Question for Post-Tribbers

[JerryShugart]

This is a question for those who believe that the rapture will not occur until after the "great tribulation" is over. Where in your time-line do you place the following event?:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).

[David Taylor]

This is a question for those who believe that the rapture will not occur until after the "great tribulation" is over. Where in your time-line do you place the following event?:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).

I believe this occurred in Zechariah's future, but in our distant past.

I venue the fulfillment of this chapter in the same time-frame and location as the N.T. writers venued it....here is where they put this passage fulfillment.


1) Nations gather at Jerusalem to battle against the Lord

Acts 4:26 "The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together"

2) The Lord Himself went forth to Jerusalem, and His feet stood on the Mount of Olives


John 8:1 "Jesus went unto the mount of Olives."

3) The result of His battle witnessed the Mountains splitting asunder.

Luke 3:5 "Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

4) And all the people would be divided in half, some to captivity, some to freedom.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

5) Because of His battle and victory over darkness, the rivers of living water flowed freely out of Jerusalem.


John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive"

6) The searching for a dwelling place that Zechariah spoke of, the one that the Feast of Tabernacles and Booths depicts, became fulfilled in Jesus Christ the permanent dwelling for God's people.

John 6:56 "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

2 Corinthians 6:16 "ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. "


The N.T. writers saw Zechariah's gradious future prophecies very clearly and literally fulfilled in the incarnation of Jesus Christ to the people of the Earth to provide the eternal dwelling, and the eternal victory through Him.

[Prophecy Countdown]

This is a question for those who believe that the rapture will not occur until after the "great tribulation" is over. Where in your time-line do you place the following event?:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).

To answer the question I have to give biblical consideration to other biblical statements as this prophecy is spoken of from many aspects as follows.

Revelation 11: 2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Zechariah 14: 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Daniel 11: 31. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matthew 24: 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

1290 days later, on the day of the Lord.

Matthew 24: 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

From the two witnesses aspect of, Revelation 11: 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Revelation 11: And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Zechariah 14: 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Same prophecy after the wedding supper Of Revelation 10 1 – 9.

Revelation 19: 11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19; And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

PC

[JerryShugart]

The N.T. writers saw Zechariah's gradious future prophecies very clearly and literally fulfilled in the incarnation of Jesus Christ to the people of the Earth to provide the eternal dwelling, and the eternal victory through Him.

During the Lord Jesus' incarnation all of the nations did not come upon Jerusalem in a battle:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).

1) Nations gather at Jerusalem to battle against the Lord

Acts 4:26 "The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together"

These words were quoted to demonstate that the prophecy from Psalms 2:6 was fulfilled when the Lord Jesus was crucified. That is why we read the following in the verse which follows the ones which you quoted:

" For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done" (Acts 4:28).

This has nothing to do with a battle which the Lord Jesus will fight against all the nations that will come against Jerusalem.

[JerryShugart]

To answer the question I have to give biblical consideration to other biblical statements as this prophecy is spoken of from many aspects as follows.

After reading your post I cannot understand when you are saying that Zechariah 14:2-4 has been fulfilled or will be fulfilled.

Could you please be more specific?

Thanks!

[divaD]

This is a question for those who believe that the rapture will not occur until after the "great tribulation" is over. Where in your time-line do you place the following event?:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).

The way I reason it is like this.

Zechariah 14:5 .........and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Me being post trib, I then have to deduce how all the saints can be with Him. Simple. As Jesus is ascending from heaven, the dead in Christ rise first, those alive and remaining, meet them in the air and are also changed into immortal bodies. And the fact that Jesus would be returning to basically the same place He ascended from 2000 years ago, He would now have all of His saints with Him, they taking over the entire planet, while specifically regaining control of the promised land, which would be in this particular area where the mount of Olives is.

[ross3421]

If you believe in post trib then you are saying that some survive the mark of the beast or hide ect.....Scripture states that all which do not receive the mark are killed except for the 144,000. Now to get around that some have stated the 144,000 includes the church which scripture does not support either.

[DurbanDude]

This is a question for those who believe that the rapture will not occur until after the "great tribulation" is over. Where in your time-line do you place the following event?:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).

I believe this is a second coming event. The day of the Lord, the "rapture", the resurrection, and the second coming, are all the same day. The half who "go forth into captivity" simply means that they leave the city before the army arrives, they go into exile. The Greek word is gowlah with a meaning more close to exile than captivity.

[ross3421]

Whether post , mid , pre ..........

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


You can't miss this one

[Prophecy Countdown]

After reading your post I cannot understand when you are saying that Zechariah 14:2-4 has been fulfilled or will be fulfilled.

Could you please be more specific?

Thanks!

Certainly, please note that capitals are used for emphasis only.
Maybe I need to point out the periods within my previous answer and use a few more verses.

As I said.
“To answer the question I have to give biblical consideration to other biblical statements as this prophecy is spoken of from many aspects as follows.” Unquote.

Firstly we can look at Revelation and see that in Revelation we have the ‘kingdom divided,’ which will only last for ‘42 months’ this kingdom was prophesied, in the book of Daniel 2: 41 to 45.I am presuming that you are familiar with the book of Daniel

Daniel 2: “And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.”
42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44. And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it SHALL STAND FOR EVER.”

Please note that in Daniel 7: 4 – 7. we have the four beasts rise up and the same four in Revelation following.
Revelation 13: “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2. And THE BEAST which I saw was like unto a LEOPARD, and his feet were as the feet of a BEAR, and his mouth as the mouth of a LION: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO CONTINUE FORTY AND TWO MONTHS.”

6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7. And it was given unto him to make WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
We are told that the Saints posses the kingdom. Now there should be no doubt about the time of these events. Daniel 7: 17. “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18. But the SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL TAKE THE KINGDOM, and POSSES THE KINGDOM FOR EVER, EVEN FOR EVER AND EVER.”

If we look closely at verses 1 to 15 of Revelation 11. we see that, verse 1. starts at the same period of 42 months.

Revelation 11: 2. “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto THE GENTILES: and the holy city shall they TREAD UNDERFOOT FORTY AND TWO MONTHS.”

Revelation 11:2 is simply referring to the same event as in Zechariah 14: 2. following verse.

“Zechariah 14: 2. FOR I WILL GATHER ALL NATIONS AGAINST JERUSALEM to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”

It is important to note that after 1260 days the two witnesses are to be murdered, in the middle of the last week, verse 7 and 3½ days later trumpet seven is blown which brings in 1 Corinthians 15: 48 – 58. resurrection time on the day of the Lord.
Revelation 11: “And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD; and their enemies beheld them. 13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.”

14. “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15. And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD world are become the KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his CHRIST; and he shall REIGN FOR AND EVER AND EVER.”

1 Corinthians 15: 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Daniel, in the following verse also refers to the same event and please note that Daniel is told by Gabriel that the vision concerns ‘the time of the end.’

Daniel 8: 16. “And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.”

We are now given another event concerned within the same ‘time of the end’ period.
Daniel 11: 31. “And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily they shall place THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKES DESOLATE.”

When asked in Matthew 24. about the signs of His second advent Jesus mentions the abomination of desolation and we are told it will be setup for only ‘1290 days,’ which also ends at the time span of the 2300 evening morning vision at trumpet seven.

Matthew 24: 15. “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matthew 24: 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:”

Time span.
Daniel 12: 11. And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

When Satan manages to scatter God’s people note the time is as follows ‘time’ equals one, times equals two and half time equals 3½ years in total and is also named ‘42 months.’

Daniel 12: 7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a TIME, TIMES, and AN HALF; and when he shall have accomplished to SCATTER THE POWER OF the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1290 days later, after the set up of the abomination of desolation, comes the day of the Lord and the end will come.

Matthew 24: 29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

From the two witnesses aspect of, Revelation 11: 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, THE BEAST that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

So we have another period of 1260 days plus 3½ days within the evening morning visions’ time span of 2300 days plus the 42 months when the Gentiles trample on Jersalem these times have different time starts but will end on the day of the Lord.

Zechariah 14: 3. “Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought IN THAT DAY of battle. 4. And his feet shall stand IN THAT DAY upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and ALL HIS SAINTS WITH THEE. 6. And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. BUT IT SHALL BE ONE DAY which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.”

After ‘the time of the end’ ends on the day of the LORD and after the wedding supper, which is on the day of the LORD of Revelation 10: 1 – 9 we have the Armageddon, battle on the same day of the LORD.

Revelation 19: 11. “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”
Revelation 19; “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Also to make absolutely sure of the time we should read the following and see the resurrection.

Daniel 12: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. 2. And many of them that SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH shall awake, some to EVERLASTING LIFE, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4. But thou, O Daniel, SHUT UP THE WORDS, AND SEAL THE BOOK, even to THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

We are promised a blessing. Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The blessing will be at the wedding supper. Revelation 19: 9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Zechariah 14 1, is when Jerusalem is attacked and verse 2. "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

That, IMHO is the battle of Amrageddon.

On that day of the Lord, the Saints will be with God, this surely is after the resurection IMHO.
verse 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Has the Mount of Olives been cleaved in two ? No.
Is the Mount of Olives still in one piece? Yes.
Is there a huge valley there? No.
Is there water pouring out of the city Jerusalem? No.
so the event of Zechariah 14 could not have taken place yet IMHO

PC

[rejoice44]

This is a question for those who believe that the rapture will not occur until after the "great tribulation" is over. Where in your time-line do you place the following event?:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).

Half of the city is in captivity right now. The Arabs possess half of Jersualem.

[quiet dove]

Half of the city is in captivity right now. The Arabs possess half of Jersualem.

But 'all' nations have not yet been gathered against Jerusalem, though we certainly can see that aspect coming clearly into focus.

[David Taylor]

During the Lord Jesus' incarnation all of the nations did not come upon Jerusalem in a battle:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).



These words were quoted to demonstate that the prophecy from Psalms 2:6 was fulfilled when the Lord Jesus was crucified. That is why we read the following in the verse which follows the ones which you quoted:

" For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done" (Acts 4:28).

This has nothing to do with a battle which the Lord Jesus will fight against all the nations that will come against Jerusalem.

I disagree Jerry. The entire world raised up against Jesus Christ as He defeated sin and death during His incarnation. There has never nor ever will be a greater battle than the one Jesus partook of for the redeemed, hanging on the cross, outside the city gates....the same city gates His very own feet walked to from the Mt of Olives just one week prior.

Both Zechariah's prophecies and the Psalms both looked forward to Jesus Christ coming to Earth, walking on the Mt of Olives and preparing for the great battle against sin on the cross, where everyone stood against Him.

While there may yet be a future literal battle at the end of time when Jesus returns from Heaven, it won't be a fulfillment of anything to do with Zechariah 14, because when He returns again, there will be no wicked, unrepentant survivors. All the wicked will be cast into the fiery furnace.

[David Taylor]

The way I reason it is like this.

Zechariah 14:5 .........and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Me being post trib, I then have to deduce how all the saints can be with Him. Simple. As Jesus is ascending from heaven, the dead in Christ rise first, those alive and remaining, meet them in the air and are also changed into immortal bodies. And the fact that Jesus would be returning to basically the same place He ascended from 2000 years ago, He would now have all of His saints with Him, they taking over the entire planet, while specifically regaining control of the promised land, which would be in this particular area where the mount of Olives is.

Verse 14:5 doesn't require people to be descending from Heaven with Jesus to fuilfill itself.

All it requires is a multitude of saints aligning with Jesus when He comes. That occurred 2000 years ago. Jesus came. The Lord God came to the Earth; and while He was here, and soon thereafter, saints joined with Him by the great multitudes unlike ever before, from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Other similar examples besides Zech 14:5 of people coming with Jesus, but having nothing to do with any group descension from Heaven....

Matthew 4:25 "And there followed him great multitudes of people"

Matthew 8:1 "When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him."

Matthew 13:2 "And great multitudes were gathered together unto him"

Matthew 15:30 "And great multitudes came unto him"

Matthew 19:2 "And great multitudes followed him"

Matthew 20:29 "And as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude followed him."

Mark 3:7 "a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea"

Mark 4:1 "and there was gathered unto him a great multitude"

Luke 14:25 "And there went great multitudes with him"

John 6:2 "And a great multitude followed him"

All of these examples future of Zechariah's prophecy; and very literally while Jesus, the Lord my God, was walking with His own feet, on and around the Mt of Olives.

Nothing in Zechariah 14 speaks of people or groups coming from Heaven, and contextually, doesn't even talk about Jesus coming from Heaven; but rather of Him being her on the Earth, fighting for the people, and fighting against the enemies of the world who raised up against Him in Jerusalem. Zechariah was a prophecy of a future day when the Lord would be incarnated into the world, and fight for the world against the wicked, and too often missed by premillennialism which wants to push Zechariah into our future, a day which Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Tabernacles with the coming of the living waters of the Holy Spirit to all mankind, when Jerusalem would never again be the central place of worship men would go to, as it was in the day of Zechariah; all of these things which He has already fulfilled at the cross.

[David Taylor]

If you believe in post trib then you are saying that some survive the mark of the beast or hide ect.....Scripture states that all which do not receive the mark are killed except for the 144,000. Now to get around that some have stated the 144,000 includes the church which scripture does not support either.

Your premise assumes that the mark of the beast is more powerful and complete than the power of Christ. Christians who are redeemed by the blood of the lamb will never take that mark. Revelation plainly tells us that those written in the Lamb's book of Life do not participate in it.

the 144K are not future, they are past. They were the firstfruits of Israel redeemed by Christ according to Revelation chapter 14. Why attempt to rip them out of their context, and make them lastfruits, at the end of time? Christ's redeemed started with the firstfruits of Israel, and then grew to include the uncountable multitude of Gentiles around the world....non of that is future; but was a panoramic span of all history from John's day forward....not a lone endtime picture.

Revelation doesn't teach anything remotely specific, clear, or plain in regards to a pre-trib anything. It's entire focus is on the Lord's return at the end, and the preservation of those whose names are written in the Lambs book of Life throughout any and all trials and tribulations that the world may throw at them.