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Thread: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

  1. #1

    The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    I believe Paul in Romans seven revealed a dual-naturism within the Christian. Our personality isn’t equated with our nature because I believe the nature determines the personality, so it’s unlike a split personality as in schizophrenia. I’ve yet to encounter scriptural support for the concept that our original nature or “old man” is eradicated at rebirth.


    “Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.” Rom 6:6, 7. Can one who is crucified still be alive? Yes and our old nature is still on the cross while simultaneously attempting to continue to rule. One has stated that the crucifixion of our old nature is like a mutiny at sea because the captain was too hideous to follow so he was chained to the mast and they began to listen to the new captain. But during the remainder of the voyage they could still hear the old captain yelling orders. Since they knew he was powerless they didn’t obey him and also knew that he would be dealt with when they get to shore.


    Sin still indwells the Christian (Rom 7:17, 18, 20, 21) but no longer as a ruler (Rom 6:12, 14). We are dead to it (Rom 6:2) but it is alive to us. This is why “The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” Gal 5:17.

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    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    You ask, "can one who is crucified still be alive?" But you lost sight of the fact that we were buried and that we live in newness of life. (Ro 6:4) I like the verse in Galatians, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
    No man can live in the flesh and in the Spirit. He chooses to sin, or he chooses not to sin. He chooses to be repentant, or he chooses not to be. He chooses to obey God, or he chooses damnation.
    Paul, in Romans 7, is speaking of his old life as a sinning Jew. He says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Ro 8:2)
    The wages of sin is death. (Ro 6:23), but Paul says, "Some men's sins are opened beforehand, going before to judgement; and some men they follow after." (I Tim 5:24) When are you going to be judged? Now, or when it is too late? The bible says that salvation is a free gift, but, it is not without cost. Give up your old self. It isn't worth saving.

  3. #3

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Hi PJW. The question can one who is crucified still be alive, refers to the old nature. It's crucified but not dead, just rendered powerless as to its reining ability. It's alive to us but we are dead to it. Rom 6:2.

  4. #4

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Not sure if we're talking about the same thing but I have believed for quite some time that there are two dwellers in this body of flesh. Me and Christ in me. I am certainly a dichotomy. I am the prodigal and the older brother, I am Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, Me and Jesus. Who can separate me from this body of death? Christ and only Christ. He is being formed in me. A Savior born in a dirty, smelly, stable. I am the stable, my heart the manger.

    I have been crucified with Christ, and I live, yet its not me but Christ that lives in me, and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who gave Himself for me.

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    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    As long as you still commit sin, you are one that doesn't love Jesus. (Jo 14:24)
    If you break Jesus' commandments, you are not Jesus' friend. (Jo 15:14)
    If you keep commiting sin, you are a servant of sin. (Jo 8:34) Jesus said "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and dispise the other. (Matt 6:24)
    Nimblewillsgrace, you write that you are crucified with Christ, (as Paul in Gal 2:20), but then "and I live". Don't you read that it is NOT you, but Jesus Christ? Has nobody told you how to destroy that "body of death"? (Ro 7:24)
    "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is FREED from sin. (Ro 6:6-7)
    Why won't you take the gift that Jesus has given to us? The gift of repentance? (Acts 5:31) (Acts 11:18) Why won't you give ALL of yourself to God? What could be so valuable that you would give up your soul for?
    The Jews wanted a saviour, but thy wanted freedom from Rome. When the Saviour came, He freed them, and US, from sin and death. (Romans 8:2)
    As for your likening yourself to a "dirty smelly stable", God doesn't reside in foul, smelly, imperfect, unsanctified, temples. They must be made holy! Repentance, baptism, then the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

  6. #6

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Quote Originally Posted by PJW View Post
    As long as you still commit sin, you are one that doesn't love Jesus. (Jo 14:24)
    If you break Jesus' commandments, you are not Jesus' friend. (Jo 15:14)
    If you keep commiting sin, you are a servant of sin. (Jo 8:34) Jesus said "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and dispise the other. (Matt 6:24)
    Nimblewillsgrace, you write that you are crucified with Christ, (as Paul in Gal 2:20), but then "and I live". Don't you read that it is NOT you, but Jesus Christ? Has nobody told you how to destroy that "body of death"? (Ro 7:24)
    "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is FREED from sin. (Ro 6:6-7)
    Why won't you take the gift that Jesus has given to us? The gift of repentance? (Acts 5:31) (Acts 11:18) Why won't you give ALL of yourself to God? What could be so valuable that you would give up your soul for?
    The Jews wanted a saviour, but thy wanted freedom from Rome. When the Saviour came, He freed them, and US, from sin and death. (Romans 8:2)
    As for your likening yourself to a "dirty smelly stable", God doesn't reside in foul, smelly, imperfect, unsanctified, temples. They must be made holy! Repentance, baptism, then the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
    What is the difference between you life and the average Christian that you know?

  7. #7

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    I believe Paul in Romans seven revealed a dual-naturism within the Christian.
    I disagree and don't find any evidence of dualism in scripture, which was correctly deemed heretical by the early church. You are you, have been you since you were born, and will be you for eternity. The addition of the Spirit to our nature changes our nature making us a renewed creature with one nature. We do not receive a completely different new nature, or have a second nature added to our nature that remains separate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    Our personality isn’t equated with our nature because I believe the nature determines the personality
    What's the difference between these two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    I’ve yet to encounter scriptural support for the concept that our original nature or “old man” is eradicated at rebirth.
    True, concerning the possibility to sin. However if the old man was not dead the new man would not be home. The old man died, allowing the new man to marry the woman. They don't live together with the woman and she is only married to one. The old is dead, meaning completely eradicated. Think about it. When you sin it is the new man not the old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    Can one who is crucified still be alive? Yes and our old nature is still on the cross while simultaneously attempting to continue to rule.
    The cross was a long time ago, and no longer exists. My one nature is right here with me, and can be no where else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    Sin still indwells the Christian (Rom 7:17, 18, 20, 21) but no longer as a ruler (Rom 6:12, 14). We are dead to it (Rom 6:2) but it is alive to us. This is why “The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” Gal 5:17.
    True. See how you went from having an old nature to calling it Sin? Sin is not a nature. True Sin is a noun in most instances you are referring to but that's because it is a desciption of our past lives, not because Sin or flesh is or can be a nature.

  8. #8

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Hi Noeb and God bless! You wrote, "When you sin it is the new man not the old."

    Wanted to share this:

    "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Rom 7:17, 20).

    I agree that you will always be you. Who we are is our identity, which remains. I believe our nature determines is what we are, this is the difference between the two. That's why I believe "the old man" and "the new man" are natures because they're not persons, like the Son or the Spirit, which is where this nature came from. (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10).

    When you were reborn, you became "partaker of the divine nature" (2Pe 1:4).

    You wrote, "The addition of the Spirit to our nature changes our nature." Our old nature or old man is what I believe Paul wrote that "is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Rom 8:7). Therefore it can not be changed but only crucified. In this case crucifixion just renders the old nature powerless as a ruler but not killed.

    There is scripture support that we are dead to sin but none for the concept that sin or the old man is dead or gone. The old man was crucified (Rom 6:6), but isn't dead.

    I believe the cross we "take up daily" (Luk 9:23) is the crucifixion power of Christ's cross, so Paul and we can say, "I am crucified with Christ." (Gal 2:20). When one accepts Christ it is then he is co-crucified with Him. His crucifixion power was supplied after He rose and is applied to the individual during transformation or rebirth and is continually appropriated. (Gal 5:24).
    Last edited by Netchaplain; Nov 27th 2011 at 04:29 PM.

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    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Dear Nimblewillsgrace,
    There is no difference between my life and that of any other "real" Christian.
    Some have different jobs, family size, height, weight, etc,. but we are all parts of the body of Christ.

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    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I disagree and don't find any evidence of dualism in scripture, which was correctly deemed heretical by the early church. You are you, have been you since you were born, and will be you for eternity. The addition of the Spirit to our nature changes our nature making us a renewed creature with one nature. We do not receive a completely different new nature, or have a second nature added to our nature that remains separate.

    What's the difference between these two?

    True, concerning the possibility to sin. However if the old man was not dead the new man would not be home. The old man died, allowing the new man to marry the woman. They don't live together with the woman and she is only married to one. The old is dead, meaning completely eradicated. Think about it. When you sin it is the new man not the old.

    The cross was a long time ago, and no longer exists. My one nature is right here with me, and can be no where else.

    True. See how you went from having an old nature to calling it Sin? Sin is not a nature. True Sin is a noun in most instances you are referring to but that's because it is a desciption of our past lives, not because Sin or flesh is or can be a nature.
    Noeb, how can you make all these statements and not cite ANY Scripture to support your position? Is this a 'sound off' forum, or one in which reasoning from the Scriptures is shared, to edify the Body at large.

    You appear to opine without Biblical knowledge, for many passages would contradict your view. If you have something Biblical to say, you should argue from the Scriptures instead of in spite of them.

    Indeed, why should I do more than dismissively say I disagree, if there is no Scripture to discuss?
    Love first, ... answer questions ... later ...

  11. #11

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    Hi Noeb and God bless! You wrote, "When you sin it is the new man not the old."

    Wanted to share this:

    "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Rom 7:17, 20).
    You aren't really suggesting that Sin is a person doing the sinning are you? Like I said, Paul is using Sin as a noun, not because it is a person or a nature, but is showing how enslaved we are and how habitual and easy it is to sin. Many of his epistles highlighted our past lives in contrast to our new life in Christ, telling us that we do not have to continue sinning because we've been buried and raised again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    I agree that you will always be you. Who we are is our identity, which remains. I believe our nature determines is what we are, this is the difference between the two.
    That's not a difference. That's a preference in how you say it. They both say the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    That's why I believe "the old man" and "the new man" are natures because they're not persons, like the Son or the Spirit, which is where this nature came from. (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10).
    Clearly they are both persons. The old man is you and your past lifestyle. The new man is Christ. Both are persons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    You wrote, "The addition of the Spirit to our nature changes our nature." Our old nature or old man is what I believe Paul wrote that "is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Rom 8:7).
    That's carnal (sarx - flesh) mind. Not just flesh and even if it was, flesh is not old nature or old man either. Fleshly minded is the way the old man thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    There is scripture support that we are dead to sin but none for the concept that sin or the old man is dead or gone. The old man was crucified (Rom 6:6), but isn't dead.
    We are dead, the old man is not, the old man was crucified but isn't dead? How exactly was the old man crucified when Christ was Christ yet he still lives? How did Christ die but those in Him remained alive? If that's true then those in Him were not raised, because they didn't die, but we know they were raised. If anyone has been born again they first died by necessity. Don't you know a seed doesn't bring forth life until it dies? Jesus and Paul said so.

    Old man is found three times. One of them describes a current fact of the believer in the salvation process, and two of them describe the past fact of the believer in the salvation process. They cannot be describing two different acts of salvation, but one. Romans 6:6 says "old man is crucified with him". Christ is not being crucified so neither can we.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    I believe the cross we "take up daily" (Luk 9:23) is the crucifixion power of Christ's cross, so Paul and we can say, "I am crucified with Christ." (Gal 2:20). When one accepts Christ it is then he is co-crucified with Him. His crucifixion power was supplied after He rose and is applied to the individual during transformation or rebirth and is continually appropriated. (Gal 5:24).
    The power of crucifixion is death. The cross kills. That's weakness on the part of the one being crucified.

    2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    The cross is made strong and power after the fact by the resurrection. The power applied to the individual at rebirth and continually is only possible because of the individuals death. If the individual is still on the cross and still dying daily he cannot partake of the divine nature by the resurrection. You must be dead to receive resurrection power.


    The cross in v23 to take up daily is this
    Luke 9:22 Saying , The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain , and be raised the third day.

  12. #12

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    Noeb, how can you make all these statements and not cite ANY Scripture to support your position? Is this a 'sound off' forum, or one in which reasoning from the Scriptures is shared, to edify the Body at large.

    You appear to opine without Biblical knowledge, for many passages would contradict your view. If you have something Biblical to say, you should argue from the Scriptures instead of in spite of them.

    Indeed, why should I do more than dismissively say I disagree, if there is no Scripture to discuss?
    No problem. What do you want scripture for and I will gladly supply.

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    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Quote Originally Posted by Netchaplain View Post
    I believe Paul in Romans seven revealed a dual-naturism within the Christian. Our personality isn’t equated with our nature because I believe the nature determines the personality, so it’s unlike a split personality as in schizophrenia. I’ve yet to encounter scriptural support for the concept that our original nature or “old man” is eradicated at rebirth.


    “Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.” Rom 6:6, 7. Can one who is crucified still be alive? Yes and our old nature is still on the cross while simultaneously attempting to continue to rule. One has stated that the crucifixion of our old nature is like a mutiny at sea because the captain was too hideous to follow so he was chained to the mast and they began to listen to the new captain. But during the remainder of the voyage they could still hear the old captain yelling orders. Since they knew he was powerless they didn’t obey him and also knew that he would be dealt with when they get to shore.


    Sin still indwells the Christian (Rom 7:17, 18, 20, 21) but no longer as a ruler (Rom 6:12, 14). We are dead to it (Rom 6:2) but it is alive to us. This is why “The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” Gal 5:17.
    The question is this: Will Satan live through us or will Christ? If we put off the Old Man and put on the New, then the latter. Otherwise, the former. So, right you are.

    The second question is this: What does it mean to change our character? Does that mean to be changed in our heart, mind and body? If we are to be pure in those respects, what is it we are to be purified from? Can that purification be indefinitely permanent, such as a change in character? If so, is that not putting to death the old self with its sin nature, love of the world and deception by the by the lies of Satan? Is that not putting on "the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness?" Ephesians 4:24.

    I tell you. There is so much confusion in the Body on these issues. But is the confusion the problem, or is it a symptom of the underlying cause? The Old Self doesn't want to die, and it's no dummy --

    15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
    If that's not having two natures or characters or selfs or, as James would have it, two souls (di-psuche) Ja 4:8, what is it? Why should Paul command us to exchange the one self for the other? Why should James admonish this way:

    purify your hearts, you double-minded.
    Love first, ... answer questions ... later ...

  14. #14

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Noeb, I wanted to comment on this: "If the individual is still on the cross and still dying daily he cannot partake of the divine nature by the resurrection."

    I believe the nature of a person is so much a part of an individual that it determines what he is, righteous or unrighteous. The new nature isn't Christ but from Him and the old nature has to be kept in check, which is why it is on the cross, not us in our new nature but us in our old nature.

  15. #15

    Re: The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

    Our nature is spirit, soul, and body. The old man died, the new man came in, and we are joined to the Lord by his spirit. Without the death of the old man there'd be no new union. It doesn't say the old man is dying. It says he is dead. Separated. Without this separation it is impossible to lawfully be joined to another. God is not committing adultery.

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