Question about being born again

[percho]

Hi Thomasmind,

Actually Jesus wasn’t born as a angel. Jesus was begotten of the Father, He was “not” and angel. Being born of water is not a reference to being born on earth it is a reference to water baptism.

YLT 1 John 5:6 This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,

What is "did come" a reference to? How is that coming relative to the water? What water? How is that coming relative to the blood? What blood?

[percho]

Yes Christ was born again. The holy spirit descended on him like a dove being the first one to recieve the Holy Spirit after having been baptised in water by John to fullfill scripture.

Act_26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

we are dead here on earth, to have the Holy Spirit enter you is Life. have you heard Christ say let the dead bury the dead. they are dead because they have not the Holy Spirit.

being born again is having the Spirit enter you like it did Christ and his apostles etc

our flesh is death, we are trapped in it, and we escape by getting life - Christ was the first

Christ was the templet that we must follow, he was subject to all the same things as us, he just did everything right.

Was not the water baptism of Jesus a symbolic prophesy of his death burial & resurrection which is the reality of the fulfilling of all righteousness?

He went down into the water and was baptized = immersed picturing Jesus being in Hades, dead and buried Acts 2:27
coming straightway out of the water = Raised from the dead by the Father receiving the promise of the hope of eternal life John 5:21,26, Titus 3:5
The Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: = Jesus receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from God the Father Acts 2:33, Titus 3:5
This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. = God the Father by the resurrection, the firstborn from the dead, declaring him his Son with power. Acts 13:33, Col 1:18, Rom 1:4

[david]

Saying water baptism as absolutely necessary for salvation is ridiculous. Let's say you received the gospel in a desert land with no water and from that point on you never had any access to water. What then? Not saved? No chance for salvation?

[Wall]

Saying water baptism as absolutely necessary for salvation is ridiculous. Let's say you received the gospel in a desert land with no water and from that point on you never had any access to water. What then? Not saved? No chance for salvation?

Its not the dunking in the water thats really being spoken of here. Its repentence

JOHN 3 [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of WATER and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

MATTHEW 3 [11] I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with THE HOLY GHOST, and with fire:

[david]

Its not the dunking in the water thats really being spoken of here. Its repentence

JOHN 3 [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of WATER and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

MATTHEW 3 [11] I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with THE HOLY GHOST, and with fire:

Agreed. So would you say dunking in physical water is required still?

[Wall]

Dont really know David. I was raise catholic sose i was baptized as a rug rat but i dont remember repenting of anything so it probably didnt take. I was probably trying to figure out why the guy in the purple robe was trying to drown me.

[Butch5]

Saying water baptism as absolutely necessary for salvation is ridiculous. Let's say you received the gospel in a desert land with no water and from that point on you never had any access to water. What then? Not saved? No chance for salvation?

It's not ridiculous at all David. If God gives a command we are to follow it to the best of our ability. If we are not able to follow then the decision lies in God's hands as to what to do. However, for us to make hypothetical situations and then ude them in an attempt to negate God's commands is disobedience.

[thomasmind]

I do not just believe in our creator, or Jesus. When I was young I had always known that there was someone there, not because of a feeling, but because of something that is unexplainable. I know that our creator exists in a place so complex that we could not possibly comprehend.

I am asking because I want to find where I fit in. Where I used to work I gave my job to a colligue of mine whom was hated by a gentlemen that happened to be a Christian minister. From there this gentlemen harassed me for about eight years. I have been married for twenty one years and my mother in law is a born again. She is constantly telling my wife that I am having an affair, but I have been faithful for longer than my wife and I have been married.

I do the right thing when no one is looking, not because I want to be saved but because doing the right things and adhearing to very strict ethics, putting all others next to me not under me as far as importance makes my life better. Doing the right things makes me happy to, simply be me. I accepted Jesus into my heart, mind, life, soul, being when I was being raised Catholic and did not know what being born again was, not competing or comparing, but because I knew for certain someone was there that I wanted to make happy.

I hear all of the time people saying, "Jesus died for us so we are saved!" But personally I do not believe that this is the case. I believe that doing the right things, or at least making an effort to do the right things is doing what God wants me to do, and living as believe in a way to make me/our unknone creator/s happy.

[notuptome]

It's not ridiculous at all David. If God gives a command we are to follow it to the best of our ability. If we are not able to follow then the decision lies in God's hands as to what to do. However, for us to make hypothetical situations and then ude them in an attempt to negate God's commands is disobedience.

Find that for me in Rom 10:9-10,13

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[notuptome]

I do not just believe in our creator, or Jesus. When I was young I had always known that there was someone there, not because of a feeling, but because of something that is unexplainable. I know that our creator exists in a place so complex that we could not possibly comprehend.

I am asking because I want to find where I fit in. Where I used to work I gave my job to a colligue of mine whom was hated by a gentlemen that happened to be a Christian minister. From there this gentlemen harassed me for about eight years. I have been married for twenty one years and my mother in law is a born again. She is constantly telling my wife that I am having an affair, but I have been faithful for longer than my wife and I have been married.

I do the right thing when no one is looking, not because I want to be saved but because doing the right things and adhearing to very strict ethics, putting all others next to me not under me as far as importance makes my life better. Doing the right things makes me happy to, simply be me. I accepted Jesus into my heart, mind, life, soul, being when I was being raised Catholic and did not know what being born again was, not competing or comparing, but because I knew for certain someone was there that I wanted to make happy.

I hear all of the time people saying, "Jesus died for us so we are saved!" But personally I do not believe that this is the case. I believe that doing the right things, or at least making an effort to do the right things is doing what God wants me to do, and living as believe in a way to make me/our unknone creator/s happy.

You do well to believe these things but so do the demons. James 2:19, Acts 19:15

To be saved and have forgivness for all your sin one must believe according to Romans 10:9-10, 13

Good works are fine but they cannot save. Eph 2:8-10 We are saved by grace through faith and not of works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[thomasmind]

Oh my, Thank you all of you for your responses!

I have learned so very much. I have to say that I understand everything that you are saying on one level or another, and now I understand truly what I have misunderstood about the term being born again. Perhaps the people in my life do simply not understand they have to believe, accept and let Jesus into their hearts. People try to be saved by doing good acts, but it is the fact that Jesus died for us that allows us to be saved, so if someone does not believe and just, does good acts to sort of like pass a test they are not saved. It is the grace of Jesus and our belief in him that shows us the way to acts of good, and not our own personal effort. I think I have always felt this but never really recognized it. I think I found Edgar Allen Poe’s class of fancies; in digging for this I think this might be the best way to describe what being born again actually means. You believe, Jesus shows you because you believe, you do good actions because of his will not your own, because you believe.

To expand upon this, if I told you I can do electrical work and you believe me, then I show you, it will be a reality and you would give my number to others to do work in their homes. If I tell you that I built this electrical panel and all of the lights work and everything I will still have to prove myself. Belief is the essential first step. Just saying, “yea he can do electrical work” and walking away with the knowledge that I can really does not mean much. If someone does not really truly and honestly believe in Jesus there is no way they can really dedicate themselves to his work because it is their own will that has to push it along.

I think the baptism thing is important as a symbol, because we need these things to mark new beginnings, if these symbols were not there; perhaps to many, there would be no real change, or understanding, or recognition of what has been given to us.

Also; since we could never understand the complexity of Jesus and God in this lifetime we can understand that Jesus and God are one; this makes an infinite complexity a bit more understandable, or that is how things work in Heaven. On this I also think that many things in the Bible need to be recognized as the fact that over two thousand years ago there were not words to describe many things, therefore things like ambiguity, symbolism, objectivity must be used for everyone to understand.

Pardon me but this post is gonna be another long post but I do think it is important since you have dedicated your time to help me.

If any of you have ever wondered if your actually doing Gods work, you all are. I have to say that as I have been reading over all of this stuff, and first confused it makes sense to me now. I do still have a few quirky beliefs left that will never go away because I think (no one knows) that our God is so complex we will never really understand so very many things. But I am coming to realize that perhaps I am a Christian. Because of the people in my life I have thought that no matter what I did there was no hope, they, preacher, and people that go to church every Sunday while I prayed in my home, were saved no matter what and I was not. So I just did things as I thought God would want me to do anyway, minus the drama, control, competition, and politics of human interaction. Now my hope has been restored in the fact that it is not that even if I do the right things I am still not wanted.

Most people reject me and tell me no matter what religion, and it is many, that I am lost. Not feeling wanted and alone is something that I have quite grown accustomed to. The only saving quality from it though is my ability for separation, which was a bitter gift from my adopted sister whom considered my not to be her brother when she found we were adopted. Because of this there is no reason to worry about forgiving people when they simply are not in my life making me miserable. Perhaps it has been a circle for me because from there people really have been a nasty bunch, so for most of my life I have been trying to find out the truth. I have spent many many many years asking for vision and wisdom, and though I have an ability to see people for who they really are I still want to really understand as much as my little brain can about God. The actions of people in my life have just prevented it until now.

I half heartedly expected my question to be answered by outrage and rejection as normally happens. Thank you for your understanding; and with your understanding I am now more understanding. I no longer feel quite as much of a total and complete outcast as I have felt all of my life.

God bless all of you!
Thank you!

Thomas

[thomasmind]

You do well to believe these things but so do the demons. James 2:19, Acts 19:15

To be saved and have forgivness for all your sin one must believe according to Romans 10:9-10, 13

Good works are fine but they cannot save. Eph 2:8-10 We are saved by grace through faith and not of works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree completely with you Roger. I do however see people as demons, and in your statement I see that you do too. But this is because of how people usually treat me and judge me without really knowing me. The question is how do you automatically assume that I do not believe according to Romans 10:9-10.13 ? You responded while I was writing to thank everyone, I guess, since I am judged as demon I am not saved even if I believe so much to know God is as real as the Earth and as it is not me doing the right thing but Jesus's will.

Thanks for straightening me out...

[notuptome]

I agree completely with you Roger. I do however see people as demons, and in your statement I see that you do too. But this is because of how people usually treat me and judge me without really knowing me. The question is how do you automatically assume that I do not believe according to Romans 10:9-10.13 ? You responded while I was writing to thank everyone, I guess, since I am judged as demon I am not saved even if I believe so much to know God is as real as the Earth and as it is not me doing the right thing but Jesus's will.

Thanks for straightening me out...

Well if you wish to judge then help yourself but what I said was that one must believe according to what Gods word reveals about Christ. I never said that people are demons, its just not there. The demons know full well Who Christ is but are not saved. Perhaps I misunderstood but it seemed that you were downplaying the vicarious death of Christ and playing up the works of righteousness that you have done.

Any man who is saved is saved by grace through faith and not by works. Grace cannot be earned and faith comes by hearing the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[episkopos]

Well if you wish to judge then help yourself but what I said was that one must believe according to what Gods word reveals about Christ. I never said that people are demons, its just not there. The demons know full well Who Christ is but are not saved. Perhaps I misunderstood but it seemed that you were downplaying the vicarious death of Christ and playing up the works of righteousness that you have done.

Any man who is saved is saved by grace through faith and not by works. Grace cannot be earned and faith comes by hearing the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What, pray tell is vicarious about the death of Christ? Don't we also die in Him in order to be raised in Him?

[John 8:32]

Not saying that it is an absolute requirement because I don't think it is, but I think one should be baptized if at all possible. Christ's instruction to the eleven...

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.