Adam and Eve

[jesse]

It seems like the general sentiment of some of these posts is that if "Sons of God" refers to angels in one spot it must refer to them every time the phrase is used. Which is simply not true. And even if that was the case, you would probably use the rule of first use. Which means that the way a word or phrase is used the first time, is the meaning that is applied every time it is used. That leaves a lot to be desired. And it would seem as though "Sons of God" would then mean "men who believed in God" throughout, which seems inaccurate because in Job it appears to refer to angels.

[jesse]

One more quick note.

For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:13-14

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Galatians 3:26:27

You may feel like these verses do not apply because they are written in Greek not Hebrew but the ideas, as far as the words themselves are concerned, are identical. A male descendent of God. Same exact idea. Surely i am not an angel?!

[otis lilly]

It seems like the general sentiment of some of these posts is that if "Sons of God" refers to angels in one spot it must refer to them every time the phrase is used. Which is simply not true. And even if that was the case, you would probably use the rule of first use. Which means that the way a word or phrase is used the first time, is the meaning that is applied every time it is used. That leaves a lot to be desired. And it would seem as though "Sons of God" would then mean "men who believed in God" throughout, which seems inaccurate because in Job it appears to refer to angels.

not in my opinion, in my opinion sons of god is used to represent both, it is fact it is written. and we see it. it is obvious that sons of god does not mean angels every time, in fact at this time i can only say it does once for sure. but it does once, thats the fact. and it could for genisis also. it is not clear in king james bible what is meant. it could be just men.

how many of you want to admit there were abnormalities in the so called pure gene pool of only decendants of adam and eve.
cant have it both ways, one birthing another after thier likeness, but whats wrong now. we are getting bigger people, in fact really big people
Deut 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
Og---20" standard cubit = about 15 feet tall sounds extreme 12" short cubit 9 feet tall "his bed". is that a giant?????? he as a man was probably 8' short cubit measuring but short cubits would not make goliath a giant at all would it.
short cubit on goliath would only be 6' 9" are basketball players today giants? big men yes, giants i think not. tall enough to make every soldier afraid of him. long cubit== 10 ft 9 inches thats a giant
1 Sam 17:4 And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.

cant have people changing size so fast that they are considered giants in Genisis, and then just saying genetically everything ok, but they are considerably larger.
But I agree it does not say angels are the sons of god in genisis, in exact words, so lets let that possibility go for now.

hey anyone notice someone missing from this
Genesis
5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
hmmm. the slower and better i read, the more i find missing, can anything be read into what isnt in the bible, or just the very words in it?

[jesse]

You do realize that all of creation was changed in the fall which took place during Adams lifetime right? Sin entered into the world and changed everything. Most likely the gene pool was no different. I meant to say this a couple days ago but kept forgetting. I must admit i still have no idea what you are getting at in the broader scope of your questionings. But I just wanted to help you sort things out.

[otis lilly]

You do realize that all of creation was changed in the fall which took place during Adams lifetime right? Sin entered into the world and changed everything. Most likely the gene pool was no different. I meant to say this a couple days ago but kept forgetting. I must admit i still have no idea what you are getting at in the broader scope of your questionings. But I just wanted to help you sort things out.

ok jesse, i will take the bait.
help me sort it out, please.
what changed in the fall that happened in Adams lifetime?
Sin entered and changed what? as far as pertaining to the original topic.
there apears to be 3 original questions
#1 where the people in the land of nod "could" have came from as OT. was it cain and his sister or not.
#2 if there were genetic abnormalities?
#3 and from the last line if there could have been others created but not mentioned?

to do so , we need to explore the information that is given to us, and decide what relates to what. and all components of each.
(a) if these people could be the "daughters of men"
(b) every usage of the word giant in the bible is distastful and they are killed.
(c) also obviously cain was so distastfull, he fails to even make it into his fathers generation list, though he is the next eldest son. Though we are not suppose to read anything into the bible it does not say but............... he obvoiusly lost his birthright,
(d) giants from Human only, and then thier continued existance would be Microevolution would it not? Proving genetic anomilies, and fractures. wow almost irrefutable proof of what many say is impossible.

we are simply exploring possibilities, and unless they can be ruled out, they are ligitimate possibilities. I am not saying anything is, thats the purpose of discussion,
many people dont accept things because someone said things changed, because it is, and it just does.
help us discover why you came to your conclusion. so we can have all the information on the table to make ours, thanks.

[jesse]

I am not trying to bait you. Genesis 3:20 would seem to indicate the answer to question #3.

[David Taylor]

What do you mean by "occultic myth"?

Thanks,

Mark

The occultic myth of Angels, Demons, Devils, etc... mating with humans, to created mythical hybrid species of beasts, tainted geneologies, non-human Anakims, Kenites, or Nephilim, Lilith hoaxes, Satan/Eve children, Iccubus and Succubus, etc....

[David Taylor]

So.... do you say that you do not think that the "sons of God" are fallen angels?? (Just want to clarify that)

'Sons of God' in Genesis 6 are simply men, human beings; as are the 'daughters of men'....the context is only of human beings in that chapter, and why the Earth was destroyed because of evil human decisions to reject God on a world-wide, grand (all but 8) scale.

Nothing in scripture tells us anything of fallen angels mating with humans and procreating hybrid angel/human children...this is occultic myth; not sound biblical truth.

David: What is your take on Angels in general ??

'Angels' are just one of many created species made by God. Angels, Humans, Butterflies, Hippos, etc...are all created species by God, for His will and purposes. Species are not designed by God to interbreed and procreate outside of their species. An Angel can no more mate and procreate offspring with a human being, than an angel can mate and procreate offspring with hippos; or a human can mate and procreate offspring with butterflies.

Do you think Angels are "occultic myth" ??

No, Angels are not occultic myths. Angels are just one of many species within God's creation.

Unfortunately, many false occultic myths have been misapplied and attached to them that is biblically unwarranted and often stands against the design and will of God as described in the Bible.

[David Taylor]

Mr taylor, i am just trying to understand, and i appriciate your help. the ones i am speaking of are weather all the rest are in order or not are both in the first day and the shout is between them, as if to celebrate them being formed in heaaven. I think it clearly defines when the sons of men shouted i have read it many times, and hope you can provide me help in what i am missing.
Job
38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

38:8 Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb?

38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

38:10 And brake up for it my decreed [place], and set bars and doors,

38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

he is clearly asking where were you in day 1, in my opinion. and if you didnt hear the sons of god shout you were not there. in fact there is not a single line of 38 that is in the time of people, i think thats the point of it, in its entirity. its asking where were man when i made it all. but sons of god were there to shout, because he said so.
he clearly calls angels sons of god here in my opinion. i ask you to humor me and read Job 38 again in its entirity and decide if in this text he is calling angels sons of god. yes or no

Job 38 does not solely re-describe only the events of day 1 of creation. It is a overall summary of Creation; not limited to day one.

The dividing of the firmanent on day 2.
The separation of the water constraining it with the land was day 3.
verses 31-33 speak of the establishments of the galaxies, which was day 4.

Nothing in the Bible tells us on which day of creation angels were made, but we do know from the Psalms that they were apart of creation, and that they were completed by the 7th day.

But digressing, even if the intent of Job of the useage of the phrase 'sons of god' in this passage is to denote angels; that has nothing to do with the useage of the phrase 'sons of god' in Genesis, John, Romans, Philippians, and I John where the context of the phrase 'sons of God' is used to denote human beings.

Nothing in Job 38 warrants or requires 'sons of God' to only be angels within Job 38, and even if it did for Job 38; nothing in Job 38 or anywhere else in the Bible give the context of 'sons of God' to be anything other than human beings.

[David Taylor]

how many of you want to admit there were abnormalities in the so called pure gene pool of only decendants of adam and eve.

Here is where you start to faulter.
Following Adam and Eve's sin, their casting out of the Garden of Eden, and God leveling the curse of sin and death upon them and also upon all human beings after them; then there was no pure gene pool.

For a small time in the garden, prior to sinning, Adam and Eve were of a perfect gene pool.

After that, noone was of a perfect gene pool.

Whether someone was tall, fat, skinny, blind, cancerous, lepers, or whatever...all humankind was cursed by sin.

cant have it both ways, one birthing another after thier likeness, but whats wrong now. we are getting bigger people, in fact really big people
Deut 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
Og---20" standard cubit = about 15 feet tall sounds extreme 12" short cubit 9 feet tall "his bed". is that a giant?????? he as a man was probably 8' short cubit measuring but short cubits would not make goliath a giant at all would it.
short cubit on goliath would only be 6' 9" are basketball players today giants? big men yes, giants i think not. tall enough to make every soldier afraid of him. long cubit== 10 ft 9 inches thats a giant
1 Sam 17:4 And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.

These were very unusual human beings; just like it was very unusual for us to consider that Noah lived many hundreds of years; or that Sarah gave birth at 100 years old.

Nothing here substantiates or requires mythical angelic breeding with humans.

Of modern times, we have had human beings 9 feet tall with Robert Wadlow, much closer to the size of Og and Goliath (again who the scriptures say were men not angels or hybrids).

cant have people changing size so fast that they are considered giants in Genisis, and then just saying genetically everything ok, but they are considerably larger.
But I agree it does not say angels are the sons of god in genisis, in exact words, so lets let that possibility go for now.

hey anyone notice someone missing from this
Genesis
5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
hmmm. the slower and better i read, the more i find missing, can anything be read into what isnt in the bible, or just the very words in it?

Context can allow sound understanding that is not conflicted with other scripture to occur.

We can read into Genesis 5:1-3 more than just Adam, Eve, and Seth being the human lineage; because we know from Genesis 4's context, that Cain, Abel, and at least some of the people from the land of Nod also existed; which chapter 5's summary doesn't mention.

We have no license however, to embed occultic myth into any scriptures, where context doesn't warrant it.

[jesse]

I find it very interesting how God says he made everything and because we sinned the earth was cursed. And we see all sorts of terrible problems come from sin, mutations if you want to call them that or Micro-evolution if you will. It is because of sin that we have all these problems and yet scientists in the wisdom of this age claim that...

1. There is no God. (not all scientists but that is the main idea put forth)
2. The effects of sin are actually where we came from (sin becomes the replacement for God).

They claim we were born from what we know is the effect of sin! WOW! How obvious is that! It seems like satan is reading the bible and just saying the opposite all day long and building doctrines from it. It is no different than reading that God breathed the breath of life into Adam and then turning around and trying to get people to smoke. Of course he wants to attack the most basic things we have!

[otis lilly]

I feel that you are dwelling on this "occultic myth" longer than i have, i am moving forward with my exploration into the truth. but i again am recieving a multitude of text from you and most going in circles. I am sorry i am a simpleton. i see you give me a answer for #3
yet you are skirting a direct answer for #2

Here is where you start to faulter.
Following Adam and Eve's sin, their casting out of the Garden of Eden, and God leveling the curse of sin and death upon them and also upon all human beings after them; then there was no pure gene pool.
For a small time in the garden, prior to sinning, Adam and Eve were of a perfect gene pool.
After that, noone was of a perfect gene pool.
Whether someone was tall, fat, skinny, blind, cancerous, lepers, or whatever...all humankind was cursed by sin.

I have not faltered at all, as i am only introducing ideas for discussion, not an iron clad belief. i have not said it is, simply could it be?
You, are the one that from my reading says, Gods curse to adam and eve was them loosing a perfect gene pool, whereas if not perfect there could be mutations, aka microevolution, of said heirs of them became the so called giants.
this sir, is a very very likely senerio. but are we to be so fast as assuming this, before other ideas can be excluded. i say not so fast.
I am now exporing the possibility of it just being man, but to do this there are assumtions i have to make.
like the fact that scripture says noahs lines are pure, i dont know exact scripture this second am am late for work ( good thing i am the boss lol)
now noahs lines would be forward and backward , would you not agree. from seth
but then cain and his lines is obviously not. so daughters from his side makes sence.
i am not swearing on a belief yet you see, i am not an enemy of the truth, i am just a seeker of it.
but i am still working it out. untill i understand every verse and word, i do not understand.
that is the problem , and so many religions, they accept the bible as to the line, and every line to itself.
untill it can be excluded, its included as possibility.
sons of man is used to describe 2 creations, this we agree, one of them you say is only used once, i am leaning this way as well. but
it could be used twice, its the possibility i dont understand yet. the key is the giants. to understand one is the other. you act as if i am screamming the angels the angels , when that is not the case i am asking for help excluding them from possibility, but we cant, yet the term was used once so it is in fact a term used to describe them. thats where i draw the line, a possible, no more. that is a dead end and cannot be explored no more without more information, either way. so now i start looking another direction.
I feel that you think i am against you, but i am not. i am searching for the truth. in searching i am against noone, but if someone has drawn iron clad conclusions in which they have not explored every possibility and want me to swallow thier belief because they say so, and cant with a certainty answer my questions, then they my friend are against me i seek only the truth. but when i am asked why i believe something, i will be able to say exactly what, and exactly why i believe what i believe. and when asked why i dont believe another way i will have chased it to the root as well, and can testify to that.
I gotta go, if someone can help me pursue every possibility to an end, then an end there will be. and untill it is obtained there is no end of possibilitys.
if there are even 2 possibilitys, in only one is the truth.

late or not couldnt find myself leaving with a open statement
genesis 6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.
posted it next post but may be missed, so edited here

[otis lilly]

late or not couldnt find myself leaving with a open statement
genesis 6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.

[David Taylor]

ok jesse, i will take the bait.
help me sort it out, please.
what changed in the fall that happened in Adams lifetime?
Sin entered and changed what? as far as pertaining to the original topic.
there apears to be 3 original questions
#1 where the people in the land of nod "could" have came from as OT. was it cain and his sister or not.

Since the scriptures tell us in multiple places that all human beings descended from Adam and Eve, contectually we can know that the people from the land of Nod were of some relationship to Cain. Because of the advanced lifespans of early man, and because the scriptures don't tell us what year cain or abel were born, and how many other children were born during that timeframe, we don't know if Cain's wife was a sister, a neice, or a grand-neice. All we can know, is that they were all humans, who all descended from Adam and Eve.

#2 if there were genetic abnormalities?

There were genetic abnormalities with every part of creation following the fall, because God cursed creation with the introduction of sin, and death was the result to all people and animals thereafter.

#3 and from the last line if there could have been others created but not mentioned?

Only 2 human beings, according to the scriptures, were created. Adam and Eve. All human beings, according to the scriptures, descended from those first two human creations.

to do so , we need to explore the information that is given to us, and decide what relates to what. and all components of each.
(a) if these people could be the "daughters of men"

All Daughters of men or sons of God from Genesis 6 were decsended from Adam and Eve.

(b) every usage of the word giant in the bible is distastful and they are killed.

Irrelevant to merit conconcting a theory that since all giants were depicted as evil, all giants must be the result of human/angel breeding.
Most if not all of the references to Philistines and Babylonians in the bible are also depicted as distastful or evil; but we don't go around making a leap of logic to speculate that all Philistines and all Babylonians were angel hybrids.

(c) also obviously cain was so distastfull, he fails to even make it into his fathers generation list, though he is the next eldest son. Though we are not suppose to read anything into the bible it does not say but............... he obvoiusly lost his birthright,

Cain was not listed in Adam's Geneology, because Adam's Geneologies given in scripture are to show the geneologies of 3 specific people....Noah, Abraham, and Jesus. Cain was not direct ancestor of Noah, nor Abraham, nor Jesus; therefore his exclusion from the geneology. Nothing more sinister than that.

(d) giants from Human only, and then thier continued existance would be Microevolution would it not? Proving genetic anomilies, and fractures. wow almost irrefutable proof of what many say is impossible.

Item (d) doesn't really make any sense. There were genetic anomolies and fractures within every human being; there has never been any pure genetic lineages; and the only two people who started out as pure prior to when God cursed creation with sin and death, subsequently were also made applicable to that same fractured curse upon their bodies and their childrens bodies.

Nothing in any of this gives any sound biblical support for embracing the occultic myth of angels mating with humans and producing offspring.

[David Taylor]

like the fact that scripture says noahs lines are pure, i dont know exact scripture this second am am late for work ( good thing i am the boss lol)

There is no scripture. This too, is a fairly popular myth...Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel teach this type of stuff; that the Sethites were pure and the Ken(Cain)ites were wicked by lineage; not by choice or individual responsibility.

Nothing in Genesis tells us that Cain's or any other child of Adam's lineage was pure or wicked.

We do know from Genesis, that all of mankind by the time of Noah, was wicked, except for 8 people; and of those 8 people we only know that 4/16ths of their lineage came specifically from Seth....the bible doesn't tell us the other 12/16th lineage of the Noah-8.

now noahs lines would be forward and backward , would you not agree. from seth
but then cain and his lines is obviously not. so daughters from his side makes sence.

The Noah-8 are the only lineages (more than one here, not just one), that go forward and backward from the flood. We don't know if all 16 ancestorial lineages of the Noah-8 go back through Seth or not; and even if we did, it doesn't cause us to create the notion of evil lineages vs righteous lineages; because lineages cannot be wicked or righteous; individual people make their own decisisons to follow God or not.

I feel that you think i am against you, but i am not. i am searching for the truth. in searching i am against noone

That is good for I am not against you either. I too am searching for the truth; and I also will stand on the truth when false myths and bad teachings arise. I am quite familiar with all of the human/angel mating teachings, and just realize I am standing against those bad teachings, not against you personally.

late or not couldnt find myself leaving with a open statement
genesis 6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.
posted it next post but may be missed, so edited here

Realize that this doesn't mean that Noah's ancestorial or descendatal lineages were perfect....but rather, Noah himself, was considered perfect (or faithful righteous more appropriately than how we tend to define 'perfect' today) in relation to his generations of neighbors that surrounded him at the time of the flood, who all were wicked and not walking with God.