Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[keyzer soze]

What does the term, "out of context" mean exactly? Doesn't this term hold true with every single statement made by everyone who has a difference of opinion then you do about a meaning? If you and I read the same words and come away thinking it means 2 different things then the only options are: 1 of us is reading it out of context or both of us are reading it out of context. I don't get why you continue to say this. Yes, I believe that God elects. Yes I believe that we TRULY BELONG in HELL and not heaven therefore if God chooses to elect a number of people less then everyone, He may do so justly. I believe there is glory in God's attribute of PERFECT JUSTICE that will be displayed when humans that He loves dearly are separated from Him in hell. When we see how much God loves even the lost, and they are in hell, there will be glory in that attribute of God.

I also believe in man's responsibility to believe in God. I believe this is a paradox on THIS side of heaven that will go away at the end of time. So I am not saying that from our perspective that we don't choose to believe, we DO.

There has been a lot of good stuff posted here and I have read and reflected on a good deal of it. However, I still believe that salvation is totally a GIFT from God out of Grace and that I amount to nothing without Him including my desire to accept Him. Do I understand why others reject Him? No. But do I think I am in any way more deserving to be saved in the eyes of God than the lost? No. It is a total mystery to me that I have faith. I am thankful for it, I love God for it and I thank Him for it every day. Do I feel LESS love for Him because I think He gave it to me? No.

[Butch5]

We have totally drifted away from my original OP to begin with. I started out by asking essentially how does the paradox of election and free-will work with the concept of making a decision to accept Christ and has turned into something different. I obviously believe in election, I have stated that over and over, not sure what else you want me to say about it that I haven't already said. I posted a number of verses with the word ELECTION in it to back why I believe this.

I also believe in election my friend, it's a Biblical doctrine. The issue is what the Scriptures teach about election. That is where context is of the utmost importance. It's my contention that the Calvinist view of election is untenable when understood in context. I'll go back and find the Scripture passages that you posted and we can look at them in context.

[keyzer soze]

OK, this is David speaking. Again, where does this passage give any indication that this is a universal concept? The two passages are Prophets speaking of themselves, how is that universal?

Nothing in the Bible is written about or to me. God has never spoken directly to me except through His word in the Bible. Are you suggesting that I am not subject to anything in the Bible at all? What percent of the Bible has anything to do with me then?

[keyzer soze]

I also believe in election my friend, it's a Biblical doctrine. The issue is what the Scriptures teach about election. That is where context is of the utmost importance. It's my contention that the Calvinist view of election is untenable when understood in context. I'll go back and find the Scripture passages that you posted and we can look at them in context.

Who's context are you going to use? Your church's teaching? Is that the only context handed down from God or something?

I am not claiming to be a Calvin backer by the way. But if Calvin was here putting these verses into "his context" would you tell him that he was out of context? Isn't context a pretty relative thing?

[Butch5]

What does the term, "out of context" mean exactly? Doesn't this term hold true with every single statement made by everyone who has a difference of opinion then you do about a meaning? If you and I read the same words and come away thinking it means 2 different things then the only options are: 1 of us is reading it out of context or both of us are reading it out of context. I don't get why you continue to say this. Yes, I believe that God elects. Yes I believe that we TRULY BELONG in HELL and not heaven therefore if God chooses to elect a number of people less then everyone, He may do so justly. I believe there is glory in God's attribute of PERFECT JUSTICE that will be displayed when humans that He loves dearly are separated from Him in hell. When we see how much God loves even the lost, and they are in hell, there will be glory in that attribute of God.

I also believe in man's responsibility to believe in God. I believe this is a paradox on THIS side of heaven that will go away at the end of time. So I am not saying that from our perspective that we don't choose to believe, we DO.

There has been a lot of good stuff posted here and I have read and reflected on a good deal of it. However, I still believe that salvation is totally a GIFT from God out of Grace and that I amount to nothing without Him including my desire to accept Him. Do I understand why others reject Him? No. But do I think I am in any way more deserving to be saved in the eyes of God than the lost? No. It is a total mystery to me that I have faith. I am thankful for it, I love God for it and I thank Him for it every day. Do I feel LESS love for Him because I think He gave it to me? No.

The issue of context is simply understanding the text as meant by the original author. For instance Romans 9, Paul clearly starts that chapter by telling his readers that he is speaking about the Israelites, yet the Calvinist takes that passage and universally applies it to Christians. That is taking Scripture out of context.

[keyzer soze]

The issue of context is simply understanding the text as meant by the original author. For instance Romans 9, Paul clearly starts that chapter by telling his readers that he is speaking about the Israelites, yet the Calvinist takes that passage and universally applies it to Christians. That is taking Scripture out of context.

So Paul writes his epistles to individual churches of the age, are we to take nothing away from that? Should the bible be shrank down to 15 pages with only the verses that include the world ALL or WORLD in them?

[Butch5]

Who's context are you going to use? Your church's teaching? Is that the only context handed down from God or something?

I am not claiming to be a Calvin backer by the way. But if Calvin was here putting these verses into "his context" would you tell him that he was out of context? Isn't context a pretty relative thing?

No, context isn't relative at all. The author only had one thing in mind when he wrote. Paul in writing Romans 9 didn't expect all of his readers to come to a different conclusion. That's why I went back to the promise in the other post. Paul makes mention of a promise, so to understand what he means we need to understand what the promise was that he was speaking of. We can't expect to correctly understand what Paul is talking about if we have no idea of what the promise is that he's speaking of. That is context.

[Butch5]

So Paul writes his epistles to individual churches of the age, are we to take nothing away from that? Should the bible be shrank down to 15 pages with only the verses that include the world ALL or WORLD in them?

Not at all, we should read the Scriptures, seek to understand them the way the original audience did and make application of the concepts that we learn from them.

[keyzer soze]

So how does Chapter 9 and all the election talk pertain to the Israelite's and not us?

If a Calvinist were to debate you, would he say that YOU are taking the verses out of context?

[RollTide21]

Not at all, we should read the Scriptures, seek to understand them the way the original audience did and make application of the concepts that we learn from them.

So are we to scrap all of Psalms 139?

Here are versess 1-12 of Psalm 139:

1 You have searched me, LORD,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, LORD, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

What else is David only applying to himself in those verses?

[Bandit]

Bandit, did I miss your example you were going to provide?

No. Bandit has been busy (aka lazy) and has not provided the example. I am still working it through my head, and have had other distractions (alien abduction, big-foot sighting, you know, typical stuff). But I will be off work all day tomorrow, so I have run out of excuses!

[Butch5]

So are we to scrap all of Psalms 139?

Here are verses 1-12 of Psalm 139:

1 You have searched me, LORD,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, LORD, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

What else is David only applying to himself in those verses?

No, we don't scrap anything, but, we also don't randomly assume anything. There is nothing in this passages that says God forms and knows every person in the womb. I could say, I live in America, I have the right to free speech, if have the right to a jury of my peers, I have the freedom to worship where I choose, I can choose where I work, I can choose what I do for a living, I live in Georgia. Ok, would we apply all of these to every single American? Obviously not. All of these apply to every American except the last one. So, do we Scrap all of it simple because one piece doesn't apply universally to all Americans? Do we say none of it applies because all of it doesn't apply? Not at all. Well, David gives a list of things, some of which apply to believers, however, that doesn't necessitate that they all do.

[Bandit]

Based on what? If Touto is nueter and must match, yet there is not another neuter, what grammatical rule states that all of the clauses must be accepted as the target of the neuter?

Hey Butch,

All I can offer is that a Greek professor I met online told me this was the case. I am not an expert on Greek, but I understand this to be the case (and this is not 1st year stuff as far as I know). I suspect there are other examples of such things, but I would not be the one to ask for them. And such a thing does seem to pull this verse (Eph 2:8) in line with much of the rest of scripture.

[Butch5]

So how does Chapter 9 and all the election talk pertain to the Israelite's and not us?

If a Calvinist were to debate you, would he say that YOU are taking the verses out of context?

Paul states it right there in Romans 9. He even speaks of Jacob and Esau. Neither of them ever Christians. And, he give the purpose of the election, the elder shall serve the younger.

[Butch5]

Hey Butch,

All I can offer is that a Greek professor I met online told me this was the case. I am not an expert on Greek, but I understand this to be the case (and this is not 1st year stuff as far as I know). I suspect there are other examples of such things, but I would not be the one to ask for them. And such a thing does seem to pull this verse (Eph 2:8) in line with much of the rest of scripture.

Thanks , Bandit

I would like to the rule that would do this. I agree that salvation is the gift here but I would really like to know the rule.