Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[keyzer soze]

Exactly. Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ currently is sovereign (has authority) over "all things" including "every name that is named" (Eph 1:19-22). Does that mean everyone obeys Him and He makes everyone do what He wants? No. So, the Calvinistic definition of sovereignty does not match the scriptural definition.

say what? please define the scriptural def of sovereign and calvinistic def of the sovereignty of God and explain in plain engish the difference

the def given above is the dictionary def, not scriptural.

[keyzer soze]

some bible verses on the matter

rev 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

jer 32:17 “Ah, Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.

psa 103:19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.

rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

[John146]

say what? please define the scriptural def of sovereign and calvinistic def of the sovereignty of God and explain in plain engish the difference

the def given above is the dictionary def, not scriptural.

Eph 1:19-22 is not scriptural? Do you believe Jesus is sovereign over all things? Is that not what the following passages indicate:

Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Despite Jesus being sovereign over all things that does not mean everyone does what He wants. Isn't the Calvinistic definition of the sovereignty of God that everything that happens is His will? Since Jesus being sovereign over all things doesn't result in everyone doing what He wants that means that man can choose to either accept Christ and obey Him or reject Him. Does the Calvinistic definition of the sovereignty of God say that man uses his free will to choose whether to accept Christ or not or does it say that salvation is entirely up to God's choice? It says it is entirely God's choice and not man's, right? So, you tell me which one is scriptural.

[John146]

some bible verses on the matter

rev 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

jer 32:17 “Ah, Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.

psa 103:19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.

rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

And what do you think these verses are saying about God's sovereignty? To me, they show that He is the Creator and without Him nothing would be here. So, He makes the rules. He is in charge. Everyone owes their lives and their loyalty to Him. But what it doesn't say is that He controls literally everything and doesn't give man the responsibility to choose who to serve.

[BoB/335]

so you don't think the animal sacrifices ordered by God were a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice to come?

Did I say that somewhere?

[keyzer soze]

And what do you think these verses are saying about God's sovereignty? To me, they show that He is the Creator and without Him nothing would be here. So, He makes the rules. He is in charge. Everyone owes their lives and their loyalty to Him. But what it doesn't say is that He controls literally everything and doesn't give man the responsibility to choose who to serve.

it doesn't say that man doesn't have responsibility, that is you who keeps pounding that drum. but it does say that God is in FULL control and does elect. somehow they both are true whether you can wrap your mind around it or not. just because you can't understand something doesn't make it untrue to God. that is pretty much the entire theme and point of the story of Job's life.

[BoB/335]

Hi Bob,

In that statement I was giving the understanding of the Early church. The modern understanding of the Christ's sacrifice, in my opinion borders on blasphemy. To say that Christ was sacrificed to appease the wrath of God, portrays God in the same light as the pagan gods, does it not? The pagans sacrificed their children to their gods to appease and gain favor with them. The modern Christian understanding does the same, does it not? It simply places Christ as the sacrifice. It's rather odd that many Christians hold this position yet we don't find this stated anywhere in Scripture.

On the other hand we know from God Himself that the sacrifices were not pleasing to Him. if they were not pleasing to God how then did they supposedly appease his wrath?


Isaiah 1:10-20(KJV)
10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Paul also tells us this.

Hebrews 10:4-6(KJV)
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

I mean, if you took the modern understanding of Christ's sacrifice (to appease the wrath of God) and applied it to a human father, he would be arrested, put in jail, and deemed a monster. Yet, many Christians say God did the same thing and it's worthy of praise, can you explain that?

Paul says that the purpose of the sacrifices was to remind the Jews of sins, ( he says nothing about appeasing the wrath of God). They showed that an innocent one would die for the guilty. The Jews were required to choose their finest animals, they had to sacrifice their best just as God would have to do to redeem them. Paul also tells us that those sacrifices could not take away sins.

What exactly are you thoughts on the final sacrifice of the temple system?

Have you ever heard the word Propitiation? Wondering what your thoughts are of the meaning of the word.

The final sacrifice of the temple system was the Lamb of God. After that sacrifice was complete the veil was torn in two. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away the sins of man. That was all a tutor to lead us to Christ. To teach man that sin was offensive to God and that God demanded payment for sin. Blood needed to be shed. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. You think all of those animal sacrifices were just to remind the Jews of sin? It was much more than that. It was to show the seriousness of sin. An innocent life shed its blood. Jesus is consistently referred to as the sacrificial lamb. Yes He redeemed us but He also fully satisfied the demands of God to fully punish sin in His perfect justice. (propitiation)

edited to add: I just ran across some articles while searching for a Biblical definition of propitiation. Here is some interesting reading:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/salva...opitiation.htm

http://www.oldpaths.com/archive/davi...edemption.html

http://www.christiancourier.com/arti...s-propitiation

and even wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propitiation

I'm guessing that you must have a source that defines propitiation as something other than appeasing the wrath of God.

[BoB/335]

it doesn't say that man doesn't have responsibility, that is you who keeps pounding that drum. but it does say that God is in FULL control and does elect. somehow they both are true whether you can wrap your mind around it or not. just because you can't understand something doesn't make it untrue to God. that is pretty much the entire theme and point of the story of Job's life.

And that's it exactly. SOMEHOW God's soveriegnty and man's free will are both working together in this.

I had a thought. "If" in God's soveriegnty He decided to allow man free will, does that make Him any less sovereign?

[keyzer soze]

And that's it exactly. SOMEHOW God's soveriegnty and man's free will are both working together in this.

I had a thought. "If" in God's soveriegnty He decided to allow man free will, does that make Him any less sovereign?

yes if you are suggesting that He gave away His sovereignty in doing so. i believe that God is both fully in control of everything and we can love... i also don't think we can fully understand how this all works, only God can.

[BoB/335]

yes if you are suggesting that He gave away His sovereignty in doing so. i believe that God is both fully in control of everything and we can love... i also don't think we can fully understand how this all works, only God can.

"I" am NOT suggesting ANY such thing nor have I even come close to any hint of that in any way at all!

[keyzer soze]

And that's it exactly. SOMEHOW God's soveriegnty and man's free will are both working together in this.

I had a thought. "If" in God's soveriegnty He decided to allow man free will, does that make Him any less sovereign?

well it would depend on how you define free-will. if you were to say that man's free will is outside of God's control then i would say that the answer to your question would be YES, God is no longer truly sovereign. i don't believe God can give away His sovereignty just like He can not sin even if He so desired which is impossible.

[Butch5]

some bible verses on the matter

rev 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

jer 32:17 “Ah, Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.

psa 103:19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.

rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Hi Keyzer,

These passages show God's sovereignty, but how do any of them intimate that God chooses who will believe?

[Butch5]

well it would depend on how you define free-will. if you were to say that man's free will is outside of God's control then i would say that the answer to your question would be YES, God is no longer truly sovereign. i don't believe God can give away His sovereignty just like He can not sin even if He so desired which is impossible.

Hi Keyzer,

That passage that says God cannot lie, it seems you understand that as an inability to lie. Let me suggest another understanding. I'd like to suggest that God cannot lie because it is against His character, not because He is unable. Scripture says that man is made in God's image, man is able to lie. How could it be possible for man to have an ability that God Himself did not have?

On another note, wouldn't that be outside of God's sovereignty?

[Butch5]

Have you ever heard the word Propitiation? Wondering what your thoughts are of the meaning of the word.

The final sacrifice of the temple system was the Lamb of God. After that sacrifice was complete the veil was torn in two. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away the sins of man. That was all a tutor to lead us to Christ. To teach man that sin was offensive to God and that God demanded payment for sin. Blood needed to be shed. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. You think all of those animal sacrifices were just to remind the Jews of sin? It was much more than that. It was to show the seriousness of sin. An innocent life shed its blood. Jesus is consistently referred to as the sacrificial lamb. Yes He redeemed us but He also fully satisfied the demands of God to fully punish sin in His perfect justice. (propitiation)

edited to add: I just ran across some articles while searching for a Biblical definition of propitiation. Here is some interesting reading:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/salva...opitiation.htm

http://www.oldpaths.com/archive/davi...edemption.html

http://www.christiancourier.com/arti...s-propitiation

and even wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propitiation

I'm guessing that you must have a source that defines propitiation as something other than appeasing the wrath of God.

Actually, if you look at the history of the word and it's usage, I think you'd find it iteresting. However, the word propitiation is just the word that Calvinist translators choose to use. The Greek word is "Hilasterion" it is translated as "Mercy seat" elsewhere. It is also translated Mercy seat in the Septuagint which was the OT source used by Jesus and the apostles.

Don't worry about the word propitiation, look at the Greek words translated propitiation. They are "Hilasterion and Hilasmos". They appear in both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. Nowhere are they translated propitiation except in Roman 3, and 1 John 2 and 4. The majority of times the word Hilasterion is translated Mercy seat.

However, Even if we assume propitiation (The Calvinist's translation) where does Scripture say that it was God's wrath that was propitiated?

To teach man that sin was offensive to God and that God demanded payment for sin.

Paul tells us that the wages of sin is death. Wages are something we earn not something we pay. Can you please show me Scripture that shows God demanded payment for sin?

You think all of those animal sacrifices were just to remind the Jews of sin? It was much more than that.

OK, can you show me? Paul said the sacrifices were to remind the Jews of sins, if as you say it's more than that please show me.

Yes He redeemed us but He also fully satisfied the demands of God to fully punish sin in His perfect justice.

Again, can you please show me where you find this in Scripture?

I'm guessing that you must have a source that defines propitiation as something other than appeasing the wrath of God.

It's an English word chosen by the translators. Read those verses that have propitiation in them and replace the word propitiation with mercy seat and you will find that it reads just fine. You see if you have a preconceived idea of satisfying God wrath, you'll likely choose the word propitiation. However, that word isn't the necessitated choice, mercy seat fit perfectly and is much more line with that John is speaking of when he says God is Love.

I’ll have a look at your links but I suspect they are going down the same line of reasoning

[keyzer soze]

Hi Keyzer,

These passages show God's sovereignty, but how do any of them intimate that God chooses who will believe?

see back many posts ago where i posted numerous election verses. these simply show that God is sovereign. if you understand what sovereign means then you know God is not surprised when anyone choses to believe or no believe.