Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[keyzer soze]

Hi Keyzer,

That passage that says God cannot lie, it seems you understand that as an inability to lie. Let me suggest another understanding. I'd like to suggest that God cannot lie because it is against His character, not because He is unable. Scripture says that man is made in God's image, man is able to lie. How could it be possible for man to have an ability that God Himself did not have?

On another note, wouldn't that be outside of God's sovereignty?

completely agree with your analysis here and that was the point i was trying to make. even though God is sovereign He can not go against His unchangeable character which means He can not give away control much like He can not lie.

[BoB/335]

Here is a word search for "wrath" on biblegateway.com

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...=52&spanend=73

Other translations have the same word translated "wrath". It's hard to argue the FACT that God's wrath will be poured out one day. And if you want to say that His wrath is not "appeased" for "you" by the blood of Jesus than so be it. As for me, I will hold in my heart verses like 1 Thes. 1:10, 5:9 and plenty of others. All the best to you!

[BoB/335]

btw maybe you could tell me why blood was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat and maybe why He "demanded" all those blood sacrices daily. (Any idea how many scrifices were done each and every day?)

[keyzer soze]

how does a thread about election end up on this crazy topic? any way you guys could turn this into a different thread because i don't even view this issue as up for debate. it did do a lot for showing how off some are entirely so you can take that into account on other subjects.

Here is a word search for "wrath" on biblegateway.com

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...=52&spanend=73

Other translations have the same word translated "wrath". It's hard to argue the FACT that God's wrath will be poured out one day. And if you want to say that His wrath is not "appeased" for "you" by the blood of Jesus than so be it. As for me, I will hold in my heart verses like 1 Thes. 1:10, 5:9 and plenty of others. All the best to you!

[Butch5]

completely agree with your analysis here and that was the point i was trying to make. even though God is sovereign He can not go against His unchangeable character which means He can not give away control much like He can not lie.

I think you missed my point. The point I was making was that God "Chooses" not to lie. I believe He is very capable, yet becuase of His character He chooses the truth over lying.

[Butch5]

see back many posts ago where i posted numerous election verses. these simply show that God is sovereign. if you understand what sovereign means then you know God is not surprised when anyone chooses to believe or no believe.

I don't understand the election verses the way you. They apply to Israel. I can show you in context how they apply. There are also few that are spoken to believers that can be understood differently than the typical Calvinist understanding.

However, I see Sovereignty and foreknowledge as two different things. God can have foreknowledge without being sovereign if He knows everything.

[Butch5]

Here is a word search for "wrath" on biblegateway.com

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...=52&spanend=73

Other translations have the same word translated "wrath". It's hard to argue the FACT that God's wrath will be poured out one day. And if you want to say that His wrath is not "appeased" for "you" by the blood of Jesus than so be it. As for me, I will hold in my heart verses like 1 Thes. 1:10, 5:9 and plenty of others. All the best to you!

Hi Bob,

My question wasn't about God's wrath, I agree it will be poured out. The question was can you show me "Anywhere" in the Scriptures that teaches that Christ's death on the cross was to appease God's wrath? The Greek word Hilasterion also means to expiate. Isn't that what Christ did? Isn't He our mercy seat?

Bob, can you please show me somewhere that Scripture teaches that Christ's blood appeased the wrath of God?

[BoB/335]

Hi Bob,

My question wasn't about God's wrath, I agree it will be poured out. The question was can you show me "Anywhere" in the Scriptures that teaches that Christ's death on the cross was to appease God's wrath? The Greek word Hilasterion also means to expiate. Isn't that what Christ did? Isn't He our mercy seat?

Bob, can you please show me somewhere that Scripture teaches that Christ's blood appeased the wrath of God?

I'll answer that question but I'm curious about something. You agree that God's wrth will be poured out (it seems). I "assume" that we would agree on "whom" God's wrath will be poured out on. Can you tell me whom God's wrath will NOT be poured out on and why it won't be poured out on them?

[BoB/335]

I apologize for a discussion on election ending up on this "crazy topic". (Although I don't see anything crazy about the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross)

Hebrews 9:23-28
²³ It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. ²⁴ For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. ²⁵ Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. ²⁶ Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. ²⁷ Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, ²⁸ so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

As I previously asked, "why" was blood sprinkled on the Mercy Seat? You have previously stated that Jesus came as a redeemer to pay a ransom and not as a sacrifice. Yet He did away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Christ was sacrificed once for the sins of many. The sacrifices in the Temple were just a copy of the better sacrifice. If you go back and read all of Hebrews 9 you will see that it states exactly what I said in an earlier post. Jesus did come as a redeemer to pay a ransom AND He was also a sacrifice. A sacrifice that all of the previous animal sacrifices were only a copy of. The Final Sacrifice that satisfied the demands of God so that there was no longer any need for continuing the sacrifices.

I'll find more and I'll be waiting to hear what you have to say on the above.

[BoB/335]

Don't worry about the word propitiation, look at the Greek words translated propitiation. They are "Hilasterion and Hilasmos". They appear in both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. Nowhere are they translated propitiation except in Roman 3, and 1 John 2 and 4. The majority of times the word Hilasterion is translated Mercy seat.

Romans 3 in all the English versions of the Bible that I have just looked up, all have your word translated as propitiation or "sacrifice of atonement". I haven't found any version to translate Romans 3 as Mercy Seat. BUT let's say it should be translated Mercy Seat. What do you think Romans 3 is saying?

I also have read the other 2 references in 1 John that you pointed out. In all 3 of these cases that you say it means Mercy Seat. Where propitiation isn't used in the other translations. it is also rendered atoning sacrifice as in Romans 3. I sure wish you would explain to me the meaning of all 3 of these references even if you insist on using the term "Mercy Seat". What do these passages mean???

[Butch5]

how does a thread about election end up on this crazy topic? any way you guys could turn this into a different thread because i don't even view this issue as up for debate. it did do a lot for showing how off some are entirely so you can take that into account on other subjects.

Hi Keyzer,

I apologize you derailing your thread. I have started another so that we can persue the Atonement questions.

[Butch5]

I'll answer that question but I'm curious about something. You agree that God's wrth will be poured out (it seems). I "assume" that we would agree on "whom" God's wrath will be poured out on. Can you tell me whom God's wrath will NOT be poured out on and why it won't be poured out on them?

Hi Bob, I've started another thread to address these issues so an not to further derail Keyzer's thread.

[keyzer soze]

I apologize for a discussion on election ending up on this "crazy topic". (Although I don't see anything crazy about the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross)

Hebrews 9:23-28
²³ It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. ²⁴ For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. ²⁵ Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. ²⁶ Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. ²⁷ Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, ²⁸ so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

As I previously asked, "why" was blood sprinkled on the Mercy Seat? You have previously stated that Jesus came as a redeemer to pay a ransom and not as a sacrifice. Yet He did away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Christ was sacrificed once for the sins of many. The sacrifices in the Temple were just a copy of the better sacrifice. If you go back and read all of Hebrews 9 you will see that it states exactly what I said in an earlier post. Jesus did come as a redeemer to pay a ransom AND He was also a sacrifice. A sacrifice that all of the previous animal sacrifices were only a copy of. The Final Sacrifice that satisfied the demands of God so that there was no longer any need for continuing the sacrifices.

I'll find more and I'll be waiting to hear what you have to say on the above.

i didn't mean crazy in Jesus's sacrifice, i meant the discussion as to the need for the sacrifice.... of course there is need of sacrifice or Jesus doesn't need to hang on a tree.

[BoB/335]

i didn't mean crazy in Jesus's sacrifice, i meant the discussion as to the need for the sacrifice.... of course there is need of sacrifice or Jesus doesn't need to hang on a tree.

Sorry. I should not have put it that way. I just felt that even though this has nothing to do with the thread, and I have no idea how it started, that ANY discussion is of benefit for all of us and should not be looked at as "crazy" for drifting. BUT on the other hand, a new thread can always be started and therefore threads shouldn't be hijacked.

On topic, I believe "IF" God were to choose to give man free will that's out of His control, that would be a Sovereign act of God and I wouldn't question it.

[keyzer soze]

Sorry. I should not have put it that way. I just felt that even though this has nothing to do with the thread, and I have no idea how it started, that ANY discussion is of benefit for all of us and should not be looked at as "crazy" for drifting. BUT on the other hand, a new thread can always be started and therefore threads shouldn't be hijacked.

On topic, I believe "IF" God were to choose to give man free will that's out of His control, that would be a Sovereign act of God and I wouldn't question it.

Bob, can you do me a favor and extrapolate on this. Can you define what you mean by sovereignty in the first place and then perhaps what it looks like both with and without human free-will?