Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[Vicstar]

Let's see if I can get caught up here.

I didn't know what to say in your earlier post and still not sure what to say here BUT that is certainly a first for me. God will NOT save all mankind!!! The Scriptures are plain as day on that and I don't know ANYONE who is saved that would say that. And I've NEVER heard anyone who believes in election say that others beside the elect will be saved.

lol BoB...well, there's a first time for everything hey?

[LookingUp]

This is something that I am continuing to struggle with. I have a hard time understanding how these 3 doctrines fit together in evangelical Christianity.

1 - God elects. Those the Father draws to Christ, Jesus saves.

Jesus enlightens every man (John 1:9) and he draws all men to himself (John 12:32). But some men are simply unwilling to come to Christ (Mt. 23:37). They resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).

2 - Men are wicked, evil and spiritually DEAD, unable to save themselves. God must regenerate the heart before we can receive Him.

It’s not biblical to say men are “spiritually dead.” People derive that idea from a couple passages like the one that says we were “dead in our sins” before becoming alive in Christ. Either you must believe that Old Testament saints were born again and filled with the Holy Spirit before Christ’s resurrection and ascension or you must believe there were different “rules” for Old Testaments saints than New Testament saints to believe this doctrine.

3 - We are called to believe in Christ and be saved through God's grace that He gives to anyone who believes.

True.

A good number of the services that I have attended at my church and other evangelical churches typically end with an invitation to the lost to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. While I am NOT trying to say this is impossible or this is wrong, I struggle to understand how it doesn't fly in the face of election and depravity of man. How is the invitation not suggesting that we can self-regenerate?

You don’t have to be born again in order to recognize that there is a God. Each man has enough faith and enlightenment from Christ (John 1:9) to understand and either accept or reject this truth.

I recognize all the passages where the apostles are asked "what can we do to receive eternal life?" - Answer is in some form of BELIEVE. Is that the only source of reasoning behind the invitation to make a decision today about Christ?

Not sure I understand this question.

[Bandit]

OK. At least I "understand" what you are getting at. I just don't see any "corporate election" anywhere.This is trying to read into the Scriptures something that's not there simply because you reason it out to be something that you could understand.

“ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.



I can certainly agree with THAT statement. That's because there is no mode of election that makes any sense.

Well, have you read any of my posts where I talked about the Messiah being the Elect One? (See Isaiah 42:1 for instance, and then Luke 9:35.) This is why Paul speaks of being "in Christ". God's election of a people to save flows through His election of Messiah. Remember where it says in Genesis 2:24 that a man and his wife shall become one flesh? I believe it is very biblical to think of the church, Jesus' bride, to be His body, His flesh. So since Jesus is God's Elect One, the church, which is His bride, His body, shares in His election. Every passage which speaks of election before the foundation of the world can be shown to fit within this election scheme. So I think it is far from correct to say that no mode of election makes any sense. I think a big part of the problem is that for so long the church has tried to think of election along individual lines, but from what I have read, in biblical times people did not think along such lines. I think the main problem with corporate election is that most people are just unfamilar with it.

[Vicstar]

Hello Vicstar,

The problem many will have (including me) with what you are saying, is that it appears you believe in some sort of universalism. I underlined the problem area above. Now I can believe the elect will come from all mankind (from all nations and races and tribes), but if you really believe that God will save all mankind, then that means you see no one as being condemned. But the bible is full of comments about God judging between the righteous and the unrighteous. So are there no unrighteous in your view? And are you saying that you believe God continually gives people chance after chance, even after death, until they get it right? I just want to understand what you say you believe.

A form of universalism, well yes, but I don't really like that title or the box it seems to put me in. I don't see the problem with the part you underlined - I've come to believe this, that's all. Yes all will be judged - we're all unrighteous without the blood of Christ to cover our sins. Some of us will see that now, through faith given by God alone.....others will see that at the latest when they stand before the Lord on the great and terrible day. Can you show me in scripture where it says when we die there are no more chances? And do I believe God continually gives people chance after chance? Absolutely! We've been told to forgive 70x7....will God not do the same?

[Bandit]

A form of universalism, well yes, but I don't really like that title or the box it seems to put me in. I don't see the problem with the part you underlined - I've come to believe this, that's all. Yes all will be judged - we're all unrighteous without the blood of Christ to cover our sins. Some of us will see that now, through faith given by God alone.....others will see that at the latest when they stand before the Lord on the great and terrible day. Can you show me in scripture where it says when we die there are no more chances? And do I believe God continually gives people chance after chance? Absolutely! We've been told to forgive 70x7....will God not do the same?

Well, it is getting late, so I must cut it short (though I suspect others may jump in) but let me ask you what you make of Paul's words in Romans 2:5-10? And what of many of Jesus' parables, like the Sheep and Goats Judgement in Matthew 25? In verse 25:46 it says the goats go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Once a person dies, then comes the judgement.

[BoB/335]

I think a big part of the problem is that for so long the church has tried to think of election along individual lines, but from what I have read, in biblical times people did not think along such lines. I think the main problem with corporate election is that most people are just unfamilar with it.

So in Biblical times people did not think along the lines of individual election and nowadays people do not think along the lines of corporate election. So my last post still stands. You are reading into Scripture something that is not there in order to support your theology. Scripture needs to be read and understood in its IMMEDIATE context and THEN used to support other Scripture. I see you deduction but it does not come from an interpretation of the immediate context of the Scriptures you reference and doing things "like this" is how the cults come to their deductions.

[Vicstar]

Sorry if I digress from the OP, but my views of election are tightly interwoven with my views about predestination and the salvation of all mankind.

[BoB/335]

A form of universalism, well yes, but I don't really like that title or the box it seems to put me in. I don't see the problem with the part you underlined - I've come to believe this, that's all. Yes all will be judged - we're all unrighteous without the blood of Christ to cover our sins. Some of us will see that now, through faith given by God alone.....others will see that at the latest when they stand before the Lord on the great and terrible day. Can you show me in scripture where it says when we die there are no more chances? And do I believe God continually gives people chance after chance? Absolutely! We've been told to forgive 70x7....will God not do the same?

Any idea why it's called the great and TERRIBLE day of the Lord?

[Vicstar]

Well, it is getting late, so I must cut it short (though I suspect others may jump in) but let me ask you what you make of Paul's words in Romans 2:5-10?

And what of many of Jesus' parables, like the Sheep and Goats Judgement in Matthew 25? In verse 25:46 it says the goats go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Once a person dies, then comes the judgement.

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

Yes, there will be judgement...for all people...wrath and anger, yes. God is just. That's why His anger will not be eternal.....he "delights to show mercy".


Again, yes judgement is coming. I won't go into a great speel about the root words translated as everlasting and eternal - it would be beneficial for you to do a google search on the word "aionion" if you would like to research this. Suffice is to say that everlasting/ eternal are a poor translation....the better translation would be "pertaining to an age (an undefined period of time).

Also, don't forget other parables such as the lost sheep or the lost coin which speak about our saviours unwillingness to let anyone go.

[Bandit]

So in Biblical times people did not think along the lines of individual election and nowadays people do not think along the lines of corporate election. So my last post still stands. You are reading into Scripture something that is not there in order to support your theology. Scripture needs to be read and understood in its IMMEDIATE context and THEN used to support other Scripture. I see you deduction but it does not come from an interpretation of the immediate context of the Scriptures you reference and doing things "like this" is how the cults come to their deductions.

No, you are not understanding. The wording is there in the bible, it is just the true meaning has been missed by many (but not all) because of cultural biases. You are used to thinking along individual election lines because that is what you have learned to do. And I noticed you gave no thought at all to what I said about Jesus being the Elect One and the church being elect corporately through Him. To evaluate what I have said would take considerable time, much more than the few minutes you likely did not spend. This is a paradigm shift, and it won't come quick, or even at all unless you are willing to give it a fair chance and think it through carefully.

[BoB/335]

Again, yes judgement is coming. I won't go into a great speel about the root words translated as everlasting and eternal - it would be beneficial for you to do a google search on the word "aionion" if you would like to research this. Suffice is to say that everlasting/ eternal are a poor translation....the better translation would be "pertaining to an age (an undefined period of time).

Also, don't forget other parables such as the lost sheep or the lost coin which speak about our saviours unwillingness to let anyone go.

You are picking and choosing Scripture and taking others out of context. The lost sheep and lost coin parables both end with an interesting statement. It mentions a sinner that REPENTS. It is true that God wishes no man to perish yet 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 says that there will be those facing an eternal punishment.
Jesus says in Matthew 7:12-14 that MANY enter the gate that leads to destruction.

All will NOT be saved!

[BoB/335]

And you don't need to see corporate election to see the reality that not all will be saved.

[Vicstar]

You are picking and choosing Scripture and taking others out of context. The lost sheep and lost coin parables both end with an interesting statement. It mentions a sinner that REPENTS. It is true that God wishes no man to perish yet 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 says that there will be those facing an eternal punishment.
Jesus says in Matthew 7:12-14 that MANY enter the gate that leads to destruction.

All will NOT be saved!

BoB,
did you read my previous post to Bandit? If you research the root word translated as eternal it will shed a different light on those and many other scriptures. In fact it changes the whole view of "eternal" hell as we have been taught in the church.

[Butch5]

So in Biblical times people did not think along the lines of individual election and nowadays people do not think along the lines of corporate election. So my last post still stands. You are reading into Scripture something that is not there in order to support your theology. Scripture needs to be read and understood in its IMMEDIATE context and THEN used to support other Scripture. I see you deduction but it does not come from an interpretation of the immediate context of the Scriptures you reference and doing things "like this" is how the cults come to their deductions.

Actually Bob, when Bandit speaks of those in Biblical times not understanding election in an individual sense he is quite right. You speak of understanding the text in it's immediate context, and while that is correct, it is also just as important to understand the historical context. To read the Scriptures and interpret them in the light of 21st century America is also taking the Scriptures out of context and will most likely lead to misunderstanding. Just look at the Jews in Jesus' day, how was a Jew a person of God? It was because he was born into the Jewish nation. In order for a Gentile to because on of God's people he had to become a Jew.


Exodus 4:22
²² And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Exodus 19:5-6(KJV)
5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


Deuteronomy 7:6
⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Kings 3:8
⁸ And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.


Jeremiah 11:13-15(KJV)
13For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
14Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
15What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.

This was the what the Jews understood in Jesus’ day. This is corporate election.

[BoB/335]

BoB,
did you read my previous post to Bandit? If you research the root word translated as eternal it will shed a different light on those and many other scriptures. In fact it changes the whole view of "eternal" hell as we have been taught in the church.

Yes I read your post above.

an undefined period of time

So tell me how that differs from eternal or everlasting.