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So the Jews of Jesus' day understood that they were corporately elected children of God? I happen to agree with that statement. The DID think that and they were WRONG to think that. Romans 9 is very clear (besides John 1:12-14 and so many others) that corporate election does NOT work.Originally Posted by Butch5
Coffee Break
Hi Vicstar,
It's funny you should mention Israel because that's who Paul is spekaing of in each of the verses you've posted above. These verses are not speaking of Christians.
Coffee Break
Hi Vicstar,
I'd like to ask you a question. If we take the statement no one is good to the extreme, what do you do with Jesus? He was speaking of the Father when He said there is none good but God. In that statement He excluded Himself, so in taking the passage to the extreme, what about Jesus?
The second issue is concerning your statement, "again, it's really God who decides how we will choose. " This assumes that God creates every person that lives. Can this be proven from Scripture?
Coffee Break
This my friend is what Peter warned against.
2 Peter 1:20-21(KJV)
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
All of these different beliefs are "Private" interpretation. That is why it is "Imperative" that our understanding "Must" reconcile the "Totality" of the Scriptures. If there is a single verse of Scripture that speaks against what we believe then better get to work on figuring out how it fits. If it doesn't fit with what we believe then what we believe needs to go.
That's why I presented quotes showing how the early Christians understood the Scriptures. While not perfect they were a lot closer to the source than we are. There was nowhere near the amount of theological error at that time as there is now.
Coffee Break
Hi Vicstar,
I am familiar with your statements concerning "aionios". Let me suggest that your understanding of the word is actually opposed to what you say you believe. You seem to indicate that "aionios" is for an extended period of time but is not eternal, correct? If that is the case then the judgments given in Scripture are not eternal, correct? This presents you with a major problem. Not only does it mean that the unrighteous will be destroyed, it also means tht God's elect will be destroyed. You see, If "aionios" is not eternal, then, the Life (eternal) that is promised by Jesus is also not eternal but only for an extended period of time. So, at the end of this extended period of time this life would come to an end and thus those having this life would come to an end, leaving no one saved in the end.
Last edited by Butch5; Jan 4th 2012 at 06:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by Vicstar
John 146, this is where I find it in scripture:
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
Rom 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Eph 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace
Eph 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
So either God is sadistic and created some people to be predestined to eternity with him, while the rest are by default predestined to eternal torture.....OR......some are predestined to be God's chosen people (remember Israel?) and be kings and priests in the kingdom - serving the others God will bring in.
I can't even guess where you are coming from here.
Although I don't agree with the statement either, I can't figure your assumption either.The second issue is concerning your statement, "again, it's really God who decides how we will choose. " This assumes that God creates every person that lives. Can this be proven from Scripture?
Coffee Break
Not at all, try looking at it from a different angle. They weren't wrong, I gave you passages where God Himself said they were His beloved people. He said, Israel is my son. The problem isn't that they weren't God's people, the problem is that they didn't "Remain" God's people. Do you see how your understanding of OSAS influences your understanding here? God said He "Divorced" Israel, you can't divorce someone unless you are really married to them.
Jeremiah 3:6-8(KJV)
6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
These were God's people; the problem is when Christ came they did not receive Him. This is where you find the choosing of certain people that Jesus speaks of. Jesus said to the disciples, I have chosen you, and He said, they shall all be taught of the God. He also said to Peter when he acknowledged Jesus as the Christ, flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but the Father. These are passages that are used by those who hold to individual election to support their doctrine. However, the reason for this choosing is seen from Jesus and the prophets. Israel was purposely blinded so that the crucifixion could take place. It was necessary for the Jews to reject Christ for Him to be crucified. It was for this reason that God blinded Israel.
John 12:37-40(KJV)
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, [yet they believed not on him:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John quotes Isaiah here showing that the prophecy was being fulfilled.
Isaiah 6:9-10(KJV)
9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
You can see here from Isaiah that God intentionally blinded them so that they would not see and understand. This is also the reason Jesus spoke in parables, so the people (the Jews) wouldn’t understand.
Mark 4:9-12(KJV)
9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Here again we see them being kept in the dark. So, none of these Jews could see and understand unless they were specifically chosen to understand. The disciples were such as were chosen to understand. Paul confirms this with his statements to the Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 2:6-8(KJV)
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Clearly Paul is saying that if they had understood God’s plan beforehand they would not have crucified Christ. So this choosing that Jesus is speaking of was something that took place during His earthly ministry. This all changed after the cross Jesus said in John 12
John 12:32(KJV)
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So Jesus here is telling them that this choosing will come to an end and alal will be drawn not just a chosen few.
Paul also explains this choosing of the Jews in Romans. If we look at the book of Romans in context we can see that Paul begins to address the Jewish Christians at this church in 2:17.
Romans 2:17(KJV)
17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Notice what Paul says here thou are called a Jew and rest in the Law. Here he is setting up his discussion for the next 9 chapters. He will continue to address the Jew who rests in the Law until chapter 11:13 where he turns to the Gentile believers at Rome.
Romans 11:13(KJV)
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Between 2:17 and 11:13 Paul is addressing the Jew who rests in the Law. His discussion of election is speaking of the Jews. He explains how even though most Jews have not followed God but have gone their own way that God has not cast them off but has preserved a remnant who has followed Him. He calls them the election of grace.
Romans 11:1-6(KJV)
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Then Paul says that Israel has not found what he seeks but the election has found it. These were those chosen by Christ during His ministry. Then he says thee rest were blinded.
Romans 11:7-10(KJV)
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Ok, so, again we see that Israel was purposefully blinded so that they could not understand. He quotes Isaiah,
Isaiah 29:10-12(KJV)
10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
So the only Jews that could come to Christ during His earthly ministry were those who were specifically chosen. The reason was this blinding that God had put upon them. But again this ended with the cross because Paul says that even though they (Unbelieving Jews) were cut off of the natural olive tree they could be grafted back in if they didn’t remain in unbelief.
Coffee Break
In those passages that Vicstar posted Paul is speaking about Israel, the Jews. If you're interested I can supply the evidence to show this, however, it is rather time consuming to explain it. If you're interested I will give it.
I try not to make assumptions. That's why I asked if Scripture teaches that God creates every person. If we can't find such teaching then to say he does is an assumption.Although I don't agree with the statement either, I can't figure your assumption either.
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I bet it's REALLY time consuming to come up with this. I'll tell you what. Give it a shot. The anticipation is killing me!
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
None of these say that God chose to give faith to some and withhold it from the rest. If you think Eph 2:8 is saying that faith is the gift of God then you are mistaken. It is salvation, which is by grace through faith in Christ, that is the gift of God. A gift that is offered and must be freely accepted:
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
None of those say that God predetermined to give some faith and not to the rest. You have to read those passages in context. What is the criteria for someone being saved? God's random choice? Is that what you think? Does man have no choice in the matter?
Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
You basically believe that God forces faith upon people, right? What kind of "faith" is that if it is forced? Faith in Christ has to do with someone putting their trust in Him as their Lord and Savior. How can someone truly trust in Him if they are forced to do so? Aren't things like faith and love something that people can only choose to do willingly rather than being forced to do it? Are you married or do you have a boyriend? If so, imagine if your boyfriend or husband only loved you because you forced him to. What kind of relationship would that be? None at all, right? Yet you think our relationship with Christ is one that God forces us to have through no choice of our own? I don't see that as being a personal relationship at all. Faith and love cannot be forced.
Coffee Break
Actually, in going back to get the passages I did notice I made one mistake. Ephesians 2:8 is "Not" speaking of the Jews, the others, however, are. I'm being serious Bob. It will take some time for you to look at this. Let me ask you do you believe the Scriptures are without contradiction?
Rom 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
The first thing to note here is that "ALL" of the verbs are in the past tense, including glorified. So, whatever Paul is speaking of here, it happened in the past. We also need to look at the context (which you speak of). Who is Paul addressing? As I've pointed out in the other post, he is addressing the Jewish believers at Rome. This whole section Rom. 2:17-11:13 is addressing "thou art called a Jew and restest in the Law". Paul tells them those that God forknew He predestined. So, we need of find out who they are that God foreknew. We know they were people who were alive in Paul's day or before. However, Paul doesn't leave us guessing, he tells us in this very section where he is addressing the Jewish believers.
Romans 11:1-2(KJV)
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
So, we can see that when Paul speaks of the people God foreknew he is speaking of the Jews. This alone is evidence enough, I mean the man who said it should be the one to tell us what it means, but, there is more evidence.
Paul indicates that these are a specific group of people, those who love God. So, we have Jews who loved God in Paul's day or before. But Paul says to the Jewish believers at Rome, "for we know" that God works all things together for good to those how love Him. The Greek word Translated "Know" is "Oidamen", it comes from the Greek word "Eido". It carries the idea of knowing something by seeing or perceiving it. This word "Oidamen" is in the perfect tense. In the perfect tense this means that it was a completed action in the past and the results of that action continue to the present. In other words the Jewish believers at Rome knew that 'God works all things together for good to those who love Him' in the past and they still know it. This is not something new that Paul is teaching them, they've already had this knowledge. How would they have this knowledge? They would have it from their Jewish upbringing and history. Paul's Gentile reader would not necessarily have this knowledge not having known God.
Here is a link that goes into more depth.
http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Rom_8_28.pdf
These two passages in Ephesians are from what is called a "Hebraism". A Hebraism is a Jewish Praise to God. If you look at the Greek you'll find that verse 3-12 are one long continuous sentence. Another important aspect of the passage is Paul's use of first and second plural personal pronouns showing that Paul is speaking of two different groups of people in Ephesians 1. If you notice in verse 12 Paul ends the Hebraism by saying, 'we who first hoped in the Christ'. Then in verse 13 he says 'and you'. In English the pronouns we, us, and our, can be either inclusive or exclusive, which it is is determined by context. For instance, I could call you up and say we went to the supermarket today, you knowing you didn't go would understand that I was using we in an exclusive manner. However, If I called you up and said, we need to go to the supermarket then you would know I am including you and using we in an inclusive manner. The context determines the usage. This is what we have in this Hebraism that Paul writes. The, we, us, and our, are exclusive, he is not including his readers (unless they are Jews). He is speaking as a Jew. At this point I'm going to give you a link that discusses this in depth.Eph 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace
Eph 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf
I'm going to give some evidence that I don't believe you'll find in the link. We have to ask if Paul would contradict himself. For instance in verse 11 Paul says,
Ephesians 1:11(KJV)
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Paul says we have obtained an inheritance. He uses the past tense so this inheritance has already been obtained, yet Speaking to his Ephesian readers he says this,
Ephesians 1:14(KJV)
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
An earnest is a down payment. Paul says they have a down payment on their inheritance, he doesn't say they have already received it. So, this inheritance is not the same as the one mentioned in verse 11. So, what is the inheritance in verse 11?
Numbers 26:52-55(KJV)
52And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
53Unto these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names.
54To many thou shalt give the more inheritance, and to few thou shalt give the less inheritance: to every one shall his inheritance be given according to those that were numbered of him.
55Notwithstanding the land shall be divided by lot: according to the names of the tribes of their fathers they shall inherit.
The land was given to Israel for an inheritance. They received it in the past, thus Paul's statement being in the past.
In addition, Paul says,
Ephesians 1:8-9(KJV)
8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Paul says of this group of which he speaks (in which he includes himself), God has abounded toward them in all wisdom and prudence. Who did God abound toward in all wisdom and prudence? It was the Jews, He sent them His word, He guided them, He sent them prophets, He blessed them with miracles an so on. knowing that look at what Paul said to his readers.
Ephesians 1:15-18(KJV)
15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Here Paul says he prays that his readers would receive wisdom and understanding about God. This couldn't possibly be the same group of people as those in verse 8, unless Paul is contradicting himself. How could he say God has abounded toward the Ephesians is all wisdom and turn around and say he is praying that God will give them wisdom?
In addition in verse 8 Paul says that God has made know His will to them. Who did God make His will known to? It was the Jews. Paul even says this.
Ephesians 3:1-6(KJV)
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
I believe the amount of evidence in support of this is overwhelming. If you look at it seriously I think you'll agree.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Scripture simply does not teach that. Instead, it teaches this:
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Some try to say the word "everlasting" here does not mean forever but it's the same Greek word translated as "eternal" when it talks about the righteous inheriting "life eternal", and we know that the word means forever there, so that is a weak argument.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Agree. The only explanation that makes sense to explain why some people do not accept Christ is not that they can't but that they won't because they choose not to do so.
Right. Being dead in our sins didn't mean our spirits were dead and unable to respond to the gospel. We were spiritually sick, not spiritually dead. To be sick doesn't mean you are not able to decide whether or not to accept help and healing when it is offered.It’s not biblical to say men are “spiritually dead.” People derive that idea from a couple passages like the one that says we were “dead in our sins” before becoming alive in Christ. Either you must believe that Old Testament saints were born again and filled with the Holy Spirit before Christ’s resurrection and ascension or you must believe there were different “rules” for Old Testaments saints than New Testament saints to believe this doctrine.
Matt 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
This is a very weak argument. Would you try to say that the "eternal life" that the righteous inherit (Matt 25:46) is not forever but only for a temporary time period? If not then why would you make that argument regarding the "everlasting punishment" that the wicked will receive? The word "aionion" is used in each case and the two things (everlasting punishment and eternal life) are directly contrasted with each other so they are used in the same context as far as their duration is concerned. So, if the "eternal life" is forever, which I believe it clearly is, then so is the "everlasting punishment".
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Actually, Romans 9 speaks of corporate election. Tell me, when it says "the elder shall serve the younger" in Romans 9:12 do you think that is saying the individual Esau would serve the individual Jacob? If so then you need to read Genesis 25:23 to see the real context of what Paul is talking about in Romans 9:9-13 in particular.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
If you think when Paul mentions Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 that he was talking about Jacob being elected to salvation and Esau not being elected to salvation then you are sadly mistaken. Paul was speaking of the corporate election of the nation that would descend from Jacob, which was Israel. That is the nation through which God would work and through which the Messiah would come to bring salvation to Israel and to the whole world.
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