Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[Butch5]

if Bob did not fully speak for you below perhaps you could extrapolate this process out further in light of the verses i asked about. sounds to me at least that you are suggesting a 3 step process above:
1 - Jesus draws all
2 - Men need to respond
3 - Father completes the process

This seems contradictory to what Jesus says when He talks about the Father bringing Him the people.

Hi Keyzer,

I can't speak for Lookingup. However, I can say that with the explanation I've given in post 382, that issue does not exist.

[BoB/335]

hey Bob, do you think i am any less irked when you tell me what i believe and how it is wrong? its hard to keep everyone straight in this thread as we have people all over the board so you throw out romans as an example but there are some that think that was for the jewish nation only. it amazes me how people like yourself can jump on me for asking someone ELSE a question about their post, NOT yours and yet in your reply to a question that wasn't even for you, you can manage to put words in my mouth and at the same time complain about others... truly Christian effort there...

I don't see where I jumped on you for asking a question but if I did, that was not my intention and I apologize.

I don't see where I ever put any words in your mouth and if I did, that was not my intent and I apologize.

I have been attempting to make a Christian effort and if I have not, that was not my intention and I apologize.

[BoB/335]

http://focusmagazine.org/Articles/righteousfall.htm

I have lost my joy being part of this forum so I am deciding to leave.

Either I can only hope that I am one of the elect because there seems to be no way to really know for sure and I will forever fret over it with no real peace or joy.

Or

In my free will and the sin that dwells in me, I will forever be wondering if I am doing enough to keep the commandments and endure to the end which is way too much work for me so I might just throw in the towel now.

Just can't figure out how I managed all these years.

[Butch5]

http://focusmagazine.org/Articles/righteousfall.htm

I have lost my joy being part of this forum so I am deciding to leave.

Either I can only hope that I am one of the elect because there seems to be no way to really know for sure and I will forever fret over it with no real peace or joy.

Or

In my free will and the sin that dwells in me, I will forever be wondering if I am doing enough to keep the commandments and endure to the end which is way too much work for me so I might just throw in the towel now.

Just can't figure out how I managed all these years.

There's no reason to leave Bob. I've enjoyed our conversation and would hate to see you go.

[LookingUp]

so you are saying that its on us to start the process but after we start it the Father will draw us in?

No, we don't start anything. God began it when He spoke, "Let there be Light." His Light has been here from the beginning enlightening mankind. John wrote that "in him [the Word] was Life and the Life was the Light of men...there was the true Light which enlightens every man." After his death and resurrection, the Light that had been drawing mankind through general revelation began to draw mankind through specific revelation given by those who had received and embraced the Light. The gospel (specific revelation) spread and the hearing of it began to lead people to Christ. If they don't resist the Holy Spirit that convicts the heart, the Father completes the drawing process and they receive the Holy Spirit.

[LookingUp]

if Bob did not fully speak for you below perhaps you could extrapolate this process out further in light of the verses i asked about. sounds to me at least that you are suggesting a 3 step process above:
1 - Jesus draws all
2 - Men need to respond
3 - Father completes the process

This seems contradictory to what Jesus says when He talks about the Father bringing Him the people.

Yes, that's the 3-step process as I see it. Could you quote the scripture(s) that seem to contradict that process?

[RollTide21]

question for those who are against election. what do the following verses mean?

John 6:

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

John 17 is all about the disciples. That opens another can of worms, but Jesus is praying for the disciples. Even when he prays for the World who will believe, He is still talking about praying for the World through the work of the disciples.

I don't see an issue with seeing that the disciples were handpicked specifically, but not those who would believe the Message of the Gospel that they were tasked with spreading.

[david]

http://focusmagazine.org/Articles/righteousfall.htmI have lost my joy being part of this forum so I am deciding to leave.Either I can only hope that I am one of the elect because there seems to be no way to really know for sure and I will forever fret over it with no real peace or joy.OrIn my free will and the sin that dwells in me, I will forever be wondering if I am doing enough to keep the commandments and endure to the end which is way too much work for me so I might just throw in the towel now.Just can't figure out how I managed all these years.

I hope you don't think keeping God's commandments is burdensome.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

On the contrary, keeping the commandments is the only way you can have peace.
Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea; your offspring would have been like the sand, and your descendants like its grains; their name would never be cut off or destroyed from before me.” Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob!” They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock; he split the rock and the water gushed out. “There is no peace,” says the LORD, “for the wicked.” Isaiah 48:18-22

It is not a curse to do the commandments, but rather a blessing. The sum of the commandments of God is "love," and this certainly is a blessing to do.
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Romans 13:9
‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” Acts 20:35
But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke 11:28

it might sound paradoxical, but working to keep God's commandments is peace, but not working to keep God's commandments is torment and agitation.
How long will you lie there, O sluggard? When will you arise from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and want like an armed man. Proverbs 6:9-11

as for salvation, i agree with you that you can't lose it, however i also believe that without doing the commandments you cannot have peace, either in this age or the age to come.
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2

[keyzer soze]

I don't see where I jumped on you for asking a question but if I did, that was not my intention and I apologize.

I don't see where I ever put any words in your mouth and if I did, that was not my intent and I apologize.

I have been attempting to make a Christian effort and if I have not, that was not my intention and I apologize.

listen Bob, i apologize as well. i know that at times i get too defensive on forums, i am now one handed from surgery that makes typing so freaking hard, and i am over whelmed from the different theologies in this thread and can't keep people straight. i have a headache today and should know better then to get defensive with a headache so it is me who is apologizing back, sorry. i appreciate everyone's position and efforts and probably read too much into "tone" on the net. no one likes to hear or read when someone else tells them that their theology, the very reason they feel they have meaning in life, is wrong, and if in the wrong mood can have an adverse reaction.

[keyzer soze]

ok, question: does your theology on faith and where it comes from matter for salvation? hypothetically speaking if faith completely comes from God but you think its from yourself does it matter? how about if you think its from God but its from yourself. or if you believe you have been individually selected but you were really part of a corporate selection.

does it matter that we understand where our faith comes from to be saved even if we are completely wrong?

i am almost scared to ask in that this seems like a yes/no question but i wonder if it wont get much more complicated then that.

[keyzer soze]

Hi Keyzer,

I can't speak for Lookingup. However, I can say that with the explanation I've given in post 382, that issue does not exist.

i read your position and i just disagree. i was taught to read the bible normally and i simply come away with a different mindset then you do after reading. just seems that you are reading into things more then needs to be. appreciate your time though to post your position with the scripture passages.

[John146]

question for those who are against election.

I don't think anyone here is against election since that concept is clearly taught in scripture. What some, like myself, are against is your understanding of election. Just because someone disagrees with your understanding of what election is and how it works doesn't mean they are against election itself.

what do the following verses mean?

John 6:

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

What it doesn't mean is that God only draws some people to Christ and doesn't bother with the rest. Here's what Jesus said He would do:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So, for God to draw people to Christ is not a case of forcing them to believe in Christ. God calls all people to repentance (Acts 17:30-31) and faith in Christ and wants all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6) but the only one who will actually come to Christ are those who are willing to do so by their own free will choice.

John 17:

9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

The things He was praying about at that time only applied to His followers. This doesn't mean He didn't ever pray for those who had not put their faith in Him up to that point. But at that particular time He was praying for His followers and praying for their protection (John 17:15) and so on. You can't take single verses here and there and make doctrines out of them. It's easy to read a single verse and think it's saying one thing but then you find a hundred other verses saying something else. That means you were reading the one verse out of context. You have to read the verses in context and also read them in light of the rest of scripture before determining what they mean.

Look at what Jesus said here:

Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

He told His disciples to pray for their enemies. Do you think He would tell them to do that but not do that Himself as well? Of course not, right? So, you can't read a verse like John 17:9 and conclude that Jesus didn't pray for the lost at all or didn't care if they were saved or not. God wants all people to repent and to be saved. I'm not sure how you reconcile that with your doctrine.

[david]

ok, question: does your theology on faith and where it comes from matter for salvation? hypothetically speaking if faith completely comes from God but you think its from yourself does it matter? how about if you think its from God but its from yourself. or if you believe you have been individually selected but you were really part of a corporate selection.

does it matter that we understand where our faith comes from to be saved even if we are completely wrong?

i am almost scared to ask in that this seems like a yes/no question but i wonder if it wont get much more complicated then that.

who was this directed to?

[LookingUp]

ok, question: does your theology on faith and where it comes from matter for salvation?

If I understand this question correctly, my answer is no, your salvation doesn’t depend on if your theology on faith and where it comes from is correct or not. We need the saving and God is the One who does the saving.

hypothetically speaking if faith completely comes from God but you think its from yourself does it matter?

No. Our conclusion regarding where faith comes from has no salvific value.

how about if you think its from God but its from yourself. or if you believe you have been individually selected but you were really part of a corporate selection.

None of this has any salvific value.

does it matter that we understand where our faith comes from to be saved even if we are completely wrong?

God doesn’t save us based on how many doctrines we have correct.

i am almost scared to ask in that this seems like a yes/no question but i wonder if it wont get much more complicated then that.

Rest in God. Have peace. God sent His son to die for us because He loves us and wants us to be with Him in His kingdom. If you sent your only beloved son to die so others could join you in your kingdom, you’re going to make sure that as many as possible are blessed by your son’s death.

[Vicstar]

Looking up, I couldn't agree more with your last statement - why would god send his beloved son to die for the sins of the whole world but then put a barrier between us & that salvation? Why only have some come to salvation? It makes no sense.