Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[Butch5]

1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Joh_3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

judas never received the promise of which we both seem to agree.

i think we diverge upon what has not been given to Christ

i take scripture at its word, he hath given all things into his hand.

is power to rule over heaven and earth a thing ? then scripture assures he has it

there is no person, tree, spirit, cat, stone, cloud, power, principality, or key that has not been given to Christ, He walked on water just to show you who was in charge, you dont do that unless you rule here.

We can pull passages of Scripture from anywhere, however, the question you asked was what was the promise the of the Father? Here is what Jesus said the promise of the Father was.

Acts 1:3-5(KJV)
3To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

That's the promise that Jesus was referring to.

Well, If Jesus has everything Please explain this passage to me.

Psalms 110:1-7(KJV)
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

And again, please explain to me what this has to do with John 6.

[fewarechosen]

We can pull passages of Scripture from anywhere, however, the question you asked was what was the promise the of the Father? Here is what Jesus said the promise of the Father was.

Acts 1:3-5(KJV)
3To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

That's the promise that Jesus was referring to.

Well, If Jesus has everything Please explain this passage to me.

Psalms 110:1-7(KJV)
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

And again, please explain to me what this has to do with John 6.

so we see the promise the same. unless you think its a different promise


the answer to your second is clear
thats before Christ came and died on Cross. written before Christ died on cross by prophet not after by apostle

OT - waiting till enemies are his footstool
NT - Christ died on cross sits on throne with father

further Scripture

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

the earth is the lords footstool and heaven is his throne and he is sittin in the throne with father - hence the earth is under his feet and it is his footstool

and i understand if you see its not in context, i see it is

scripture said Christ had everything given to him, i think thats related to what has been given to him, but we dont all see the same thing

i was asking so i could see what you thought was given to him

may we continue to grow in the Lord

[Butch5]

so we see the promise the same. unless you think its a different promise


the answer to your second is clear
thats before Christ came and died on Cross. written before Christ died on cross by prophet not after by apostle

OT - waiting till enemies are his footstool
NT - Christ died on cross sits on throne with father

further Scripture

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

the earth is the lords footstool and heaven is his throne and he is sittin in the throne with father - hence the earth is under his feet and it is his footstool

and i understand if you see its not in context, i see it is

scripture said Christ had everything given to him, i think thats related to what has been given to him, but we dont all see the same thing

i was asking so i could see what you thought was given to him

may we continue to grow in the Lord

It's not the same promise. You posted Scritpure speaking of the promise of eternal life, but you asked what was the promise of the Father. I gave you the Scripture where Jesus told the disciples what the promise of the Father was and He said it was the Spirit.

Also, just because something was said by a prophet doesn't mean it has already come to pass. The prophets also spoke of Jesus' second coming, surely you wouldn't say He's already come a second time?

Look at verse 5, is it your contention that the day of the Lord has already arrived? David puts the Day of the Lord's wrath in the future with respect to His sitting at the Right hand of the Father. So, if, as you say Christ is already on the throne that requires that the Day of the Lord has already come. Can you show me evidence for this.

I don't really see how Rev. 3:21 proves that Christ isn't seated at the Father's right hand.

And, I really would like to know how this relates to My statements about John 6. I really don't want to hijack the thread, if you want to continue we should start a new thread.

[keyzer soze]

Love your last comment! Amen! I do hope both our understandings grow! Let's take Romans 3:23. I guess I just don't take things as literally as I used to when reading Scripture. I wouldn't read that and think Paul means that an infant is capable of sin. There are other Scriptures (I'd have to look them up if you need them) which indicate that one doesn't know right from wrong until an age of maturity. The age isn't specified in Scripture, so I assume God knows the heart and knows when a child knows right from wrong and is capable of sinning. So, when Paul says that all come short of the glory of God, I believe he means that all adults (basically) fall short of the glory of God. In other words, we need help!

Scripture doesn't say He created evil. Some translations say He created evil. The Hebrew word could also be translated as calamity or disaster.

Lookingup, do you have children? I have an 11 month old son now. Few questions for you. Is murder sin if you have never read it in the bible? Is disobeying your parents a sin if you have never read the bible? The bible says that children are to obey their parents. My son continues to want to touch things that i tell him not to like the fireplace. I never taught him to touch that, have always told him no with occasional slap on the wrist, yet he wants to touch what he can't more than anything and he knows its wrong because of the way he reacts if he sees me looking at him when attempting this which he never does when playing or touching something he is allowed to touch. my point is that i did not teach him to defy me, it comes naturally and he is not 1 years old. sin is in us, all of us from birth. however, before i had a child of my own i could not really grasp this.

i say all this to say that none are innocent, not even one.

[fewarechosen]

1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Gal_3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

the promise is the same - its being elect - no one plucks you from his hand - eternal life- baptism of fire - holy ghost - sealed - we set up abode with you, its all that same promise.
so the scripture i quoted was that same promise
i know from your post you think its two different ones but i wont try to convince you again you are free to see what you see

then you say this,

"Also, just because something was said by a prophet doesn't mean it has already come to pass. The prophets also spoke of Jesus' second coming, surely you wouldn't say He's already come a second time?"

where did i say because it was said of a prophet it came to pass ? its very hard to have a convo when things i never said are brought into it. i said it was told to us by a prophet in OT of course when he wrote it wasnt passed, it only came to pass when Christ came here.

I gave you this scripture

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. notice past tense cannot stress that enough

then you say this

"So, if, as you say Christ is already on the throne that requires that the Day of the Lord has already come. Can you show me evidence for this"

that is your quote above - the evidence that Christ is on throne is Christ himself saying it - look at scripture directly above - Where does Christ say he is set ? it aint me sayin it.

i had quoted this scripture

Joh_3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

then you ask me this

"Well, If Jesus has everything Please explain this passage to me."

What does scripture say was given into his hands ? and if you dont believe that scripture then i dont expect you to believe me.

Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Christ came to earth thats the first time - i wont assume we agree anymore our understandings are vastly different.

while Christ was here he said he would come to them again and set up an abode with him who keeps his words, not sure what you think that abode is but i know what it is.

so once Christ comes to someone and sets up abode - i ask how many times did Christ come ?

[keyzer soze]

here is an attempt to re-word my OP such that i am asking the same question in my head.

we all agree that we are all called to share the good news with the lost and through hearing it some will believe and some will not. now where we vastly disagree is by where does this belief come from, is it of ourselves or a gift from God?

my question to the gift from God people, after you have shared the gospel is it biblical to say anything more than believe and be saved? is it biblical to say that they can make a decision and that this decision will save them? i truly don't understand this and i think it does matter. i know how i believe faith came to me and i also know that i wanted to receive Christ. for me it seemed that the desire came first and then the faith much later. so even though i said the sinners prayer and had a great desire to receive Him, it seemed to happen on His time schedule and not mine. i always came away from the invitations confused because i still didn't feel anything. it wasn't until later while studying scripture and salvation that it seemed revealed to me and then all of a sudden i felt saved for the very first time. i do recognize that perhaps i am confusing assurance with salvation but i think that is another topic.

if my one handed typing and briefness has made this difficult to follow let me know and i will try to add more. thanks.

[fewarechosen]

here is an attempt to re-word my OP such that i am asking the same question in my head.

we all agree that we are all called to share the good news with the lost and through hearing it some will believe and some will not. now where we vastly disagree is by where does this belief come from, is it of ourselves or a gift from God?

my question to the gift from God people, after you have shared the gospel is it biblical to say anything more than believe and be saved? is it biblical to say that they can make a decision and that this decision will save them? i truly don't understand this and i think it does matter. i know how i believe faith came to me and i also know that i wanted to receive Christ. for me it seemed that the desire came first and then the faith much later. so even though i said the sinners prayer and had a great desire to receive Him, it seemed to happen on His time schedule and not mine. i always came away from the invitations confused because i still didn't feel anything. it wasn't until later while studying scripture and salvation that it seemed revealed to me and then all of a sudden i felt saved for the very first time. i do recognize that perhaps i am confusing assurance with salvation but i think that is another topic.

if my one handed typing and briefness has made this difficult to follow let me know and i will try to add more. thanks.

this might help a little

Heb_4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

[John146]

did judas the traitor have free-will or was that predestined?

He had free will.

did God create judas to reside in hell?

No. Why would He do that when He wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Eze 18:23) and to be saved (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Tim 2:3-6)?

[John146]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I am sure this verse has already been poo-poo'd for reasons I don't remember in this thread but does it not read plainly enough? Who ordained them?

It says they were ordained to eternal life but not that they were ordained to believe through no choice of their own. They were ordained to eternal life because it was ordained that anyone who would believe in Christ would receive eternal life (John 3:16).

[John146]

God got lucky with Judas helping to fulfill prophesy... also got lucky on the price that was negotiated for betraying Jesus. They could have negotiated any price or Judas could have even done it for free, lucky for God he wanted exactly 30 silver. Zech 11

To know something will happen beforehand is not the same as causing it to happen, right? I'm not sure why you equate foreknowledge with predetermination since those are different things.

[John146]

Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

never said he created rape - so your saying "no" to something i did not say, just wanted to clear that up.

scripture says he created evil, i will stick with scripture

No, scripture says He created calamity/disaster. The Hebrew word translated as "evil" should have been translated as calamity or disaster instead. He didn't create evil, though He obviously did create the possibility for evil to occur. To say that He created evil gives the impression that He is responsible for evil and causes evil to occur, but that is not the case. Each person who commits an evil act is entirely responsible for it, not God.

[keyzer soze]

To know something will happen beforehand is not the same as causing it to happen, right? I'm not sure why you equate foreknowledge with predetermination since those are different things.

so are saying that God doesn't create, chance does, and then God simply reacts to it and works within chance to carry out His plan? so chance brought along Judas and because God could look into the future Jesus selected Him as one of the twelve, is that how you view God's creation?

[John146]

so are saying that God doesn't create, chance does, and then God simply reacts to it and works within chance to carry out His plan?

Sometimes He reacts to what people choose to do. There's no question about that. He certainly doesn't control literally everything that happens, wouldn't you agree? Let me give you a prime example of God reacting to what people chose to do.

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 6For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

It was God's plan to destroy Nineveh for their wickedness on a certain day. But the people of Nineveh chose to repent after being warned about what God was planning to do so He changed His mind and didn't do it.

And sometimes He brings things about entirely by His own volition. An obvious example of that is Him sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world.

so chance brought along Judas and because God could look into the future Jesus selected Him as one of the twelve, is that how you view God's creation?

Yes. God knew what Judas would do if given the chance and that He could use that to serve His purpose. That doesn't mean God created Judas for that purpose. How could anyone think such a thing when we know that God wants all people to repent and to be saved? Why would Judas Iscariot have been an exception to that? If Judas Iscariot had earlier chosen to serve God faithfully then I believe God would have found someone else to serve the purpose that Judas served by betraying Christ.

[Lone Arranger]

Let me apologize up front. I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so I'm stepping into an on going discussion. But I'd just like to point out that God created Satan and the 1/3 of angels that fell with full foreknowledge (because God knows the end from the beginning and all things) that they would rebel and fall. He also created Adam knowing he would fall, and God preplanned salvation before man was ever created.

That is not the same as creating evil, but God foreknew Satan would become evil, bring evil into the world, before Satan or man was created. It can be logically stated then that evil was part of God's foreknown plan from which salvation (the freewill to chose Christ) would come.

These are hard theological concepts to grasp or understand. I posted a question about the origin of evil on Grace Through Faith. It's interesting reading. Here's the link: http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/the-...il/#more-13097 .

[fewarechosen]

No, scripture says He created calamity/disaster. The Hebrew word translated as "evil" should have been translated as calamity or disaster instead. He didn't create evil, though He obviously did create the possibility for evil to occur. To say that He created evil gives the impression that He is responsible for evil and causes evil to occur, but that is not the case. Each person who commits an evil act is entirely responsible for it, not God.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


God created all things as scripture says, to say something was created outside of God is to say God did not create all things.

this scripture below - doesnt say i am the lord and there is none else, except evil and the thing that made it.
none else - not time ,not water, not spirit, not entity, not a speck of dust - THERE IS NONE ELSE

Isa_45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

perhaps we can take an apostels word for it if ?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word, not Word and evil, not Word and thing that made evil. Just Word.

he doesnt say - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and then there is evil over there.

we just see differently, but you are allowed to see as you do, i cant convince you

none^H369

H369
אין
'ayin
ay'-yin
As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle: - else, except, fail [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un [-searchable], well-nigh, without, Compare H370.