Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[LookingUp]

Start here. Respond to each comment in post #514 and #515 the best you can. I promise it's not an attempt to "trip you up."

[david]

for the peeps that believe God didn't create evil do you think He controls it or perfectly limits it? Where do you draw the line?

when they tested the first atomic bomb there were scientist who thought that the reaction would not stop until all matter/atoms reacted... was that a possibility? could all of humanity been wiped out?

does God limit what weapons can be made for evil? we have bullets and bombs, could we have a bomb that will crack the earth in 2 without God's consent and end the human race? could free-will have totally reshaped the world? could all of that evil have been contained on the jews and then there have been no reason to reinstate a jewish nation? could moses have been left to drown in the river?

some questions to think about:
1- before God created anything did He know everything?
2- what came first free-will or creation?
3- does God have a perfect plan or not?
4- who is in control?

look at the prophesies of Christ. do you think those are a function of free-will? when did God design the savior's story, was God limited to the free-will of those who lived in that area at that time? The fact that Mary, Joseph, Jon the Baptist, all His apostles, Pilate, the unrepenting pharisees etc... it was all their free-will outside of God who wrote the story and not God?

So what does this mean to you - “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above." Doesn't Jesus know that Pilate is in his position of power via a set of independent free-will choices? And doesn't Jesus know that the pharisees handed Jesus over of free-will outside of God's prior knowledge before creation? how can Jesus claim that God gave power to someone that was used for evil when both Pilate and the pharisees got to their respective positions of power via a set of free-will choices?

Again I ask, what came first, free-will or creation? if creation did God know all outcomes before or is God learning?

I believe God created a black canvas for which to paint himself in so that his contrast from the darkness would evidence his glory. It began as a totally black canvas in Genesis 1:2... then slowly filled up with brightness until it became totally white in Revelation 22:5. In the process of that painting, we experience different qualities of God which otherwise could not be observed.
"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

[Nobunaga]

this was brilliant! i have to ask, how did you come up with this strange photo?

Welsh town names are notorious for having long unreadable names. I wouldn't like to drive through there as a stranger. Sorry for derailing :-)

[keyzer soze]

What do you mean by this?

this is the only question i see in this post. what i mean is did God have a plan for His creation and does it turn out exactly like he wanted it to or does man's free-will make it impossible for God to get exactly from his creation what he wants? i know when i make something it never turns out perfectly like i had planned because i am not perfect, but God is so hence my question.

[keyzer soze]

How would anyone know that?
- question based on general revelation i guess. seems to me that God limits what weapons can and can't do. what if there was a poison that could be easily made in a basement and wipe out all life in an entire lake in 1 day? just seems that God limited how quickly and easily we can wipe out life.
Doesn’t God have free will?
- yes, but he limits himself to his attributes (God can't sin against himself or break a promise)
Perfect according to who? According to Him, yes, it’s perfect.
- to God - and i agree
Over what?
- over God's creation
Outside of God’s knowledge? Huh?
- poking fun at the concept of free-will outside of God's control. i read that passage as God giving pilate his power, not passively standing by and watching free-will and hence my joke that Jesus must not understand that pilate and the rest of the human race are making free-will choices outside of God's control therefore Jesus's statement is incorrect.

Now my turn: who's design was it that Jesus die on a cross? did God know that would happen because he knew the future or did God ordain that murder from before creation?

[John146]

thanks lookingup and john for answers/posts. i am game for answering questions that you have. i am not game for trying to defend positions that you put me in that i didnt say. if you give me questions i will attempt to answer them though.

Do you have any thoughts on what I've been saying in my last couple of posts? All I would like is for you to specifically address some of the points I've made in my last couple of posts and tell me what you think about what I said. Otherwise, I feel like I'm wasting my time.

[John146]

Actually, it's a wonderful exercise to do your best to defend the opposing position. It's really a great way to strengthen your own position. Oh, let me add. I doubt John146 is attempting to "trip you up." And I wouldn't say that I am either. Maybe it sounds that way at times because we want you to think about what you're saying in different ways and in different lights.

It's very offensive to me for him to suggest that we are purposely trying to trip him up. Why would we do that?

[John146]

this is the only question i see in this post. what i mean is did God have a plan for His creation and does it turn out exactly like he wanted it to or does man's free-will make it impossible for God to get exactly from his creation what he wants? i know when i make something it never turns out perfectly like i had planned because i am not perfect, but God is so hence my question.

What I've been trying to tell you is that sometimes His plans work out perfectly and sometimes they don't. It depends on the situation. If there's something that He wants to be done and He determines that it needs to be done no matter what then He can make it happen and nothing can stop it from happening. No one was going to stop Him from sending His Son to die for the sins of the world, for example. But He also wants all people to repent and to be saved but it hasn't turned out that way because He also wants people to willingly choose to put their faith in Christ rather than Him forcing them to do so.

[LookingUp]

It's very offensive to me for him to suggest that we are purposely trying to trip him up. Why would we do that?

I'm not sure why he would say that. Misunderstanding?

[LookingUp]

What I've been trying to tell you is that sometimes His plans work out perfectly and sometimes they don't. It depends on the situation. If there's something that He wants to be done and He determines that it needs to be done no matter what then He can make it happen and nothing can stop it from happening. No one was going to stop Him from sending His Son to die for the sins of the world, for example. But He also wants all people to repent and to be saved but it hasn't turned out that way because He also wants people to willingly choose to put their faith in Christ rather than Him forcing them to do so.

Yes, this is clearly stated and answers your (keyzer) question perfectly.

[Brother Mark]

What I've been trying to tell you is that sometimes His plans work out perfectly and sometimes they don't. It depends on the situation. If there's something that He wants to be done and He determines that it needs to be done no matter what then He can make it happen and nothing can stop it from happening. No one was going to stop Him from sending His Son to die for the sins of the world, for example. But He also wants all people to repent and to be saved but it hasn't turned out that way because He also wants people to willingly choose to put their faith in Christ rather than Him forcing them to do so.

Correct. There are examples in scripture about this. The Pharisees and Lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves.

Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU

And Jerusalem rejected God's desire for them.

Matt 23:37-38

37 " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
NASU

Jeremiah 18 even talks about how God will change his direction because of the actions of man.

Jer 18:8-10
8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it doesevil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
NASU

So there are things that God makes happen, and things that happen because of how man responds.

Good post.

Mark

[keyzer soze]

john146 if i offended you i apologize. you have to remember i am the guy who is asking the questions and putting out there what i believe. so if someone says, "well your wrong and this is how i think you should read it..." which is how your posts read to me, then i read your posts, reflect that against what i know about scripture and form an opinion. my goal is not to debate or persuade you, i simply don't get something and then after asking get to hear others view on the issue. most of the time i don't see a reason to respond unless i don't understand something in your post. but if i get your meaning but it doesn't align with mine i am not out to persuade anyone unless you asked me and take interest in my view then i am more than happy to type more one-handed.

i think a number of you have done a great job stating your positions, much better job then i can do communicating. and i appreciate all of the time you guys put into it.

ok, lets get back to the OP. so does everyone here believe that inviting someone to say the sinners prayer is the way to get people saved? this was my initial intent, to understand how to structurally share Christ beyond sharing the contents of the Bible since you don't find, "ask Jesus into your heart" or "make the sinner's prayer your own to be saved" in the Bible. I read the Bible to say that the Holy Spirit is involved in unmasking truth and I always assumed that salvation happened on God's timeline and not our timeline.

[Butch5]

fewarechosen

1. 1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Gal_3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

the promise is the same - its being elect - no one plucks you from his hand - eternal life- baptism of fire - holy ghost - sealed - we set up abode with you, its all that same promise.
so the scripture i quoted was that same promise
i know from your post you think its two different ones but i wont try to convince you again you are free to see what you see

You asked me, what is the promise of the Father and if Judas received that promise. I showed you where Jesus said to the disciple to wait for the promise of the Father, which was as Jesus said, the promise of the Spirit.
Gal 3:14 is speaking of the Land promise made to Abraham which is the promise that leads to eternal life. However, the promise has not been given yet as we see from Paul.

Hebrews 11:8-14(KJV)
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sarah herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.


Hebrews 11:39-40(KJV)
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

then you say this,

"Also, just because something was said by a prophet doesn't mean it has already come to pass. The prophets also spoke of Jesus' second coming, surely you wouldn't say He's already come a second time?"

where did i say because it was said of a prophet it came to pass ? its very hard to have a convo when things i never said are brought into it. i said it was told to us by a prophet in OT of course when he wrote it wasnt passed, it only came to pass when Christ came here.

Exactly, you said because Christ has come the prophecy has been fulfilled. That doesn’t follow. Just because Christ came doesn’t mean an OT prophecy has been fulfilled. You said,

OT - waiting till enemies are his footstool
NT - Christ died on cross sits on throne with father

I gave you this scripture

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. notice past tense cannot stress that enough

then you say this

"So, if, as you say Christ is already on the throne that requires that the Day of the Lord has already come. Can you show me evidence for this"

that is your quote above - the evidence that Christ is on throne is Christ himself saying it - look at scripture directly above - Where does Christ say he is set ? it aint me sayin it.

Read the verse, what does it say, where is Christ seated in that verse? He’s seated in His Father’s throne, not His. Isn’t that what we find in Psalm 110?

Psalms 110:1(KJV)
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Christ will reign from David’s throne.

Isaiah 9:6-7(KJV)
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Acts 2:25-36(KJV)
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

We can see from this that Christ, according to the flesh, will reign on David’s throne. That hasn’t happened yet. So, it is David’s throne not the Father’s throne that Jesus will reign from. In addition Peter an apostle, quotes David speaking of the Resurrection of Christ. Then he quotes David who's quoting Psalm 110, indicating that Psalm 110 was fulfilled when Christ was resurrected. That means that Christ was seated at God’s right hand to await his enemies being made His foot stool at the resurrection.

The evidence I had asked for was evidence that the Day of the Lord had already come.

i had quoted this scripture

Joh_3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

then you ask me this

"Well, If Jesus has everything Please explain this passage to me."
What does scripture say was given into his hands ? and if you dont believe that scripture then i dont expect you to believe me.

Just because something has been given to someone doesn’t mean they are in possession of it. Consider the child who has been given a million dollars in a trust fund. Has he been given a million dollars? Yes, he has. Does he have possession of it? No, he doesn’t. Jesus is the promised seed and has been promised the heathen and the ends of the earth for His possession. However, that doesn’t mean He is in possession of it at this moment.

Psalms 2:1-8(KJV)
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.


Hebrews 1:1-2(KJV)
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Christ came to earth thats the first time - i wont assume we agree anymore our understandings are vastly different.

while Christ was here he said he would come to them again and set up an abode with him who keeps his words, not sure what you think that abode is but i know what it is.

so once Christ comes to someone and sets up abode - i ask how many times did Christ come ?

I’m not sure what you think that abode is but let me suggest John’s words

Revelation 21:1-7(KJV)
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

[Butch5]

Keyzer,

I'd like to ask you then, what do you make of the Scriptures? I mean, Jesus, Isaiah, and Paul, all said that Israel had been blinded. They even said that this blinding was so that Israel would not understand and be converted and have their sins forgiven. Clearly that is the reason they needed to be chosen, is it not? Paul clearly explains why the Jews were blinded.

Romans 11:1-11(KJV)
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

The Jews were blinded so that salvation would go to the Gentiles. It's clear that the blinding was intentional. If they were blinded then they could not choose to believe, therefore anyone who would come to Christ "Must" be chosen and have their understanding opened. Thus Jesus quoted the OT, they are all taught of God.

Here's another thought. Notice what Jesus said,

John 6:37-40(KJV)
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus said, all that the Father gives Him "will" come. Then He says this is the will of Him of who sent me, that I "should" lose nothing of all that He has given me but raise it up at the last day.

He says all that were given to Him will come and that He "should" not lose any. The Greek word translated should is in the Subjunctive mood which indicates, possibility or probability, but not certainty. We know that not all of those who were given to Christ will be raised up at the last day because Judas was lost. Judas was one who was given to Christ. However Jesus goes on to say, this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him may have everlasting life and I "Will" raise him up at the last day. Do you see the difference? Here Jesus says, I "will" raise him up. He says I will, not I should. The difference is Jesus said those who were given to Him He "should" raise up but those who believe in Him, He "will" raise. So, Just because a person was given to Christ, it did not necessitate that they would be saved.

Bump

15 characters

[John146]

Correct. There are examples in scripture about this. The Pharisees and Lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves.

Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU

And Jerusalem rejected God's desire for them.

Matt 23:37-38

37 " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
NASU

Jeremiah 18 even talks about how God will change his direction because of the actions of man.

Jer 18:8-10
8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it doesevil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
NASU

So there are things that God makes happen, and things that happen because of how man responds.

Good post.

Mark

Agree. Those examples prove the point so thanks for pointing those out.