Whether Judas was saved or not is not relevant to the issue of his being given to Christ. In the passage you've quoted here Jesus clearly says, "Have I not chosen you twelve, yet one of you" Judas was one of the chosen 12, he was one of those who was given to Christ. The verses that you're using to say people are chosed to salvation are speaking of those who were "Given" to Christ.
That's great but you also need the other half.psalms 115:1 Not to us, LORD, not to us
but to your name be the glory,
because of your love and faithfulness.
that is what i bank my salvation on... not my faithfulness but God's faithfulness. And no, I am not an easy-believism guy, I fully declare Christ Lord of my life but I live it out imperfectly.
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
1 Corinthians 4:1-2(KJV)
1Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
There is a faithfulness required on our part also. God is faithful to keep His promise but His promise is not unconditional.
still don't get what your point is about Judas when Jesus clearly calls him out when he talks about receiving them.
God didnít form their decisions ahead of time. He didnít make them more godly than others ahead of time. He had a plan for Jeremiah as He formed him. If Jeremiah had not went along with what God planned, we wouldnít be reading about Jeremiah in Scripture; weíd be reading about some other man God had made plans for while in the womb of its mother.I guess what I don't understand from this are a few thing:
1- if people like David are who they are because God formed them in the womb like Jerimiah, then do you think these humans pleased God less than yourselves?
My main objection is that Scripture doesnít teach it. God couldíve created a world where we are the puppets and He is the puppet master, but Scripture simply doesnít teach that.it seems that your chief argument against election and faith coming from God is that it would not please Him or glorify him if he is pulling the strings.
And if Paul had refused, weíd be reading about some other apostle that took the gospel to the Gentiles. The details would be different but the story of redemption (Godís plan) would be told.well then i ask what you make of the people in the bible? Saul refuses to believe and persecutes until God works a miracle in him.
Itís a cooperative effort. When a man seeks God, God is ready to be found. When a man draws close to God, God draws close to him. When a man rejects God, God allows the man to move away from him. For the most part, the details of Jesusí ministry were not scripted out. But I do believe that God had to intervene at a greater degree than usual to accomplish certain things that had to be accomplished.Jesus's life was totally scripted out yet God is well pleased with Jesus... i am no scholar of the post times but it seems to me that the people who God took the most action with are likely going to be the people God is most pleased with. i don't see God being less anything with David because God formed him from the start.
Iím not sure what youíre saying here. God does intervene in answer to prayer, with those who are actively following Him, and in certain times in history when it called for His intervention to get things accomplished. That still doesnít mean He controls every single detail of every thing.when it comes to the concept that God is actively controlling some but not all, that to me means he is in all control. if a teacher is capable of keeping kids in their seats and the windows closed but then occasionally allows a child to get up, unlock and open a window and jump out, we would all recognize that even though she had no direct part in the child falling out the window she allowed it to happen. i view "free-will" in that manner. God chooses who/what/when because at the end of the day he controls everything. just like the teacher, he didn't throw the kid out the window, but he could have just as easily authored a different day.
How can you believe in free-will when you believe that God alone chooses who is saved and who isn't? You don't believe that man has the free will to choose whether or not to accept Christ and be saved, you believe that is up to God's choice, right?and i believe from our perspective it does and i will be held accountable. hey, i believe in free-will yet i pray for god to keep me from sinning, i always pray for strength
What does that mean? Where does scripture teach that we "receive faith"?he never received faith
People are condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18). If someone doesn't even have the capability of putting their faith in Christ then why would they be condemned for not doing so?well i believe we all deserve punishment for sin if God is just so YES, it flies with me
saying that all deserve punishment?
Why aren't you sure about that? I think scripture is pretty clear about that. How do you interpret the following passage:i am not sure about this either
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If "the default position is unbelief" then God is responsible for people's unbelief and yet God is not held responsible for people's unbelief, the people themselves are. How do you reconcile this with your doctrine?it seems like that but i don't go that far in stating so. i look at it more like the default position is unbelief and some get belief and some remain in unbelief
God is the one who creates people, right? So, if unbelief is our default position then that means He created us that way. If someone continues to be in unbelief what is the reason for that? Does God make some people that way so that they can't ever believe? Or do people choose to not believe?God would be responsible for turning unbelief to belief. i don't say that God is responsible for unbelief since that is our default position without God
Why exactly is it odd to ask someone to make a decision to follow Christ? (confused about that comment).
Your comment that, "You share the gospel and either they are convicted or not" makes sense to me. You don't have to cut the conversation short, though, if they don't immediately accept Christ. They may have a ton of other questions that when answered will open them up more, soften their hearts, and lead them to eventually desiring Christ.
It doesn't make sense that a man consciously and willingly accepts or rejects the message of Christ?
Both. God knowing something beforehand doesn't mean He causes it to happen. I believe Jesus chose to be obedient to death but could have chosen not to.Did God the father know what Jesus would do or could Jesus have chosen to bail on the salvation plan?
Yes, He was pleased with Him because Jesus willingly obeyed Him (the Father).Was God pleased with Jesus? If so how can this be?
This question is awkward so I'm not sure what you're asking here. It's kind of odd to compare Jesus to me and I'm not comfortable with that comparison. I do believe He had free will and I obviously believe I do as well. But I'm not God like He is so I don't think it makes much sense to compare Him to me. What is true of Him and His nature is not necessarily going to be true of us.Do you have more or less free-will to disobey God and love him less than Jesus did?
No. Why would you ask a question like that? I truly have no idea what you're trying to get at here.Does God love you more than Christ?
i don't get how you can say that Jesus was fully God yet he could have defied God the father and sin in this thread yet you seem to say the opposite in the other thread on God doing evil. Is Jesus not God? Is disobeying God the father not evil? then how can you say that Jesus could have sinned? also, God the father says he is well pleased with Jesus at his baptism before he does anything in his ministry.
i appreciate everyone's time and input but i think we all know where everyone else stands so now we are simply debating.
IMO, that has nothing to do with calvinism or arminianism as both can confuse the matter.
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)