Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[John146]

please explain how you do the multi-quoting.

There may be an easier way, I don't know, but what I do is type (quote) before a section of a post I'm responding to and then put (/quote) at the end of it. Then I do that again for the next section of a post that I'm responding to and so on. Except you have to type brackets instead of parentheses.

[John146]

john146, with your logic i want you to answer a couple of questions for me:

It's fine for you to ask me questions but do you have any thoughts at all about what I said in my post? I asked you a question in my post so why should I answer your questions when you didn't answer mine? I don't like when I take the time to post all that and then I get no response. It makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. I'd be happy to answer your questions but I'd appreciate some kind of response to what I said first. I think that's only fair. Otherwise, it comes across like your response to what I said is "Yeah, whatever, but what about this and that...?".

[Butch5]

i do not believe Judas was ever saved or that Jesus ever thought he was saved, do you?

“I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

Hi Keyzer,

Whether Judas was saved or not is not relevant to the issue of his being given to Christ. In the passage you've quoted here Jesus clearly says, "Have I not chosen you twelve, yet one of you" Judas was one of the chosen 12, he was one of those who was given to Christ. The verses that you're using to say people are chosed to salvation are speaking of those who were "Given" to Christ.

psalms 115:1 Not to us, LORD, not to us
but to your name be the glory,
because of your love and faithfulness.

that is what i bank my salvation on... not my faithfulness but God's faithfulness. And no, I am not an easy-believism guy, I fully declare Christ Lord of my life but I live it out imperfectly.

That's great but you also need the other half.

Revelation 2:8-11(KJV)
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


1 Corinthians 4:1-2(KJV)
1Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Matthew 25:14-30(KJV)
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is a faithfulness required on our part also. God is faithful to keep His promise but His promise is not unconditional.

[LookingUp]

we just differ here. to me what you are saying is that WE choose God and God accepts all that choose. i clearly read scripture to say BOTH choose, but God does the initiating and knows who will choose him. but it seems clear to me that God does more than passively accept, he chooses and elects.

In my opinion, it can be understood in this way. God knows the hearts of all. He sees a "ready heart" and can "choose" him before the man actually confesses Christ. This is one way to understand those few Scriptures that make it seem as if God individually chooses a man before the man chooses to believe in His son. There are also passages that speak of corporate choosing/election. This election was done before the foundation of the world, because Christ (the head and the body) was chosen/elect. Thus, all IN CHRIST are chosen because the Body of Christ had previously been chosen. His Body had already been chosen and if you find yourself IN his Body, then you, too, are part of the Body that was chosen before the foundation of the world.

[keyzer soze]

That would mean only God truly has a choice. How can you say that man has a choice if God chooses for him? i know we differ here and i know you don't like my answer but this is what i believe. hey, i am not fond of it either because i am an engineer and i am fond to logic. however this is what i take away from scripture, this is what i believe after researching this topic for 1 year. i believe there is a paradox in scripture, actually i believe there are a few That's not a choice. i believe it is a choice to me That's just acting out what God already chose for us. does seem like that A true choice would require someone to have free will and have an equal chance of potentially choosing one of at least two options. and i believe from our perspective it does and i will be held accountable. hey, i believe in free-will yet i pray for god to keep me from sinning, i always pray for strength. But that isn't how you see it. The only "choice" man has is to "choose" what God has already chosen. What kind of choice is that? a very real one for me, changed my life It's not really a choice at all in that case. here is where we differ A choice requires at least two valid options but you believe each man has only one option and therefore really has no choice at all.i totally get what you are saying but this is what i take from scripture and i do believe this to be possible with God

But God wishes to have mercy upon all so why do you believe He only wishes to have mercy on some? i meant to use the word GRACE here but i messed up and was too lazy to fix it See, this is not the mystery you think it is. Scripture tells us that God wants to have mercy upon all so it would make no sense to conclude that God just didn't want to have mercy on your friend. again i meant grace... why i receive it and my buddy doesn't is a mystery to me Yes, He does.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So, why doesn't you friend believe? he never received faith It can't be because God doesn't want Him to. God wants all people to repent and to be saved, does He not (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Eze 18:23, John 3;16, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Tim 2:3-6)? So, since it can't be because God doesn't want him to believe or that he can't believe, it has to be because he has chosen to not believe. Let's say someone continues to not believe until they die. Do you think on judgment day that person would be able to say "Well, I had no ability to put my faith in Christ so that's why I didn't. I don't see why I should be punished and condemned for that.". Do you think that would fly? well i believe we all deserve punishment for sin if God is just so YES, it flies with me How do you think Christ would respond to someone saying that? saying that all deserve punishment?

Because he has chosen to refuse to believe. There can be any number of reasons why. Maybe he loves the world more. He doesn't want to answer to anyone. He loves to sin. I don't know his particular reasons, but it's because of his own choice.

So, why would God give you faith and not your friend? i don't know That contradicts the fact that God is not a respecter or persons.i read that verse differently then you do but what else is new

He paid for the sins of your friend as well. Scripture says He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2) including false teachers who deny Him (2 Peter 2:1). So, what does that tell you about the reason your friend's sin are not forgiven up to this point? i don't know It can't be because Christ didn't die for His sins since scripture says that He did. i am not sure about this either It has to be because your friend has so far chosen not to respond to what Christ did for him in the way God requires. If your friend refuses to believe because God made him that way then who would be responsible for his unbelief? it seems like that but i don't go that far in stating so. i look at it more like the default position is unbelief and some get belief and some remain in unbelief God would, right? God would be responsible for turning unbelief to belief. i don't say that God is responsible for unbelief since that is our default position without God But that isn't how it works. You friend will be held accountable for not believing on judgment day if he continues to refuse to believe until he dies (I hope not). The only way he could be held accountable instead of God being accountable for that is if God made it up to him to decide whether or not to accept Christ without determining that for him.

i think i got all your questions

[keyzer soze]

Hi Keyzer,

Whether Judas was saved or not is not relevant to the issue of his being given to Christ. In the passage you've quoted here Jesus clearly says, "Have I not chosen you twelve, yet one of you" Judas was one of the chosen 12, he was one of those who was given to Christ. The verses that you're using to say people are chosed to salvation are speaking of those who were "Given" to Christ.



That's great but you also need the other half.

Revelation 2:8-11(KJV)
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


1 Corinthians 4:1-2(KJV)
1Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Matthew 25:14-30(KJV)
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is a faithfulness required on our part also. God is faithful to keep His promise but His promise is not unconditional.

i believe if you are truly saved, God will finish what he started in you.... if you are truly saved. and here is where we need to look to our deeds/fruits as evidence because we can self deceive. but if you receive Jesus for real, there is no going back.

still don't get what your point is about Judas when Jesus clearly calls him out when he talks about receiving them.

[keyzer soze]

In my opinion, it can be understood in this way. God knows the hearts of all. He sees a "ready heart" and can "choose" him before the man actually confesses Christ. This is one way to understand those few Scriptures that make it seem as if God individually chooses a man before the man chooses to believe in His son. There are also passages that speak of corporate choosing/election. This election was done before the foundation of the world, because Christ (the head and the body) was chosen/elect. Thus, all IN CHRIST are chosen because the Body of Christ had previously been chosen. His Body had already been chosen and if you find yourself IN his Body, then you, too, are part of the Body that was chosen before the foundation of the world.

i don't think there is a question here but you asked that i acknowledge and now it seems you understand my position. so can you also see why the invitation to accept Jesus hurts my brain? to me it seems to need God and man and thus it seems odd to ask someone to make a decision. to me you share the gospel and either they are convicted by the spirit and believe or the don't. but how they can consciously control that with a decisions doesn't make sense to me.

[keyzer soze]

It's fine for you to ask me questions but do you have any thoughts at all about what I said in my post? I asked you a question in my post so why should I answer your questions when you didn't answer mine? I don't like when I take the time to post all that and then I get no response. It makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. I'd be happy to answer your questions but I'd appreciate some kind of response to what I said first. I think that's only fair. Otherwise, it comes across like your response to what I said is "Yeah, whatever, but what about this and that...?".

so i tried to answer you below in the red. i await your answers.

[LookingUp]

gave some thought to this whole thing last night.

i hear lookingup and john146 saying that at times God directly intervenes and limits free-will or protects, etc... so for cases like Moses and Paul you acknowledge God's hand in play in their faith.

No, I don’t think God had a play in their faith any more than anyone else’s faith.

I guess what I don't understand from this are a few thing:
1- if people like David are who they are because God formed them in the womb like Jerimiah, then do you think these humans pleased God less than yourselves?

God didn’t form their decisions ahead of time. He didn’t make them more godly than others ahead of time. He had a plan for Jeremiah as He formed him. If Jeremiah had not went along with what God planned, we wouldn’t be reading about Jeremiah in Scripture; we’d be reading about some other man God had made plans for while in the womb of its mother.

it seems that your chief argument against election and faith coming from God is that it would not please Him or glorify him if he is pulling the strings.

My main objection is that Scripture doesn’t teach it. God could’ve created a world where we are the puppets and He is the puppet master, but Scripture simply doesn’t teach that.

well then i ask what you make of the people in the bible? Saul refuses to believe and persecutes until God works a miracle in him.

And if Paul had refused, we’d be reading about some other apostle that took the gospel to the Gentiles. The details would be different but the story of redemption (God’s plan) would be told.

Jesus's life was totally scripted out yet God is well pleased with Jesus... i am no scholar of the post times but it seems to me that the people who God took the most action with are likely going to be the people God is most pleased with. i don't see God being less anything with David because God formed him from the start.

It’s a cooperative effort. When a man seeks God, God is ready to be found. When a man draws close to God, God draws close to him. When a man rejects God, God allows the man to move away from him. For the most part, the details of Jesus’ ministry were not scripted out. But I do believe that God had to intervene at a greater degree than usual to accomplish certain things that had to be accomplished.

when it comes to the concept that God is actively controlling some but not all, that to me means he is in all control. if a teacher is capable of keeping kids in their seats and the windows closed but then occasionally allows a child to get up, unlock and open a window and jump out, we would all recognize that even though she had no direct part in the child falling out the window she allowed it to happen. i view "free-will" in that manner. God chooses who/what/when because at the end of the day he controls everything. just like the teacher, he didn't throw the kid out the window, but he could have just as easily authored a different day.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. God does intervene in answer to prayer, with those who are actively following Him, and in certain times in history when it called for His intervention to get things accomplished. That still doesn’t mean He controls every single detail of every thing.

[John146]

i think i got all your questions

Yes, but answering the way you did (without quoting each part you were responding to) makes it very difficult for me to respond. Please try to find out how to do multi-quoting because it's difficult to communicate on here otherwise.

and i believe from our perspective it does and i will be held accountable. hey, i believe in free-will yet i pray for god to keep me from sinning, i always pray for strength

How can you believe in free-will when you believe that God alone chooses who is saved and who isn't? You don't believe that man has the free will to choose whether or not to accept Christ and be saved, you believe that is up to God's choice, right?

he never received faith

What does that mean? Where does scripture teach that we "receive faith"?

well i believe we all deserve punishment for sin if God is just so YES, it flies with me

saying that all deserve punishment?

People are condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18). If someone doesn't even have the capability of putting their faith in Christ then why would they be condemned for not doing so?

i am not sure about this either

Why aren't you sure about that? I think scripture is pretty clear about that. How do you interpret the following passage:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

it seems like that but i don't go that far in stating so. i look at it more like the default position is unbelief and some get belief and some remain in unbelief

If "the default position is unbelief" then God is responsible for people's unbelief and yet God is not held responsible for people's unbelief, the people themselves are. How do you reconcile this with your doctrine?

God would be responsible for turning unbelief to belief. i don't say that God is responsible for unbelief since that is our default position without God

God is the one who creates people, right? So, if unbelief is our default position then that means He created us that way. If someone continues to be in unbelief what is the reason for that? Does God make some people that way so that they can't ever believe? Or do people choose to not believe?

[LookingUp]

i don't think there is a question here but you asked that i acknowledge and now it seems you understand my position. so can you also see why the invitation to accept Jesus hurts my brain? to me it seems to need God and man and thus it seems odd to ask someone to make a decision. to me you share the gospel and either they are convicted by the spirit and believe or the don't. but how they can consciously control that with a decisions doesn't make sense to me.

No, I don't see why the invitation to accept Jesus hurts your brain (but the comment made me smile).

Why exactly is it odd to ask someone to make a decision to follow Christ? (confused about that comment).

Your comment that, "You share the gospel and either they are convicted or not" makes sense to me. You don't have to cut the conversation short, though, if they don't immediately accept Christ. They may have a ton of other questions that when answered will open them up more, soften their hearts, and lead them to eventually desiring Christ.

It doesn't make sense that a man consciously and willingly accepts or rejects the message of Christ?

[John146]

john146, with your logic i want you to answer a couple of questions for me:

Was Jesus God?

He is fully man and fully God.

Did God the father know what Jesus would do or could Jesus have chosen to bail on the salvation plan?

Both. God knowing something beforehand doesn't mean He causes it to happen. I believe Jesus chose to be obedient to death but could have chosen not to.

Was God pleased with Jesus? If so how can this be?

Yes, He was pleased with Him because Jesus willingly obeyed Him (the Father).

Do you have more or less free-will to disobey God and love him less than Jesus did?

This question is awkward so I'm not sure what you're asking here. It's kind of odd to compare Jesus to me and I'm not comfortable with that comparison. I do believe He had free will and I obviously believe I do as well. But I'm not God like He is so I don't think it makes much sense to compare Him to me. What is true of Him and His nature is not necessarily going to be true of us.

Does God love you more than Christ?

No. Why would you ask a question like that? I truly have no idea what you're trying to get at here.

[keyzer soze]

He is fully man and fully God.

Both. God knowing something beforehand doesn't mean He causes it to happen. I believe Jesus chose to be obedient to death but could have chosen not to.

Yes, He was pleased with Him because Jesus willingly obeyed Him (the Father).

This question is awkward so I'm not sure what you're asking here. It's kind of odd to compare Jesus to me and I'm not comfortable with that comparison. I do believe He had free will and I obviously believe I do as well. But I'm not God like He is so I don't think it makes much sense to compare Him to me. What is true of Him and His nature is not necessarily going to be true of us.

No. Why would you ask a question like that? I truly have no idea what you're trying to get at here.

multi-quoting is too hard with no mouse. i put the red answers right where i would have put the quotes. i think we have likely taken this as far as it can go. our doctrines are far apart so naturally we are going to disagree on most answers to any question.

i don't get how you can say that Jesus was fully God yet he could have defied God the father and sin in this thread yet you seem to say the opposite in the other thread on God doing evil. Is Jesus not God? Is disobeying God the father not evil? then how can you say that Jesus could have sinned? also, God the father says he is well pleased with Jesus at his baptism before he does anything in his ministry.

i appreciate everyone's time and input but i think we all know where everyone else stands so now we are simply debating.

[Brother Mark]

i don't think there is a question here but you asked that i acknowledge and now it seems you understand my position. so can you also see why the invitation to accept Jesus hurts my brain? to me it seems to need God and man and thus it seems odd to ask someone to make a decision. to me you share the gospel and either they are convicted by the spirit and believe or the don't. but how they can consciously control that with a decisions doesn't make sense to me.

I think I may understand where you are coming from now. (I've been reading the thread with little response for a while.) Indeed, I agree with you in this thing about "decision"! (Though I do believe thought processes, decisions, etc. may be involved in coming to believe because of the way Paul presented the gospel at times.) Salvation is a miracle to be experienced more than it is an argument to be won!!!! Would to God more folks would come to understand this. Nothing wrong with answering peoples questions and engaging their mind. Paul did that repeatedly with King Agrippa and with the Athenians at Mars Hill. But in the end, a miracle must happen for salvation to occur.

IMO, that has nothing to do with calvinism or arminianism as both can confuse the matter.

[keyzer soze]

I think I may understand where you are coming from now. (I've been reading the thread with little response for a while.) Indeed, I agree with you in this thing about "decision"! (Though I do believe thought processes, decisions, etc. may be involved in coming to believe because of the way Paul presented the gospel at times.) Salvation is a miracle to be experienced more than it is an argument to be won!!!! Would to God more folks would come to understand this. Nothing wrong with answering peoples questions and engaging their mind. Paul did that repeatedly with King Agrippa and with the Athenians at Mars Hill. But in the end, a miracle must happen for salvation to occur.

IMO, that has nothing to do with calvinism or arminianism as both can confuse the matter.

so you agree that faith comes from God? i agree it takes a miracle and as far as i know those come from God and not us. Sure Moses raised his hands and performed miracles, but it was God behind those miracles not Moses's staff. sure we preach the gospel and people believe and repent but it is God working that brings us to him, we can not get to him without him.