Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[keyzer soze]

This is something that I am continuing to struggle with. I have a hard time understanding how these 3 doctrines fit together in evangelical Christianity.

1 - God elects. Those the Father draws to Christ, Jesus saves.
2 - Men are wicked, evil and spiritually DEAD, unable to save themselves. God must regenerate the heart before we can receive Him.
3 - We are called to believe in Christ and be saved through God's grace that He gives to anyone who believes.

A good number of the services that I have attended at my church and other evangelical churches typically end with an invitation to the lost to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. While I am NOT trying to say this is impossible or this is wrong, I struggle to understand how it doesn't fly in the face of election and depravity of man. How is the invitation not suggesting that we can self-regenerate?

I recognize all the passages where the apostles are asked "what can we do to receive eternal life?" - Answer is in some form of BELIEVE. Is that the only source of reasoning behind the invitation to make a decision today about Christ?

[John 8:32]

This is something that I am continuing to struggle with. I have a hard time understanding how these 3 doctrines fit together in evangelical Christianity.

1 - God elects. Those the Father draws to Christ, Jesus saves.
2 - Men are wicked, evil and spiritually DEAD, unable to save themselves. God must regenerate the heart before we can receive Him.
3 - We are called to believe in Christ and be saved through God's grace that He gives to anyone who believes.

A good number of the services that I have attended at my church and other evangelical churches typically end with an invitation to the lost to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. While I am NOT trying to say this is impossible or this is wrong, I struggle to understand how it doesn't fly in the face of election and depravity of man. How is the invitation not suggesting that we can self-regenerate?

I recognize all the passages where the apostles are asked "what can we do to receive eternal life?" - Answer is in some form of BELIEVE. Is that the only source of reasoning behind the invitation to make a decision today about Christ?

Peter understood it as...

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus stated it as a calling from the Father, not a decision for Christ.

[keyzer soze]

John, are you suggesting that the invitation is unbiblical?

[John 8:32]

John, are you suggesting that the invitation is unbiblical?

No, just that who accepts is not up to us, it is up to the Father. He does the calling.

Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Able to comprehend the truth? Luke 24:45 says that must come from God. Not everyone can hear and understand the truth today.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

One who is offended easily and chucks it.

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

One who understands, begins to grow and then everyday life crowds out. This is a process, a little less daily Bible study, prayers get shorter, have less substantive content and become more sporadic and finally everyday life becomes most important.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

One who perserveres and grows. Some grow more than others.

[notuptome]

This is something that I am continuing to struggle with. I have a hard time understanding how these 3 doctrines fit together in evangelical Christianity.

1 - God elects. Those the Father draws to Christ, Jesus saves.
2 - Men are wicked, evil and spiritually DEAD, unable to save themselves. God must regenerate the heart before we can receive Him.
3 - We are called to believe in Christ and be saved through God's grace that He gives to anyone who believes.

A good number of the services that I have attended at my church and other evangelical churches typically end with an invitation to the lost to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. While I am NOT trying to say this is impossible or this is wrong, I struggle to understand how it doesn't fly in the face of election and depravity of man. How is the invitation not suggesting that we can self-regenerate?

I recognize all the passages where the apostles are asked "what can we do to receive eternal life?" - Answer is in some form of BELIEVE. Is that the only source of reasoning behind the invitation to make a decision today about Christ?

What you are having difficulty fitting together is not doctrines of Christianity but Calvinism.

God elects...true but God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Men do not come to repentance by their choice not by Gods choice. Jon 3:19-20

Men are wicked and dead spiritually...yet Jesus is the Light of the world that lighteth every man. John 1:9 We must receive Gods grace by faith. The faith we need comes by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17 Heb 11:6 we cannot please God without faith.

We are called to believe in Christ...God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32

When the word of God is proclaimed the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of those who hear it. This is how God draws souls to Christ for salvation and edifies the saints of God who are present. An altar call is to give those with whom God is dealing through conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment an opportunity to act on Gods call to be saved.

An altar call is also useful in allowing believers to get things right with God. There is no such thing as self regeneration but any time Gods word is proclaimed the Holy Spirit is moving in hearts as Gods word never returns to Him void but always accomplishes that which God has purposed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[keyzer soze]

Roger, are you saying that my first 2 points above are incorrect then?

[notuptome]

Roger, are you saying that my first 2 points above are incorrect then?

I'm suggesting that if you view your first two points in the light of what Calvinism teaches you will find yourself in error. Election is not really difficult but easily made to say something that it does not say from a biblical perspective.

God loves all the folks He has created. God wants to save every soul but God will not force any soul to be saved against it's will. God is soverign but God allows for man to choose what he shall do in relation to Christ. In fact as a result of the fall man must choose. Man received the ability to know good and evil as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So now man must choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[quiet dove]

This is something that I am continuing to struggle with. I have a hard time understanding how these 3 doctrines fit together in evangelical Christianity.

1 - God elects. Those the Father draws to Christ, Jesus saves.
2 - Men are wicked, evil and spiritually DEAD, unable to save themselves. God must regenerate the heart before we can receive Him.
3 - We are called to believe in Christ and be saved through God's grace that He gives to anyone who believes.

A good number of the services that I have attended at my church and other evangelical churches typically end with an invitation to the lost to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. While I am NOT trying to say this is impossible or this is wrong, I struggle to understand how it doesn't fly in the face of election and depravity of man. How is the invitation not suggesting that we can self-regenerate?

I recognize all the passages where the apostles are asked "what can we do to receive eternal life?" - Answer is in some form of BELIEVE. Is that the only source of reasoning behind the invitation to make a decision today about Christ?

Peter understood it as...

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus stated it as a calling from the Father, not a decision for Christ.

It seems to me that the truth must harmonize in that it is true that unless we are drawn to Christ we cannot be saved, and, that God desires that no man perish. So to harmonize these two we can know that since God desires that no man perish, He would indeed give invitation, provide a 'drawing' to Christ toward all men. Wouldn't the preaching of the Gospel(sermon) and the invitation to make a decision for Christ, be a means used by God to drawing men to Christ and giving them opportunity to choose?

Men are wicked, their sinful nature in conflict with their Holy Creator. But they must accept Christ, believing, before they can be regenerated. Regeneration comes after, not before, at least that is how I understand it to be. But, God has also provided men with the witness of Himself and the capacity to choose.

The fact is, men are nothing, nor can they get to God without God providing revelation of Himself and then the means to get to Him. But He has and does make it possible for men to find Him if they choose to act upon the revelation and the means.

It's sorta like, I can give you a car and the keys, but you still must get in it and crank it and drive it, but without me, you would not have had the car. We could call the keys revelation and the car the means, I provided but you had to make a decision. (Thats probably not a good example but all I can think of at the moment)

[John 8:32]

It seems to me that the truth must harmonize in that it is true that unless we are drawn to Christ we cannot be saved, and, that God desires that no man perish. So to harmonize these two we can know that since God desires that no man perish, He would indeed give invitation, provide a 'drawing' to Christ toward all men. Wouldn't the preaching of the Gospel(sermon) and the invitation to make a decision for Christ, be a means used by God to drawing men to Christ and giving them opportunity to choose?

Nope. Parable of the sower shows that at this time some are called and some are not. Another very important scripture earlier in the same passage...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Not all are called at this time.

Men are wicked, their sinful nature in conflict with their Holy Creator. But they must accept Christ, believing, before they can be regenerated. Regeneration comes after, not before, at least that is how I understand it to be. But, God has also provided men with the witness of Himself and the capacity to choose.

The fact is, men are nothing, nor can they get to God without God providing revelation of Himself and then the means to get to Him. But He has and does make it possible for men to find Him if they choose to act upon the revelation and the means.

It's sorta like, I can give you a car and the keys, but you still must get in it and crank it and drive it, but without me, you would not have had the car. We could call the keys revelation and the car the means, I provided but you had to make a decision. (Thats probably not a good example but all I can think of at the moment)

If one swallows the SDAs "Great Controversy" thinking, then we gotta get everyone saved at this moment. In reality, this is not the only day of salvation, there is a Great White Throne Judgment and many will brought up in it and brought into God's Family at that time.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Same criteria for judging then as now. What is written in the Bible, the books, all 66 of them.

[quiet dove]

Nope. Parable of the sower shows that at this time some are called and some are not. Another very important scripture earlier in the same passage...
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Not all are called at this time.

I would have to disagree with the application of this parable toward the topic here, in that, this was prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, and the parables, while indeed were teaching truths about Christ, His Father, and the kingdom of God. This is not related in regards to any thing other than at the time, the mystery of the Gospel was not revealed to any other than the disciples, who still did not understand. As we have it recorded later, had they known, they would not have killed Him.

If one swallows the SDAs "Great Controversy" thinking, then we gotta get everyone saved at this moment. In reality, this is not the only day of salvation, there is a Great White Throne Judgment and many will brought up in it and brought into God's Family at that time.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Same criteria for judging then as now. What is written in the Bible, the books, all 66 of them.

I don't know what the SDA controversy is, no expert on SDA, However, I would also have to disagree with the application of these verses also. Those standing at the GWTJ are the dead raised. All those that took part in that final rebellion were killed by fire from heaven. So any that did remain mortally alive would only be the righteous and the names of the righteous would be in the Book of Life. All the unrighteous, now literally off the earth must be raised from the dead to stand trail. I don't find any Biblical support for saying that after mortal death, salvation through Christ is a possibility. The decision of yes to Christ must be made while there is indeed mortal life.

If the name is not in the Book of Life, then that one is not saved through Christ. Then their judgment sentence is according to the deeds written in the book. But that judgement includes and still is a separation from God and eternal punishment. Upon the mortal death of a man/woman, it is a decision made, one way or the other. I don't believe the above quoted scripture applicable toward teaching anything to the contrary. Either ones name is in the Book of Life or it is not. That is my understanding of the whole of scripture in regards to mortal life-death, and the decision that must be made in between those two things happening.

[John 8:32]

[QUOTE=quiet dove;2779319]I would have to disagree with the application of this parable toward the topic here, in that, this was prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, and the parables, while indeed were teaching truths about Christ, His Father, and the kingdom of God. This is not related in regards to any thing other than at the time, the mystery of the Gospel was not revealed to any other than the disciples, who still did not understand. As we have it recorded later, had they known, they would not have killed Him. [\quote]

So, anything Christ said prior to His death, burial and resurrection doesn't count? I don't buy that, but if it is true, what good are the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

I don't know what the SDA controversy is, no expert on SDA,

You really should google it some time. That study alone will be worth the time invested.

However, I would also have to disagree with the application of these verses also. Those standing at the GWTJ are the dead raised. All those that took part in that final rebellion were killed by fire from heaven. So any that did remain mortally alive would only be the righteous and the names of the righteous would be in the Book of Life. All the unrighteous, now literally off the earth must be raised from the dead to stand trail. I don't find any Biblical support for saying that after mortal death, salvation through Christ is a possibility. The decision of yes to Christ must be made while there is indeed mortal life.

The GWTJ is the second resurrection. It is a resurrection to physical life of the dead, people such as Chinese who lived 4000 years ago and never heard the name of Christ, much less read His word.

If the name is not in the Book of Life, then that one is not saved through Christ. Then their judgment sentence is according to the deeds written in the book.

Not book, books. Again, the Bible.

But that judgement includes and still is a separation from God and eternal punishment. Upon the mortal death of a man/woman, it is a decision made, one way or the other. I don't believe the above quoted scripture applicable toward teaching anything to the contrary. Either ones name is in the Book of Life or it is not.

Already a done deal?

That is my understanding of the whole of scripture in regards to mortal life-death, and the decision that must be made in between those two things happening.

I agree the decision has to be made, problem is there are more people who have lived that have not even known there is a decision to be made than have known. God is more than fair and just and...

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He has a plan that is not just this instant, but 7000 years long that gives everyone who ever lived a fair and just opportunity for eternal life.

[quiet dove]

So, anything Christ said prior to His death, burial and resurrection doesn't count? I don't buy that, but if it is true, what good are the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

That is not what I said.

I said I disagreed with the application you put forth and why. Many of those who previously rejected, and even those who supported Him being put to death, later repented and were saved. Also, further down we learn that the people were dull of hearing and that the prophecies were being fulfilled.

But the application toward some not being called at all or 'at that time' in regards to getting another chance at the final judgment, I disagreed with. Actually 'at that time' I would agree with, just not with what you were applying it to with the final judgment of Rev 20. At that time to me would be that time, and as Acts shows us, later, after His resurrection and the means of salvation provided, some who previously rejected Him, then received Him.

If we say that God only offers salvation to some, then the blame then comes upon God for all that are lost. And that is not Biblical. God desires that none should perish and all of His creation is a witness of Himself.

You really should google it some time. That study alone will be worth the time invested.

I am not really interested in a study of SDA doctrines, I know enough to know that.

The GWTJ is the second resurrection. It is a resurrection to physical life of the dead, people such as Chinese who lived 4000 years ago and never heard the name of Christ, much less read His word.

I have to disagree. Those who never heard the name of Christ, is a matter for God, and He is just. But resurrection at the GWTJ I would disagree is back to mortal life.

Not book, books. Again, the Bible.

I understand it says books. And yes, thankyou, the Bible, I do read it...

Already a done deal?

Yes, when mortal life leaves the body one had better have decided for Christ or it is to late.

I agree the decision has to be made, problem is there are more people who have lived that have not even known there is a decision to be made than have known. God is more than fair and just and...

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I agree, He does desire all to come to repentance, but regardless of those who have not heard it, those who have better decide. Those who never heard it would be something that only God knows. And applying resurrection to some type of second mortal life and thus opportunity is, IMHO not a Biblical solid teaching.

God tells us this
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,....

God is just, that we can depend on, if someone has not heard the Gospel, it is a matter for God to know the heart....

[John 8:32]

That is not what I said.

I said I disagreed with the application you put forth and why. Many of those who previously rejected, and even those who supported Him being put to death, later repented and were saved. Also, further down we learn that the people were dull of hearing and that the prophecies were being fulfilled.

Well, I am sorry, I have misunderstood what you posted there.

But the application toward some not being called at all or 'at that time' in regards to getting another chance at the final judgment,

And at this point, you may have misunderstood what I have posted. This is not another chance, it is the FIRST chance for these people. I do not believe in multiple chances, I believe in one. Although, someone once said to me "If God were gracious enough to give someone another chance, would it make you mad?" and after thinking this over I came to the conclusion that if God were gracious enough to give someone 10 chances, I would not be angry, but rather, thankful that God would be that loving and generous.

I am not really interested in a study of SDA doctrines, I know enough to know that.

Point here is that you may believe what they teach without knowing it. Many protestant churches inadvertently teach it. What the SDAs teach is that there is this "Great Controversy" between God and the Devil. God is desparately trying to save souls and the Devil is going about fighting Him and trying to send souls to hell. By the looks of things, the Devil is winning. In actuality, there is no such battle going on. The Devil can only do what God explicitly allows him to do. Read the first couple of chapters of Job and notice the Devil did not just go and afflict Job, he asked God's permission to do so and then only went as far as God allowed him to go. Yes the Devil is the enemy of God and man, but he is not running amok, he is only doing what is allowed him by God. Satan has in no way derailed God's plan and God is not reacting and coming up with spur of the moment fixes. God's plan is being executed exactly as He knew it would from before the first atom of creation was formed. The SDAs got this one wrong just as they have gotten many other concepts wrong.

Yes, when mortal life leaves the body one had better have decided for Christ or it is to late.

I believe that is true for the called...

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The church is being judged right now. Notice...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Judgment is not mentioned for those in the first resurrection. Why? Because those in the first resurrection have already been judged. I believe that I had better be human only once, the second time would be to be cast into the lake of fire.

[Nobunaga]

It's sorta like, I can give you a car and the keys, but you still must get in it and crank it and drive it, but without me, you would not have had the car. We could call the keys revelation and the car the means, I provided but you had to make a decision. (Thats probably not a good example but all I can think of at the moment)

I think a theologically reformed person would say that there would be no desire to get in the car and drive, even if the car was there and he had the keys. (spiritually dead) i'm not having a go as you said it's only an analogy, and a pretty good one. But i think it must be noted that a person cannot motivate himself to desire something that he has no interest in. You must be born again John 3:3-7. Once God grants by Grace the desire/will.... we get in the car and drive to the Gory of God.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. Eph 2

God Bless

[John146]

This is something that I am continuing to struggle with. I have a hard time understanding how these 3 doctrines fit together in evangelical Christianity.

2 - Men are wicked, evil and spiritually DEAD, unable to save themselves. God must regenerate the heart before we can receive Him.

To be dead in one's sins is not equivalent to being unable to recognize and acknowledge that you are a sinner and are in need of being regenerated. That is a false concept taught by the doctrinal system known as Calvinism. Salvation does not result from wicked people saving themselves, it results from sinners recognizing and acknowledging their sinful, lost state and then asking God for forgiveness and putting their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. God wants all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6) and all people are called to repent (Acts 17:30-31). So, if someone doesn't repent they can't say that God didn't call them to repent because He didn't want them to be saved. If someone refuses to ever repent then it is entirely their own fault and their own choice that God will hold them responsible for on judgment day.

A good number of the services that I have attended at my church and other evangelical churches typically end with an invitation to the lost to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. While I am NOT trying to say this is impossible or this is wrong, I struggle to understand how it doesn't fly in the face of election and depravity of man. How is the invitation not suggesting that we can self-regenerate?

Regeneration itself results from being born of the Spirit. You don't have to be regenerated in order to recognize that you are a lost sinner and put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of your sins. You are regenerated as a result of putting your faith and trust in Christ. Jesus compared the offer of salvation to a wedding invitation (Matt 22:1-14) so to invite people to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior goes along with what He taught.