delete post - off topic
delete post - off topic
If your objection to any being eternally condemned is because you can't fathom why or how God could allow such punishment to go on forever, then may I suggest that universalism in not the only alternative. (And I am not trying to start a long discussion of this; this kind of thing has been discussed here before.) At the end of Revelation chapter 20, there is mention of Death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire (this being the 2nd death). Many have wondered if this could indicate the final annihilation of the wicked. So don't feel as if universalism is your only recourse to your objection to perpetual torture.
You don't even see what you are saying in your own post! How could you say Paul is talking to the Jews in Ephesians and then quote from Paul that he is speaking to the Gentiles???
Romans 1:13 were Paul is addressing his audience, he calls them Gentiles.
Romans 11:13 Paul says "For I speak to you Gentiles". What Bible do you have???
Romans 11:28-32 you have an entire passage telling the Gentiles that through the disobedience of the Jews the gospel is being extended to them (Gentiles).
If that's not enough there is more. Now I will say that there were Jews among this mainly Gentile audience but you are WAY off on this one!
edited to say : but then you obviously know more than I do!
question for those who are against election. what do the following verses mean?
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
God initiates everything leading to salvation so that man can NOT take any credit for it WHATSOEVER even though man NEEDS to respond. The Calvinist typically looks at this reasoning as "man doing the work and taking credit for it" and for some reason can not understand that the non-Calvinist sees it as I just laid it out. And I truly don't know ANYONE who even wants to take credit for this marvelous, gracious gift called salvation and it irks me when a typical Calvinist insist on telling ME how I view this.
1 - Jesus draws all
2 - Men need to respond
3 - Father completes the process
This seems contradictory to what Jesus says when He talks about the Father bringing Him the people.
I thought I made this really clear, I guess I didn't. Firstly, I said that in Ephesians Paul is talking "About" the Jews "Not" to the Jews. In Romans Paul is addressing the Jews in the said passages. OK, let's deal with Ephesians first. Paul opens the letter to the church. Then he gives a praise to God, verses 3-12 are this praise to God. This praise called a Hebraism; it is a single sentence in the Greek. In it he praises God for choosing the Jews as His people, for the inheritance that He's given them, for expounding towards them in all wisdom, for predestining them to adoption, and for making them highly favored in the beloved. After this he tells the Ephesians, the Gentiles that you too, after you believed the Gospel you were sealed with the Holy Spirit. He goes on in chapter 2 to explain how the Gentiles were in the world and were without God and Christ and that they were separated from the promises and covenants of Israel. He continues to tell them that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition that divided them and has abolished the ordinances contained in commandments and has made the two (Jew and Gentile) one. Ok, so Paul here writing to the church is speaking "About" the Jews in his praise to God (Hebraism).
Now for Romans. You mentioned Romans 1:13 and Paul addressing the Gentiles. Ok, Paul opens the letter to the church at Rome. This is most likely both Jew and Gentile. Paul begins his letter addressing the church in general as we see in the beginning of chapter 2
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
He says, 'you are inexcusable, O man', this is man in general. However, a few verses later he turns his attention to the Jew.
17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Here he begins to address the Jewish believers at Rome. The Gentile believers were not called Jews. He continues this discussion through to chapter 11. In chapter 11:13 he turns his attention from the Jew to the Gentiles when he says,
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If you read the entire book you'll find that there is no break between the point he begins to address the Jews and the point where he turns to the Gentiles. Additional evidence is given in the fact that from 2:17-11:13 Paul deals extensively with the Law of Moses. After he turns to the Gentiles he only mentions the Law two times in the rest of the book.
I just answered this in Post 382. Notice that Jesus said that about Jews. The Jews were purposely blinded by God, that is why no one could come to Christ unless they were given to him. The only ones that could come to Him were the ones who were given understanding. That's why Jesus said he who has ears to hear let him hear. Jesus, Isaiah, and Paul, all tell that Israel was blinded by God. If you read post 382 and if you still have any question about how I understand it, I'd be happy to answer them.
I think you may have me in mind when you said some think it is for the Jews only. It seems that when I post these things that idea get passed on from what I'm saying. I'd like to clear that up for everyone. I am "NOT" saying that Romans 2:17-11:13 Is "FOR" the Jews only. I am saying that in that section of Romans Paul is "ADDRESSING" the Jews. The letter was written to the entire church. However, Paul addresses both the Jews and the Gentiles in that church in different sections of the letter. As Christians we can read the letter and learn different theological and practical applications that we can use in our Christian lives. However, it is imperative to proper understanding that we don't apply words to the Gentiles that Paul meant for the Jews. For instance we wouldn't take Jesus' words to the Pharisees, where He called them a brood of vipers and apply that to Christians right? So, why would we apply words to Gentiles that Paul said to the Jews.
It is the same thing with the Ephesians 1 passage. I said that in verses 3-12 Paul is writing "About" the Jews. All of the things Paul mentions in those verses are things that God has done for Israel. Now, some of them may also apply to Christians, but, not all of them do. Since all of them don't apply to Christians then it should be clear that Paul is not writing "About" Christians. It is only logical that some of the things Paul mentions in those passages would apply to Christians since Christians have been grafted into the natural olive tree.
The key point I'm trying to make here is that it's important to read carefully what is said. Saying something is written "About" the Jews is vastly different than saying something is written "To" the Jews. These terms are getting mixed up and causing confusion.
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