Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[RollTide21]

delete post - off topic

[Bandit]

BoB,
did you read my previous post to Bandit? If you research the root word translated as eternal it will shed a different light on those and many other scriptures. In fact it changes the whole view of "eternal" hell as we have been taught in the church.

Hello Vicstar,

If your objection to any being eternally condemned is because you can't fathom why or how God could allow such punishment to go on forever, then may I suggest that universalism in not the only alternative. (And I am not trying to start a long discussion of this; this kind of thing has been discussed here before.) At the end of Revelation chapter 20, there is mention of Death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire (this being the 2nd death). Many have wondered if this could indicate the final annihilation of the wicked. So don't feel as if universalism is your only recourse to your objection to perpetual torture.

[Bandit]

So the Jews of Jesus' day understood that they were corporately elected children of God? I happen to agree with that statement. The DID think that and they were WRONG to think that. Romans 9 is very clear (besides John 1:12-14 and so many others) that corporate election does NOT work.

Well, I would suggest that your understanding of these might not be correct, but then you obviously know more than I do.

[BoB/335]

Actually, in going back to get the passages I did notice I made one mistake. Ephesians 2:8 is "Not" speaking of the Jews, the others, however, are. I'm being serious Bob. It will take some time for you to look at this. Let me ask you do you believe the Scriptures are without contradiction?

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The first thing to note here is that "ALL" of the verbs are in the past tense, including glorified. So, whatever Paul is speaking of here, it happened in the past. We also need to look at the context (which you speak of). Who is Paul addressing? As I've pointed out in the other post, he is addressing the Jewish believers at Rome. This whole section Rom. 2:17-11:13 is addressing "thou art called a Jew and restest in the Law". Paul tells them those that God forknew He predestined. So, we need of find out who they are that God foreknew. We know they were people who were alive in Paul's day or before. However, Paul doesn't leave us guessing, he tells us in this very section where he is addressing the Jewish believers.

Romans 11:1-2(KJV)
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

So, we can see that when Paul speaks of the people God foreknew he is speaking of the Jews. This alone is evidence enough, I mean the man who said it should be the one to tell us what it means, but, there is more evidence.

Paul indicates that these are a specific group of people, those who love God. So, we have Jews who loved God in Paul's day or before. But Paul says to the Jewish believers at Rome, "for we know" that God works all things together for good to those how love Him. The Greek word Translated "Know" is "Oidamen", it comes from the Greek word "Eido". It carries the idea of knowing something by seeing or perceiving it. This word "Oidamen" is in the perfect tense. In the perfect tense this means that it was a completed action in the past and the results of that action continue to the present. In other words the Jewish believers at Rome knew that 'God works all things together for good to those who love Him' in the past and they still know it. This is not something new that Paul is teaching them, they've already had this knowledge. How would they have this knowledge? They would have it from their Jewish upbringing and history. Paul's Gentile reader would not necessarily have this knowledge not having known God.

Here is a link that goes into more depth.
http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Rom_8_28.pdf




These two passages in Ephesians are from what is called a "Hebraism". A Hebraism is a Jewish Praise to God. If you look at the Greek you'll find that verse 3-12 are one long continuous sentence. Another important aspect of the passage is Paul's use of first and second plural personal pronouns showing that Paul is speaking of two different groups of people in Ephesians 1. If you notice in verse 12 Paul ends the Hebraism by saying, 'we who first hoped in the Christ'. Then in verse 13 he says 'and you'. In English the pronouns we, us, and our, can be either inclusive or exclusive, which it is is determined by context. For instance, I could call you up and say we went to the supermarket today, you knowing you didn't go would understand that I was using we in an exclusive manner. However, If I called you up and said, we need to go to the supermarket then you would know I am including you and using we in an inclusive manner. The context determines the usage. This is what we have in this Hebraism that Paul writes. The, we, us, and our, are exclusive, he is not including his readers (unless they are Jews). He is speaking as a Jew. At this point I'm going to give you a link that discusses this in depth.

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf

I'm going to give some evidence that I don't believe you'll find in the link. We have to ask if Paul would contradict himself. For instance in verse 11 Paul says,


Ephesians 1:11(KJV)
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Paul says we have obtained an inheritance. He uses the past tense so this inheritance has already been obtained, yet Speaking to his Ephesian readers he says this,

Ephesians 1:14(KJV)
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

An earnest is a down payment. Paul says they have a down payment on their inheritance, he doesn't say they have already received it. So, this inheritance is not the same as the one mentioned in verse 11. So, what is the inheritance in verse 11?


Numbers 26:52-55(KJV)
52And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
53Unto these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names.
54To many thou shalt give the more inheritance, and to few thou shalt give the less inheritance: to every one shall his inheritance be given according to those that were numbered of him.
55Notwithstanding the land shall be divided by lot: according to the names of the tribes of their fathers they shall inherit.

The land was given to Israel for an inheritance. They received it in the past, thus Paul's statement being in the past.

In addition, Paul says,

Ephesians 1:8-9(KJV)
8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Paul says of this group of which he speaks (in which he includes himself), God has abounded toward them in all wisdom and prudence. Who did God abound toward in all wisdom and prudence? It was the Jews, He sent them His word, He guided them, He sent them prophets, He blessed them with miracles an so on. knowing that look at what Paul said to his readers.

Ephesians 1:15-18(KJV)
15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Here Paul says he prays that his readers would receive wisdom and understanding about God. This couldn't possibly be the same group of people as those in verse 8, unless Paul is contradicting himself. How could he say God has abounded toward the Ephesians is all wisdom and turn around and say he is praying that God will give them wisdom?

In addition in verse 8 Paul says that God has made know His will to them. Who did God make His will known to? It was the Jews. Paul even says this.

Ephesians 3:1-6(KJV)
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I believe the amount of evidence in support of this is overwhelming. If you look at it seriously I think you'll agree.

You don't even see what you are saying in your own post! How could you say Paul is talking to the Jews in Ephesians and then quote from Paul that he is speaking to the Gentiles???

Romans 1:13 were Paul is addressing his audience, he calls them Gentiles.

Romans 11:13 Paul says "For I speak to you Gentiles". What Bible do you have???

Romans 11:28-32 you have an entire passage telling the Gentiles that through the disobedience of the Jews the gospel is being extended to them (Gentiles).

If that's not enough there is more. Now I will say that there were Jews among this mainly Gentile audience but you are WAY off on this one!

edited to say : but then you obviously know more than I do!

[LookingUp]

...edited to say : but then you obviously know more than I do!

I'm guessing you're thinking you're speaking to Bandit? Butch5 is a different poster than Bandit. Anyway...didn't know if you caught that or not.

[keyzer soze]

Well, we are trying to not drift too far, but you are getting to see a great many opinions. (But which one do you currently think matches scripture the closest?)

Well MINE of course!!!! LOL. Honestly? Well still mine of course or I would not believe it as truth.... still fun to read these.

[keyzer soze]

question for those who are against election. what do the following verses mean?

John 6:

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

[LookingUp]

question for those who are against election. what do the following verses mean?

John 6:

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

See post #362. Jesus draws all men to himself (John 12:32) and if they do not resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), the Father will complete the drawing process (i.e. they will receive the Holy Spirit), and Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

[keyzer soze]

See post #362. Jesus draws all men to himself (John 12:32) and if they do not resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), the Father will complete the drawing process (i.e. they will receive the Holy Spirit), and Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

so you are saying that its on us to start the process but after we start it the Father will draw us in?

[BoB/335]

I'm guessing you're thinking you're speaking to Bandit? Butch5 is a different poster than Bandit. Anyway...didn't know if you caught that or not.

OOoooopppss!!!! Sorry!

so you are saying that its on us to start the process but after we start it the Father will draw us in?

He's NOT saying that AT ALL! He said God the Father starts the "process" No one comes to the Son UNLESS the Father draws Him. That goes along with None seek after God. Left to our OWN initiative, man would NEVER seek after God. Romans chap 1 is clear that God has been drawing men from the beginning of creation through creation pointing to the Creator. God got more specific. Moses lifted the serpent in the desert (Numbers 21) and all who looked at the lifted serpent lived. Jesus used that passage when He spoke of His death in John 3:14 during His discourse on being "born again" and immediately prior to John 3:16 and says: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
God initiates everything leading to salvation so that man can NOT take any credit for it WHATSOEVER even though man NEEDS to respond. The Calvinist typically looks at this reasoning as "man doing the work and taking credit for it" and for some reason can not understand that the non-Calvinist sees it as I just laid it out. And I truly don't know ANYONE who even wants to take credit for this marvelous, gracious gift called salvation and it irks me when a typical Calvinist insist on telling ME how I view this.

[keyzer soze]

OOoooopppss!!!! Sorry!





He's NOT saying that AT ALL! He said God the Father starts the "process" No one comes to the Son UNLESS the Father draws Him. That goes along with None seek after God. Left to our OWN initiative, man would NEVER seek after God. Romans chap 1 is clear that God has been drawing men from the beginning of creation through creation pointing to the Creator. God got more specific. Moses lifted the serpent in the desert (Numbers 21) and all who looked at the lifted serpent lived. Jesus used that passage when He spoke of His death in John 3:14 during His discourse on being "born again" and immediately prior to John 3:16 and says: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
God initiates everything leading to salvation so that man can NOT take any credit for it WHATSOEVER even though man NEEDS to respond. The Calvinist typically looks at this reasoning as "man doing the work and taking credit for it" and for some reason can not understand that the non-Calvinist sees it as I just laid it out. And I truly don't know ANYONE who even wants to take credit for this marvelous, gracious gift called salvation and it irks me when a typical Calvinist insist on telling ME how I view this.

hey Bob, do you think i am any less irked when you tell me what i believe and how it is wrong? its hard to keep everyone straight in this thread as we have people all over the board so you throw out romans as an example but there are some that think that was for the jewish nation only. it amazes me how people like yourself can jump on me for asking someone ELSE a question about their post, NOT yours and yet in your reply to a question that wasn't even for you, you can manage to put words in my mouth and at the same time complain about others... truly Christian effort there...

[keyzer soze]

so you are saying that its on us to start the process but after we start it the Father will draw us in?

if Bob did not fully speak for you below perhaps you could extrapolate this process out further in light of the verses i asked about. sounds to me at least that you are suggesting a 3 step process above:
1 - Jesus draws all
2 - Men need to respond
3 - Father completes the process

This seems contradictory to what Jesus says when He talks about the Father bringing Him the people.

[Butch5]

You don't even see what you are saying in your own post! How could you say Paul is talking to the Jews in Ephesians and then quote from Paul that he is speaking to the Gentiles???

Romans 1:13 were Paul is addressing his audience, he calls them Gentiles.

Romans 11:13 Paul says "For I speak to you Gentiles". What Bible do you have???

Romans 11:28-32 you have an entire passage telling the Gentiles that through the disobedience of the Jews the gospel is being extended to them (Gentiles).

If that's not enough there is more. Now I will say that there were Jews among this mainly Gentile audience but you are WAY off on this one!

edited to say : but then you obviously know more than I do!

Bob,

I thought I made this really clear, I guess I didn't. Firstly, I said that in Ephesians Paul is talking "About" the Jews "Not" to the Jews. In Romans Paul is addressing the Jews in the said passages. OK, let's deal with Ephesians first. Paul opens the letter to the church. Then he gives a praise to God, verses 3-12 are this praise to God. This praise called a Hebraism; it is a single sentence in the Greek. In it he praises God for choosing the Jews as His people, for the inheritance that He's given them, for expounding towards them in all wisdom, for predestining them to adoption, and for making them highly favored in the beloved. After this he tells the Ephesians, the Gentiles that you too, after you believed the Gospel you were sealed with the Holy Spirit. He goes on in chapter 2 to explain how the Gentiles were in the world and were without God and Christ and that they were separated from the promises and covenants of Israel. He continues to tell them that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition that divided them and has abolished the ordinances contained in commandments and has made the two (Jew and Gentile) one. Ok, so Paul here writing to the church is speaking "About" the Jews in his praise to God (Hebraism).

Now for Romans. You mentioned Romans 1:13 and Paul addressing the Gentiles. Ok, Paul opens the letter to the church at Rome. This is most likely both Jew and Gentile. Paul begins his letter addressing the church in general as we see in the beginning of chapter 2

Romans 2:1(KJV)
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

He says, 'you are inexcusable, O man', this is man in general. However, a few verses later he turns his attention to the Jew.

Romans 2:17(KJV)
17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Here he begins to address the Jewish believers at Rome. The Gentile believers were not called Jews. He continues this discussion through to chapter 11. In chapter 11:13 he turns his attention from the Jew to the Gentiles when he says,

Romans 11:13(KJV)
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

If you read the entire book you'll find that there is no break between the point he begins to address the Jews and the point where he turns to the Gentiles. Additional evidence is given in the fact that from 2:17-11:13 Paul deals extensively with the Law of Moses. After he turns to the Gentiles he only mentions the Law two times in the rest of the book.

[Butch5]

question for those who are against election. what do the following verses mean?

John 6:

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

Hi Keyzer,

I just answered this in Post 382. Notice that Jesus said that about Jews. The Jews were purposely blinded by God, that is why no one could come to Christ unless they were given to him. The only ones that could come to Him were the ones who were given understanding. That's why Jesus said he who has ears to hear let him hear. Jesus, Isaiah, and Paul, all tell that Israel was blinded by God. If you read post 382 and if you still have any question about how I understand it, I'd be happy to answer them.

[Butch5]

hey Bob, do you think i am any less irked when you tell me what i believe and how it is wrong? its hard to keep everyone straight in this thread as we have people all over the board so you throw out romans as an example but there are some that think that was for the jewish nation only. it amazes me how people like yourself can jump on me for asking someone ELSE a question about their post, NOT yours and yet in your reply to a question that wasn't even for you, you can manage to put words in my mouth and at the same time complain about others... truly Christian effort there...

Hi Keyzer,

I think you may have me in mind when you said some think it is for the Jews only. It seems that when I post these things that idea get passed on from what I'm saying. I'd like to clear that up for everyone. I am "NOT" saying that Romans 2:17-11:13 Is "FOR" the Jews only. I am saying that in that section of Romans Paul is "ADDRESSING" the Jews. The letter was written to the entire church. However, Paul addresses both the Jews and the Gentiles in that church in different sections of the letter. As Christians we can read the letter and learn different theological and practical applications that we can use in our Christian lives. However, it is imperative to proper understanding that we don't apply words to the Gentiles that Paul meant for the Jews. For instance we wouldn't take Jesus' words to the Pharisees, where He called them a brood of vipers and apply that to Christians right? So, why would we apply words to Gentiles that Paul said to the Jews.

It is the same thing with the Ephesians 1 passage. I said that in verses 3-12 Paul is writing "About" the Jews. All of the things Paul mentions in those verses are things that God has done for Israel. Now, some of them may also apply to Christians, but, not all of them do. Since all of them don't apply to Christians then it should be clear that Paul is not writing "About" Christians. It is only logical that some of the things Paul mentions in those passages would apply to Christians since Christians have been grafted into the natural olive tree.

The key point I'm trying to make here is that it's important to read carefully what is said. Saying something is written "About" the Jews is vastly different than saying something is written "To" the Jews. These terms are getting mixed up and causing confusion.