Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[LookingUp]

Looking up, I couldn't agree more with your last statement - why would god send his beloved son to die for the sins of the whole world but then put a barrier between us & that salvation? Why only have some come to salvation? It makes no sense.

Amen! God places no barriers whatsoever. Any and all are welcome to take the water of life without cost (Rev. 22:17).

[Butch5]

i read your position and i just disagree. i was taught to read the bible normally and i simply come away with a different mindset then you do after reading. just seems that you are reading into things more then needs to be. appreciate your time though to post your position with the scripture passages.

Keyzer,

I'd like to ask you then, what do you make of the Scriptures? I mean, Jesus, Isaiah, and Paul, all said that Israel had been blinded. They even said that this blinding was so that Israel would not understand and be converted and have their sins forgiven. Clearly that is the reason they needed to be chosen, is it not? Paul clearly explains why the Jews were blinded.

Romans 11:1-11(KJV)
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

The Jews were blinded so that salvation would go to the Gentiles. It's clear that the blinding was intentional. If they were blinded then they could not choose to believe, therefore anyone who would come to Christ "Must" be chosen and have their understanding opened. Thus Jesus quoted the OT, they are all taught of God.

Here's another thought. Notice what Jesus said,

John 6:37-40(KJV)
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus said, all that the Father gives Him "will" come. Then He says this is the will of Him of who sent me, that I "should" lose nothing of all that He has given me but raise it up at the last day.

He says all that were given to Him will come and that He "should" not lose any. The Greek word translated should is in the Subjunctive mood which indicates, possibility or probability, but not certainty. We know that not all of those who were given to Christ will be raised up at the last day because Judas was lost. Judas was one who was given to Christ. However Jesus goes on to say, this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him may have everlasting life and I "Will" raise him up at the last day. Do you see the difference? Here Jesus says, I "will" raise him up. He says I will, not I should. The difference is Jesus said those who were given to Him He "should" raise up but those who believe in Him, He "will" raise. So, Just because a person was given to Christ, it did not necessitate that they would be saved.

[Vicstar]

That's right looking up.....and what I love about that is that the spirit & the bride say come .... thats the spirit of God & the bride which is the church, the elect. The doors of the new Jerusalem are never closed .... Glory to our great & merciful God!

[keyzer soze]

I don't think anyone here is against election since that concept is clearly taught in scripture. What some, like myself, are against is your understanding of election. Just because someone disagrees with your understanding of what election is and how it works doesn't mean they are against election itself.

What it doesn't mean is that God only draws some people to Christ and doesn't bother with the rest. Here's what Jesus said He would do:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So, for God to draw people to Christ is not a case of forcing them to believe in Christ. God calls all people to repentance (Acts 17:30-31) and faith in Christ and wants all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6) but the only one who will actually come to Christ are those who are willing to do so by their own free will choice.

The things He was praying about at that time only applied to His followers. This doesn't mean He didn't ever pray for those who had not put their faith in Him up to that point. But at that particular time He was praying for His followers and praying for their protection (John 17:15) and so on. You can't take single verses here and there and make doctrines out of them. It's easy to read a single verse and think it's saying one thing but then you find a hundred other verses saying something else. That means you were reading the one verse out of context. You have to read the verses in context and also read them in light of the rest of scripture before determining what they mean.

Look at what Jesus said here:

Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

He told His disciples to pray for their enemies. Do you think He would tell them to do that but not do that Himself as well? Of course not, right? So, you can't read a verse like John 17:9 and conclude that Jesus didn't pray for the lost at all or didn't care if they were saved or not. God wants all people to repent and to be saved. I'm not sure how you reconcile that with your doctrine.

John 17:
9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

John, my point wasn't that Jesus here doesn't pray for all, it was that Jesus recognized a distiction between who his father will save and who he won't. does that make ssense?

[keyzer soze]

If I understand this question correctly, my answer is no, your salvation doesn’t depend on if your theology on faith and where it comes from is correct or not. We need the saving and God is the One who does the saving.

No. Our conclusion regarding where faith comes from has no salvific value.

None of this has any salvific value.

God doesn’t save us based on how many doctrines we have correct.

Rest in God. Have peace. God sent His son to die for us because He loves us and wants us to be with Him in His kingdom. If you sent your only beloved son to die so others could join you in your kingdom, you’re going to make sure that as many as possible are blessed by your son’s death.

lookingup, thanks for the answers. glad to see that i agree with someone on something here! LOL

[keyzer soze]

butch, i am out of time, i will get to your post hopefully after work.

[fewarechosen]

A side not about judas he never had his knowledge unlocked by Christ and he never made it to this point. he never got the "promise of my father".

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

[Bandit]

question for those who are against election. what do the following verses mean?

John 6:

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

Hello keyzer soze,

As I have repeatedly stated, no one here is against election. You need to get that point straight. It is the method of election which is at question. (And I am most certainly against individual election and for corporate election.) As far as these verses go, John 6:44 deals with who is called, not who is elect. Those who have refused to listen to the Father are not called to follow the Son. (And by no means does being called to follow the Son guarrantee that the one being called will actually follow the Son - that is still a human choice.) In John 17:9, Jesus is speaking of those who responded to the call, and who were listening to the Father (a human choice); these are the ones Jesus is now praying for.

So I hope you can see that these verses do not necessarily presuppose the doctrine of individual election, but rather, those who assume that doctrine read these as proof of it.

Bandit

[Bandit]

http://focusmagazine.org/Articles/righteousfall.htm

I have lost my joy being part of this forum so I am deciding to leave.

...

Hello BoB,

So how has this forum stolen your joy? If your joy was not originally placed in Christ, then it surely was misplaced, wouln't you agree? And if I might add, if you are not comfortable enough in your identity with Christ to take part in this kind of discussion, then all I can do is ask: Where (or in waht) did you place your faith? If you placed your faith in the doctrine of eternal security, then you faith was misplaced, which may explain why your joy is being threatened. Our joy is to be found only in Jesus.

[Butch5]

A side not about judas he never had his knowledge unlocked by Christ and he never made it to this point. he never got the "promise of my father".

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

But, he was given to Christ by the Father.

[Bandit]

ok, question: does your theology on faith and where it comes from matter for salvation? hypothetically speaking if faith completely comes from God but you think its from yourself does it matter? how about if you think its from God but its from yourself. or if you believe you have been individually selected but you were really part of a corporate selection.

does it matter that we understand where our faith comes from to be saved even if we are completely wrong?

i am almost scared to ask in that this seems like a yes/no question but i wonder if it wont get much more complicated then that.

Hello keyzer soze,

There are multiple questions here, so any answer is going to be protracted. I think that one needs to understand that only God saves, but the question is, how does God save? If God picks individuals randomly (or by some process which does not entail us) then we are in the clear; nothing we do matters. But if God offers salvation to all men, and if the difference between who is saved and who is lost is how they respond, then the theology of faith and salvation very much matters - it is a life and death issue! If there is a responsibility to respond (and continue responding) in a certain way to be saved, then I want to know what that entails. What if, let's say, someone says that all one has to do is 'repent and say the sinner's prayer' to be saved. But what if in reality God demands more. What if God demands that I actively live a certain way, but others tell me that how I live can't affect my salvation? You know, in the end, at the judgement, I want to be accepted by God. That means I'm going to seek what His truth is, and everything is on the table. There is no doctrine which is worth more than being found 'in Him' at the judgement.

Now, having said all this, are there persons with wrong doctrines who will be saved? YES! For in fact, we all probably have some beliefs which are wrong. But are there some things which we could be so wrong on as to miss eternal life? Well, again, YES. For example, if one thinks that 'being saved' means they don't have to be engaged in actively following Christ, then yes, that is a grave error. So then, does being actively engaged involve my moral volition? Yes, it does.

Bandit

[John146]

John 17:
9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

John, my point wasn't that Jesus here doesn't pray for all, it was that Jesus recognized a distiction between who his father will save and who he won't. does that make ssense?

No, it doesn't. Please elaborate on what you're trying to say here.

[fewarechosen]

But, he was given to Christ by the Father.

there is no "But" it should be "and".

yes, he was son of perdition.

it was to note the difference between judas and the other 11/12.

judas never had knowledge unlocked and never got the promise of the father.

[Butch5]

there is no "But" it should be "and".

yes, he was son of perdition.

it was to note the difference between judas and the other 11/12.

judas never had knowledge unlocked and never got the promise of the father.

Regardless, he was one of the 12 who were given to Christ. These are the ones put forth as chosen for salvation by those who hold to unconditional election.

[fewarechosen]

Regardless, he was one of the 12 who were given to Christ. These are the ones put forth as chosen for salvation by those who hold to unconditional election.

ah i dont know much about unconditional election, i just read scripture so i wont speak on what they put forth or dont.

God gave him 12 "fruit" he tossed the rotten one grafted one in, and all those recieved the promise from father.(not including rest of saints - speaking to 12 apostles)

hence judas isnt listed in 12 apostles, never had promise.