I'd like to ask you then, what do you make of the Scriptures? I mean, Jesus, Isaiah, and Paul, all said that Israel had been blinded. They even said that this blinding was so that Israel would not understand and be converted and have their sins forgiven. Clearly that is the reason they needed to be chosen, is it not? Paul clearly explains why the Jews were blinded.
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The Jews were blinded so that salvation would go to the Gentiles. It's clear that the blinding was intentional. If they were blinded then they could not choose to believe, therefore anyone who would come to Christ "Must" be chosen and have their understanding opened. Thus Jesus quoted the OT, they are all taught of God.
Here's another thought. Notice what Jesus said,
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus said, all that the Father gives Him "will" come. Then He says this is the will of Him of who sent me, that I "should" lose nothing of all that He has given me but raise it up at the last day.
He says all that were given to Him will come and that He "should" not lose any. The Greek word translated should is in the Subjunctive mood which indicates, possibility or probability, but not certainty. We know that not all of those who were given to Christ will be raised up at the last day because Judas was lost. Judas was one who was given to Christ. However Jesus goes on to say, this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him may have everlasting life and I "Will" raise him up at the last day. Do you see the difference? Here Jesus says, I "will" raise him up. He says I will, not I should. The difference is Jesus said those who were given to Him He "should" raise up but those who believe in Him, He "will" raise. So, Just because a person was given to Christ, it did not necessitate that they would be saved.
That's right looking up.....and what I love about that is that the spirit & the bride say come .... thats the spirit of God & the bride which is the church, the elect. The doors of the new Jerusalem are never closed .... Glory to our great & merciful God!
9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
John, my point wasn't that Jesus here doesn't pray for all, it was that Jesus recognized a distiction between who his father will save and who he won't. does that make ssense?
butch, i am out of time, i will get to your post hopefully after work.
A side not about judas he never had his knowledge unlocked by Christ and he never made it to this point. he never got the "promise of my father".
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
As I have repeatedly stated, no one here is against election. You need to get that point straight. It is the method of election which is at question. (And I am most certainly against individual election and for corporate election.) As far as these verses go, John 6:44 deals with who is called, not who is elect. Those who have refused to listen to the Father are not called to follow the Son. (And by no means does being called to follow the Son guarrantee that the one being called will actually follow the Son - that is still a human choice.) In John 17:9, Jesus is speaking of those who responded to the call, and who were listening to the Father (a human choice); these are the ones Jesus is now praying for.
So I hope you can see that these verses do not necessarily presuppose the doctrine of individual election, but rather, those who assume that doctrine read these as proof of it.
So how has this forum stolen your joy? If your joy was not originally placed in Christ, then it surely was misplaced, wouln't you agree? And if I might add, if you are not comfortable enough in your identity with Christ to take part in this kind of discussion, then all I can do is ask: Where (or in waht) did you place your faith? If you placed your faith in the doctrine of eternal security, then you faith was misplaced, which may explain why your joy is being threatened. Our joy is to be found only in Jesus.
There are multiple questions here, so any answer is going to be protracted. I think that one needs to understand that only God saves, but the question is, how does God save? If God picks individuals randomly (or by some process which does not entail us) then we are in the clear; nothing we do matters. But if God offers salvation to all men, and if the difference between who is saved and who is lost is how they respond, then the theology of faith and salvation very much matters - it is a life and death issue! If there is a responsibility to respond (and continue responding) in a certain way to be saved, then I want to know what that entails. What if, let's say, someone says that all one has to do is 'repent and say the sinner's prayer' to be saved. But what if in reality God demands more. What if God demands that I actively live a certain way, but others tell me that how I live can't affect my salvation? You know, in the end, at the judgement, I want to be accepted by God. That means I'm going to seek what His truth is, and everything is on the table. There is no doctrine which is worth more than being found 'in Him' at the judgement.
Now, having said all this, are there persons with wrong doctrines who will be saved? YES! For in fact, we all probably have some beliefs which are wrong. But are there some things which we could be so wrong on as to miss eternal life? Well, again, YES. For example, if one thinks that 'being saved' means they don't have to be engaged in actively following Christ, then yes, that is a grave error. So then, does being actively engaged involve my moral volition? Yes, it does.
God gave him 12 "fruit" he tossed the rotten one grafted one in, and all those recieved the promise from father.(not including rest of saints - speaking to 12 apostles)
hence judas isnt listed in 12 apostles, never had promise.
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