Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[keyzer soze]

did judas the traitor have free-will or was that predestined? did God create judas to reside in hell?

[fewarechosen]

did judas the traitor have free-will or was that predestined? did God create judas to reside in hell?

God is not willing that any should perish.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[keyzer soze]

We know that not all of those who were given to Christ will be raised up at the last day because Judas was lost. Judas was one who was given to Christ.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I am sure this verse has already been poo-poo'd for reasons I don't remember in this thread but does it not read plainly enough? Who ordained them?

[keyzer soze]

God is not willing that any should perish.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

so God got lucky that Judas betrayed Jesus?

[fewarechosen]

so God got lucky that Judas betrayed Jesus?

no

are you saying he made judas to burn and does not wish he came to repentance ?

[LookingUp]

did judas the traitor have free-will or was that predestined? did God create judas to reside in hell?

Yikes! What am I reading?! God did NOT create Judas or anyone to reside in hell.

[keyzer soze]

no

are you saying he made judas to burn and does not wish he came to repentance ?

i am saying that it is a paradox because we know BOTH are true. how that works is on God, He made the statement, not me. i believe God knows all outcomes before creation, so He knew Judas would burn but created him anyway. I also believe God wanted Judas to repent somehow because the Bible seems to say just that. but no way do i believe for a second that Judas has free-will outside of God's control.

[keyzer soze]

Yikes! What am I reading?! God did NOT create Judas or anyone to reside in hell.

so God doesn't know who will be saved and who will reside in hell?

[LookingUp]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I am sure this verse has already been poo-poo'd for reasons I don't remember in this thread but does it not read plainly enough? Who ordained them?

keyzer soze, God knows you and your heart so intimately, beyond what a finite person can know about a another, beyond what you know about yourself, that He, and He alone, can tell us how you will react given certain circumstances. Acts 13:48 shows us that God knows what's in a person's heart and He can ordain them to eternal life long before they confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord. What Acts 13:48 does NOT say is WHEN God ordains them to eternal life. Those who assume it is before one's birth or before the foundation of the world, must ASSUME that. It's certainly not in the text.

[keyzer soze]

keyzer soze, God knows you and your heart so intimately, beyond what a finite person can know about a another, beyond what you know about yourself, that He, and He alone, can tell us how you will react given certain circumstances. Acts 13:48 shows us that God knows what's in a person's heart and He can ordain them to eternal life long before they confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord. What Acts 13:48 does NOT say is WHEN God ordains them to eternal life. Those who assume it is before one's birth or before the foundation of the world, must ASSUME that. It's certainly not in the text.

i truly don't mean this to be offensive when i say that i believe that it is logically obvious that God knows all before He created anything. God is not learning on the fly and reacting to sin outside of His control....

[LookingUp]

i truly don't mean this to be offensive when i say that i believe that it is logically obvious that God knows all before He created anything. God is not learning on the fly and reacting to sin outside of His control....

What makes you think things are out of God's control just because He chooses not to control every thing?

[david]

did judas the traitor have free-will or was that predestined? did God create judas to reside in hell?

verses that might help you judge:
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. John 6:38-39
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12
Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” John 18:8-9

[keyzer soze]

verses that might help you judge:
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. John 6:38-39
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12
Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” John 18:8-9

God got lucky with Judas helping to fulfill prophesy... also got lucky on the price that was negotiated for betraying Jesus. They could have negotiated any price or Judas could have even done it for free, lucky for God he wanted exactly 30 silver. Zech 11

[LookingUp]

God got lucky with Judas helping to fulfill prophesy... also got lucky on the price that was negotiated for betraying Jesus. They could have negotiated any price or Judas could have even done it for free, lucky for God he wanted exactly 30 silver. Zech 11

Some believe God has the ability to see into the future because they believe He exists "outside of time." They believe that He can pick and choose what He knows and does not know. Sort of like how we see that Jesus was not privy to the day of the Lord during his ministry. In this case, God chooses not to know who will be saved and not saved. Others believe that time is simply the way we measure the sequence of events. In other words, time is not a real "thing" that God could be in or outside of; it's simply a concept used to help us communicate when things take place. For example, if we say two mountains are 100 miles apart, would we say they only became 100 miles apart when somebody invented the mile? Or were they always 100 miles apart? Their distance from each other hasn't changed. The only difference is that since someone invented the mile, we've been able to measure that distance and communicate it in terms of units. The distance existed before anyone could measure it. Similarly, time has always existed; but there's no evidence in Scripture that God measured time in specific units (days, years, etc.) prior to creation. The very fact that we can speak of "before creation" indicates the existence of time. So, if time has no beginning and is simply a concept used to measure the sequence of events, God is experiencing time along with us. Of course, His knowledge is infinite and He's omnipresent, so He has many things beyond our ability to grasp.

[LookingUp]

God got lucky with Judas helping to fulfill prophesy... also got lucky on the price that was negotiated for betraying Jesus. They could have negotiated any price or Judas could have even done it for free, lucky for God he wanted exactly 30 silver. Zech 11

Just something to chew on... If the verse of Mt. 27:9 had never been written, would you have missed it? Would you have said, "Hey, that prophecy in Zech. 11 (or actually it's written that it was Jeremiah) was never fulfilled? Jesus must not be the Messiah after all!" Why is that the majority of the "fulfilled prophecies" in the New Testament would never have been missed by us if they had never been mentioned as being fulfilled?