Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[John146]

john146 if i offended you i apologize. you have to remember i am the guy who is asking the questions and putting out there what i believe. so if someone says, "well your wrong and this is how i think you should read it..." which is how your posts read to me, then i read your posts, reflect that against what i know about scripture and form an opinion.

But why would you think that LookingUp and I would purposely try to trip you up? There's no question that we think your current view is wrong and we're trying to show you what we think is the correct view but to say that someone is trying to trip you up gives the impression that you think we are playing games and purposely being dishonest in order to coax you into making a mistake or something so we can then say "Aha, we gotcha!". That is not what we're doing at all. We're just trying to have an honest discussion about what scripture teaches regarding these things.

my goal is not to debate or persuade you, i simply don't get something and then after asking get to hear others view on the issue. most of the time i don't see a reason to respond unless i don't understand something in your post. but if i get your meaning but it doesn't align with mine i am not out to persuade anyone unless you asked me and take interest in my view then i am more than happy to type more one-handed.

i think a number of you have done a great job stating your positions, much better job then i can do communicating. and i appreciate all of the time you guys put into it.

Fair enough. I understand you are limited in how much you can post so I can sympathize with that.

ok, lets get back to the OP. so does everyone here believe that inviting someone to say the sinners prayer is the way to get people saved?

What does that mean exactly? What is the sinners prayer exactly as you understand it?

this was my initial intent, to understand how to structurally share Christ beyond sharing the contents of the Bible since you don't find, "ask Jesus into your heart" or "make the sinner's prayer your own to be saved" in the Bible. I read the Bible to say that the Holy Spirit is involved in unmasking truth and I always assumed that salvation happened on God's timeline and not our timeline.

In order to become saved I believe people are required to humble themselves and repent of their sins (Luke 18:9-14) and are required to confess Jesus as their Lord while calling on His name and they are required to believe that He died for their sins and rose again from the dead (Rom 10:9-14). Asking Jesus into your heart is vague and not taught in scripture. If someone is not sorry for their sins and doesn't desire to change their ways and asks Jesus into their heart what good would that do? None. He does come into our hearts but just asking Him to come into our hearts is not enough. And I don't even know what making the sinner's prayer your own even means.

[keyzer soze]

yes! back on topic! i don't have time to post now but i will get some examples of sinner prayers. i will also try to read butch's stuff but that seems like overkill when my fundamental question is how does one biblically invite someone to Christ or is this concept even biblical in the first place.

[John146]

yes! back on topic!

We've been on topic the whole thread. In order to discuss how to invite someone to Christ you have to also discuss whether that's how salvation works and so on and that's why we have to discuss what election means and who can be saved and if it's all up to God or also man's free will choice and so on.

i don't have time to post now but i will get some examples of sinner prayers. i will also try to read butch's stuff but that seems like overkill when my fundamental question is how does one biblically invite someone to Christ or is this concept even biblical in the first place.

It is definitely biblical. That salvation is an invitation can be seen from passages like Matt 22:1-14 and Rev 22:17. As far as how to invite someone there's not just one way to do it but it has to include letting people know their need to humble themselves and repent of their sins and their need to confess Jesus as their Lord and believe that He died for their sins and rose again from the dead.

[keyzer soze]

Bump

15 characters

Butch, i dont see where you are going with this should. Here are other verses for reference:
John 10:27-30 (ESV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 (ESV)
This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”
1 Peter 1:5 (ESV)
who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jude 1:1 (ESV)
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James,
To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

[keyzer soze]

We've been on topic the whole thread. In order to discuss how to invite someone to Christ you have to also discuss whether that's how salvation works and so on and that's why we have to discuss what election means and who can be saved and if it's all up to God or also man's free will choice and so on.

It is definitely biblical. That salvation is an invitation can be seen from passages like Matt 22:1-14 and Rev 22:17. As far as how to invite someone there's not just one way to do it but it has to include letting people know their need to humble themselves and repent of their sins and their need to confess Jesus as their Lord and believe that He died for their sins and rose again from the dead.

the matt passage you reference ends with election "chosen" can you explain what that means to you?

[Butch5]

yes! back on topic! i don't have time to post now but i will get some examples of sinner prayers. i will also try to read butch's stuff but that seems like overkill when my fundamental question is how does one biblically invite someone to Christ or is this concept even biblical in the first place.

Hi Keyzer,

It's fundamental to the issue because if everyone was chosen to salvation before the world began then, it's a moot point, God will make sure it happens. However, if it is within man's will make this choice then it is imperative that we share the gospel.

[LookingUp]

john146 if i offended you i apologize. you have to remember i am the guy who is asking the questions and putting out there what i believe. so if someone says, "well your wrong and this is how i think you should read it..." which is how your posts read to me, then i read your posts, reflect that against what i know about scripture and form an opinion. my goal is not to debate or persuade you, i simply don't get something and then after asking get to hear others view on the issue. most of the time i don't see a reason to respond unless i don't understand something in your post. but if i get your meaning but it doesn't align with mine i am not out to persuade anyone unless you asked me and take interest in my view then i am more than happy to type more one-handed.

It’s just hard to know if you’ve read a comment if you don’t write something like, “OK, but I don’t agree” at the very least. Posts get missed all the time around here. The threads are busy.

i think a number of you have done a great job stating your positions, much better job then i can do communicating. and i appreciate all of the time you guys put into it.

ok, lets get back to the OP. so does everyone here believe that inviting someone to say the sinners prayer is the way to get people saved?

I don’t see anything wrong with it if you’ve done your best to make Christ Jesus known to them. I do think that we often walk away from such a situation and think, “I’ve done my part and now God can do the rest.” We’re called to make disciples, not just “get someone saved.”

this was my initial intent, to understand how to structurally share Christ beyond sharing the contents of the Bible since you don't find, "ask Jesus into your heart" or "make the sinner's prayer your own to be saved" in the Bible. I read the Bible to say that the Holy Spirit is involved in unmasking truth and I always assumed that salvation happened on God's timeline and not our timeline.

God won’t hold back salvation from someone who’s willing to put their faith into His son. It’s not like He’s going to say, “I see that you’ve humbled yourself, repented of your sins, put your faith in my son and the message I shared to mankind through him, but I’m not ready to save you yet since it’s not on My timeline.” Do you understand what I’m saying?

[Brother Mark]

my fundamental question is how does one biblically invite someone to Christ or is this concept even biblical in the first place.

Did Jesus preach the gospel to Israel? Does God invite men to believe, in the scriptures? Do all who are preached to or invited believe?

Jesus preached to his own people, but they rejected him. Yet, he still sent out the gospel call. Why should we be any different?

[Butch5]

Butch, i dont see where you are going with this should. Here are other verses for reference:
John 10:27-30 (ESV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 (ESV)
This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”
1 Peter 1:5 (ESV)
who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jude 1:1 (ESV)
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James,
To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Hi Keyzer,

All of these passages need to be understood in context. That was the purpose of post 382 on page 26, to give context to those statements made by Jesus during His earthly ministry. These verses in John are covered under Jesus' ministry. The Jews were intentionally blinded so that they could not understand the Gospel message. Only those who were chosen and given understanding could understand. I gave you the passages of Scripture from Jesus, Paul, and Isaiah, that all state this plainly. Jesus Himself said that He taught in parables so that the crowds would not understand. This is also evidenced by Jesus' statement that He had "Only" come to the Jews.

Matthew 15:24(KJV)
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That's the context of Jesus' words during His earthly ministry. If the Jews were blinded to the gospel it stands to reason that only those who were chosen and given understanding could come to Christ.

However, let's look at the passages that you've posted.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

This passage doesn't address the issue. The issue is not whether or not God is able to save. The issue is, does God allow mankind to choose. This passage speaks of someone snatching something from God. No, no one can snatch anything from God, but that doesn't mean man cannot leave of his own accord. Conside this, this verse simply cannot mean that man cannot choose to leave because it did it would be in contradiction to Genesis. Adam and Eve obeyed Satan and eat the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Let me ask you, in that event did Satan snatch Adam and Eve out of God's hand? If not then we must understand that Adam and Eve Chose to leave, no? If they could choose to leave, then couldn't anyone choose to leave?

John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 (ESV)
This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”

These two passages speak of the same thing. It seems the way you understand them is contradictory. If no one can choose to leave, how is it that Judas was lost?

1 Peter 1:5 (ESV)
who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

They are being guarded by God's power through what? Through faith, if they choose not to continue in faith will they still be guarded?

Jude 1:1 (ESV)
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James,
To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Actually, The Greek doesn't say kept "for" Jesus Christ. Even so, who is Jude addressing? Those beloved in the Father. Who is beloved of the Father? Wouldn't that be believers? So believers are kept in Christ.

Also, I've pointed out before that this word called is also translated invited. We've seen Jesus' words, 'many are called but few are chosen', that could also be translated many are invited, but few are chosen.

[keyzer soze]

It’s just hard to know if you’ve read a comment if you don’t write something like, “OK, but I don’t agree” at the very least. Posts get missed all the time around here. The threads are busy.

I don’t see anything wrong with it if you’ve done your best to make Christ Jesus known to them. I do think that we often walk away from such a situation and think, “I’ve done my part and now God can do the rest.” We’re called to make disciples, not just “get someone saved.”

God won’t hold back salvation from someone who’s willing to put their faith into His son. It’s not like He’s going to say, “I see that you’ve humbled yourself, repented of your sins, put your faith in my son and the message I shared to mankind through him, but I’m not ready to save you yet since it’s not on My timeline.” Do you understand what I’m saying?

first off i cant do that partial quoting with no mouse, just doing what i am here is driving me batty! try typing with your off hand only for 3 weeks... i hate this.

i get what you are saying, i just disagree. it basically goes back to how i interpret scripture which i see backed up in my life experiences when it comes to coming to faith. i appreciate your position and the time you take to defend it. i believe faith and repentance stem from God... i agree we seem to have to want God as well but it takes God to ultimately convince us that we are lost and in need of Him in the first place.

[keyzer soze]

Did Jesus preach the gospel to Israel? yes
Does God invite men to believe, in the scriptures? yes, seems so although without God scripture doesn't make much sense
Do all who are preached to or invited believe? clearly no

Jesus preached to his own people, but they rejected him. Yet, he still sent out the gospel call. Why should we be any different? did i say that? i believe we are called to share the gospel with ALL. my question resides around the "decision to be saved"

[keyzer soze]

Hi Keyzer,

All of these passages need to be understood in context. That was the purpose of post 382 on page 26, to give context to those statements made by Jesus during His earthly ministry. These verses in John are covered under Jesus' ministry. The Jews were intentionally blinded so that they could not understand the Gospel message. Only those who were chosen and given understanding could understand. I gave you the passages of Scripture from Jesus, Paul, and Isaiah, that all state this plainly. Jesus Himself said that He taught in parables so that the crowds would not understand. This is also evidenced by Jesus' statement that He had "Only" come to the Jews.

Matthew 15:24(KJV)
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That's the context of Jesus' words during His earthly ministry. If the Jews were blinded to the gospel it stands to reason that only those who were chosen and given understanding could come to Christ.

However, let's look at the passages that you've posted.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

This passage doesn't address the issue. The issue is not whether or not God is able to save. The issue is, does God allow mankind to choose. This passage speaks of someone snatching something from God. No, no one can snatch anything from God, but that doesn't mean man cannot leave of his own accord. Conside this, this verse simply cannot mean that man cannot choose to leave because it did it would be in contradiction to Genesis. Adam and Eve obeyed Satan and eat the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Let me ask you, in that event did Satan snatch Adam and Eve out of God's hand? never said that it means you can't sin... do you never sin? If not then we must understand that Adam and Eve Chose to leave, no? they chose to sin like everyone else does. like 1/3rd the angels did. do you think its just a matter of time before all the angels bail out of heaven? If they could choose to leave, then couldn't anyone choose to leave? i don't believe you can escape God's hands if you have truly been reborn. i do believe many will be deceived though and walk away but 0 that are truly His

John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 (ESV)
This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”

These two passages speak of the same thing. It seems the way you understand them is contradictory. If no one can choose to leave, how is it that Judas was lost?read what Jesus said about the exception above... Jesus states the exception for Judas...

1 Peter 1:5 (ESV)
who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

They are being guarded by God's power through what? Through faith, if they choose not to continue in faith will they still be guarded? if its faith given by God it will continue. for me faith is like discovering that a hot stove hurts when you touch it... can i lose this belief if i want to? i don't get why people think its so easy to go from believing to unbelieving. does this happen for you in other things?

Jude 1:1 (ESV)
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James,
To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Actually, The Greek doesn't say kept "for" Jesus Christ. Even so, who is Jude addressing? Those beloved in the Father. Who is beloved of the Father? Wouldn't that be believers? So believers are kept in Christ. agree, all true believers are kept, we agree here

Also, I've pointed out before that this word called is also translated invited. We've seen Jesus' words, 'many are called but few are chosen', that could also be translated many are invited, but few are chosen.

my typing in red above

[keyzer soze]

Hi Keyzer,

All of these passages need to be understood in context. That was the purpose of post 382 on page 26, to give context to those statements made by Jesus during His earthly ministry. These verses in John are covered under Jesus' ministry. The Jews were intentionally blinded so that they could not understand the Gospel message. Only those who were chosen and given understanding could understand. I gave you the passages of Scripture from Jesus, Paul, and Isaiah, that all state this plainly. Jesus Himself said that He taught in parables so that the crowds would not understand. This is also evidenced by Jesus' statement that He had "Only" come to the Jews.

Matthew 15:24(KJV)
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That's the context of Jesus' words during His earthly ministry. If the Jews were blinded to the gospel it stands to reason that only those who were chosen and given understanding could come to Christ.

However, let's look at the passages that you've posted.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

This passage doesn't address the issue. The issue is not whether or not God is able to save. The issue is, does God allow mankind to choose. This passage speaks of someone snatching something from God. No, no one can snatch anything from God, but that doesn't mean man cannot leave of his own accord. Conside this, this verse simply cannot mean that man cannot choose to leave because it did it would be in contradiction to Genesis. Adam and Eve obeyed Satan and eat the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Let me ask you, in that event did Satan snatch Adam and Eve out of God's hand? never said that it means you can't sin... do you never sin? If not then we must understand that Adam and Eve Chose to leave, no? they chose to sin like everyone else does. like 1/3rd the angels did. do you think its just a matter of time before all the angels bail out of heaven? If they could choose to leave, then couldn't anyone choose to leave? i don't believe you can escape God's hands if you have truly been reborn. i do believe many will be deceived though and walk away but 0 that are truly His

John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 (ESV)
This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”

These two passages speak of the same thing. It seems the way you understand them is contradictory. If no one can choose to leave, how is it that Judas was lost?read what Jesus said about the exception above... Jesus states the exception for Judas...

1 Peter 1:5 (ESV)
who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

They are being guarded by God's power through what? Through faith, if they choose not to continue in faith will they still be guarded? if its faith given by God it will continue. for me faith is like discovering that a hot stove hurts when you touch it... can i lose this belief if i want to? i don't get why people think its so easy to go from believing to unbelieving. does this happen for you in other things?

Jude 1:1 (ESV)
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James,
To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Actually, The Greek doesn't say kept "for" Jesus Christ. Even so, who is Jude addressing? Those beloved in the Father. Who is beloved of the Father? Wouldn't that be believers? So believers are kept in Christ. agree, all true believers are kept, we agree here

Also, I've pointed out before that this word called is also translated invited. We've seen Jesus' words, 'many are called but few are chosen', that could also be translated many are invited, but few are chosen.

my typing in red above

[keyzer soze]

gave some thought to this whole thing last night.

i hear lookingup and john146 saying that at times God directly intervenes and limits free-will or protects, etc... so for cases like Moses and Paul you acknowledge God's hand in play in their faith. I guess what I don't understand from this are a few thing:
1- if people like David are who they are because God formed them in the womb like Jerimiah, then do you think these humans pleased God less than yourselves? it seems that your chief argument against election and faith coming from God is that it would not please Him or glorify him if he is pulling the strings. well then i ask what you make of the people in the bible? Saul refuses to believe and persecutes until God works a miracle in him. Jesus's life was totally scripted out yet God is well pleased with Jesus... i am no scholar of the post times but it seems to me that the people who God took the most action with are likely going to be the people God is most pleased with. i don't see God being less anything with David because God formed him from the start.

when it comes to the concept that God is actively controlling some but not all, that to me means he is in all control. if a teacher is capable of keeping kids in their seats and the windows closed but then occasionally allows a child to get up, unlock and open a window and jump out, we would all recognize that even though she had no direct part in the child falling out the window she allowed it to happen. i view "free-will" in that manner. God chooses who/what/when because at the end of the day he controls everything. just like the teacher, he didn't throw the kid out the window, but he could have just as easily authored a different day.

[Butch5]

never said that it means you can't sin... do you never sin? If not then we must understand that Adam and Eve Chose to leave, no? they chose to sin like everyone else does. like 1/3rd the angels did. do you think its just a matter of time before all the angels bail out of heaven?

The issue isn't about sin. Adam and Eve fell under Satan's control or domain in the garden, that is clear from many Scriptures. Paul speaks of being sold under sin, being slaves to sin and death. Scripture clearly says that it is the devil that had the power of death. So, somehow, when they eat the fruit they went from being free to being in bondage to Satan. I can only see two ways for this to happen, either they were snatched away from God, or they choose to obey Satan rather than God. Paul said you are a slave to that which you obey, whether sin unto death or righteousness unto life. Again, who had the power of death. So, by obeying Satan they became his slaves. So, the question is, were they snatched out of God's hand or did God allow then make the choice?

i don't believe you can escape God's hands if you have truly been reborn. i do believe many will be deceived though and walk away but 0 that are truly His

I mean no disrespect, but, it doesn't matter what we believe, our opinions carry no weight whatsoever. It is incumbent on the Christian to seek the truth of what the Scriptures are saying. That means reconciling the totality of Scripture. I used to believe the way you do, that didn't change the meaning of the Scriptures, they still said the same thing whether I believed it or believed what I was taught. Again, I mean no disrespect, but consider this. You obviously think my opinion is wrong, well from where I sit, my opinion is the same to me as yours is to you. So, if my opinion can be wrong, yours is just as likely to be wrong as mine is. Do you see the point I'm getting at? We need to go strictly by the Scriptures and leave our opinions at the door, they serve no purpose in finding the truth of Scripture.

read what Jesus said about the exception above... Jesus states the exception for Judas...

I think you're missing the point. This is speaking of being given to Christ. Jesus Himself makes it clear that Judas "WAS" given to Christ.

John 17:12(KJV)
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus' use of the word, but, indicates that one of them was lost. The reason he was lost has no bearing on the fact of whether or not he was "given" to Christ.

Keyzer, can you please reconcile these to passages for me?

John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 (ESV)
This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”

Does 18:9 contradict 17:12?

if its faith given by God it will continue. for me faith is like discovering that a hot stove hurts when you touch it... can i lose this belief if i want to? i don't get why people think its so easy to go from believing to unbelieving. does this happen for you in other things?

There's a word play involved here. First, you've made an assumption here, " if its faith given by God it will continue." Unless you can support this with Scripture you are imposing it on the text.

for me faith is like discovering that a hot stove hurts when you touch it... can i lose this belief if i want to? i don't get why people think its so easy to go from believing to unbelieving. does this happen for you in other things?

It's not an issue of losing this belief, the issue is, can you touch the stove again? Certainly you can. That's the problem with Martin Luther's definition of faith, it causes confusion. The Biblical definition of faith includes obedience. Looking at it with this definition, the question becomes, after obeying God can I go back to disobeying as I did before I became a Christian. The obvious answer to that question is yes, the Scriptures are replete with warnings about returning to our old lives. Think about it, James says that the devils believe, Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven. Did they all of a sudden not believe that God existed? No, they didn't stop believing in the existence of God, they got kicked out for disobedience. They wouldn't obey God and thus were removed.

A lot of times Christians like to add qualifiers to support their position that simply aren't in the Scriptures. Many Christians say things like, true believer, or someone believes with their heart, etc. The Scriptures don't speak of these qualifiers. John uses the same Greek word for believe in John 3:16 that James uses when he says the devils believe. So, no matter what Christians want to say, the belief devil have is the same that gives believers eternal life, the difference between the two is obedience.

agree, all true believers are kept, we agree here

But this passage doesn't support your position because it speaks of believers. It doesn't address the issue of a believer who chooses not to continue to follow Christ.