Decision for Christ vs. Election & (depravity of man)

[John146]

It depends.

If you are hiking in the mountains and get lost without any food or water, stumbling on a cabin in the woods with a warm fire and a hot meal and water doesn't require much of a decision as to whether or not to knock on the door. You bang on the door and beg for food and water.

If you are hiking in the mountains and you have all of your warm weather gear, a compass, plenty of water, supplies, a food, you might not look twice at a cabin in the woods. Actually, you might say, "Pfft...I've got everything I need."

I don't see how this answers my question, which was "Does man have to decide whether or not to surrender and cry for mercy or does he do it because he just can't help but to do it (in that case why do some do it and some not?).".

There are plenty of people who are in desperate situations like your first example but they still don't repent of their sins and cry out to God for mercy. Look at the following:

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

So, being in a desperate situation does not guarantee that a person will respond by crying out to God for mercy.

Regarding your second example, there are plenty of people who have everything they need in a material sense and don't have many problems in their lives but they can still feel empty inside and feel like something is missing in their lives and realize that all their material wealth is temporary and cannot give them eternal life. One's circumstances do not necessarily dictate whether or not they are willing to ask God for mercy and surrender to Him.

[John146]

Brother Mark, appreciate all your posts because when i read them i feel like you are taking my thoughts and explaining them better than i can. i am going to do something probably stupid and bullet a few things that i believe below which drives my thinking/doctrine

• Salvation requires a miracle
• Miracles come from God
• God's miracle in us can not be undone, if you are one that falls away you were never one that received the miracle but were deceived
• We somehow play a roll in allowing that miracle to happen from our perspective (this is my most shaky bullet point as I feel like I am saying that a sovereign God has boundaries that He can't penetrate with a miracle and I do NOT believe that. So from my perspective I think its a paradox.
• This miracle changes us and the reason for living if its real and the bible gives us ways to test our faith as being genuine from God
• We are adopted into God's family at salvation and God does not unadopt

i am sure i am leaving things out but i have to go. thanks to all who take time here to share. thanks Mark for bringing the OP back into the discussion and you have given me a lot to think about when witnessing. i am like you in that i wanted God, seeked Him, said numerous prayers to receive Him but never had the sense of security until i was alone studying Eph 2:8-10 and it finally hit me, its ALL on God and i can trust Him to provide everything. i didn't have to worry if my faith was enough, if i was responding enough, if i was doing anything enough on my end OTHER THAN trusting that what Jesus did on the cross was enough and wanting him to take over my life.

Whose decision was it for you to trust "that what Jesus did on the cross was enough" and to want "him to take over my life"? Did you have no choice but to want Him to take over your life because He made (forced) you feel that way or did you decide in your heart that is what you wanted? If it was your decision that you wanted that then isn't everyone capable of making that same decision or do you think God only gives some people that ability and not the rest?

[John146]

Food for thought on what faith looks like. How do we know Lot was saved?

Scripture indicates as such.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

What in his life informed us of that?

He was bothered greatly by the wicked behavior going on around him. Also, when God told him to do something he obeyed. Those things show that he believed in righteousness and wanted to serve and obey God and he hated wickedness, which is a sign of someone who is saved.

[keyzer soze]

Food for thought on what faith looks like. How do we know Lot was saved? What in his life informed us of that?

the angels dragged him to safety!

[keyzer soze]

Whose decision was it for you to trust "that what Jesus did on the cross was enough" and to want "him to take over my life"? Did you have no choice but to want Him to take over your life because He made (forced) you feel that way or did you decide in your heart that is what you wanted? If it was your decision that you wanted that then isn't everyone capable of making that same decision or do you think God only gives some people that ability and not the rest?

i don't pretend to understand this. i think this is probably left unknown for a reason, maybe so we will preach to everyone, maybe because it is beyond our ability to understand, perhaps similar to why God seems pretty silent on babies... if God stated that all babies went to heaven i am sure we would abuse this doctrine and it would result in horrendous sins in the name of good. so i really don't have the answers to those great questions you asked and that is why i read some of the books i do and certainly why i made this thread to begin with....

[John146]

i don't pretend to understand this. i think this is probably left unknown for a reason

I appreciate your honesty about this, but why do you say it's unknown? Doesn't scripture teach that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Eze 18:23) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2)? I believe it clearly does so if that's the case can't we easily conclude that He would want to at least give everyone the same opportunity to be saved that you and I have had? It wouldn't make sense for Him to want everyone to repent and be saved but then purposely make it so that not everyone can.

[RollTide21]

I don't see how this answers my question, which was "Does man have to decide whether or not to surrender and cry for mercy or does he do it because he just can't help but to do it (in that case why do some do it and some not?).".

There are plenty of people who are in desperate situations like your first example but they still don't repent of their sins and cry out to God for mercy. Look at the following:

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

So, being in a desperate situation does not guarantee that a person will respond by crying out to God for mercy.

Regarding your second example, there are plenty of people who have everything they need in a material sense and don't have many problems in their lives but they can still feel empty inside and feel like something is missing in their lives and realize that all their material wealth is temporary and cannot give them eternal life. One's circumstances do not necessarily dictate whether or not they are willing to ask God for mercy and surrender to Him.

You misunderstand the analogy and I am not trying to patronize when I say that it is probably my fault.

That analogy wasn't intended to say that our life circumstances being desperate are what cause people to humble themselves before God. The man in the woods was meant to symbolize the condition of the heart. We cry out to the Lord for mercy and salvation when we see the NEED for him. That may or may not have anything to do with what is going on in our lives. That need can only be realized when God shows us that need in our hearts. Example #1 is a guy who has seen the need. Example #2 is a guy who DOESN'T see the need. I am unclear how we can CHOOSE to see the need.

[Brother Mark]

Scripture indicates as such.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

Sure. But from examining his OT life and especially towards the end, what would make you think he was saved?

He was bothered greatly by the wicked behavior going on around him. Also, when God told him to do something he obeyed. Those things show that he believed in righteousness and wanted to serve and obey God and he hated wickedness, which is a sign of someone who is saved.

We know that because Peter tells us that. But what of Lot's life in the OT while he was in Sodom and afterwards would make you or I think he's a man of faith?

[keyzer soze]

I appreciate your honesty about this, but why do you say it's unknown? Doesn't scripture teach that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Eze 18:23) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2)? I believe it clearly does so if that's the case can't we easily conclude that He would want to at least give everyone the same opportunity to be saved that you and I have had? It wouldn't make sense for Him to want everyone to repent and be saved but then purposely make it so that not everyone can.

i have thought about some of this for 6 years and in the past 1.5 years pursued it pretty hard. the answer is that i don't know and to fully explain every road i have been down in my arrival to this conclusion is more than my left hand can type. but general questions lead me to think that we can't fully know. here is a major example: what happens to babies that die?

a) the are judged on what they would do had the lived and heard the gospel (this seems too overly calvinistic)
b) they are basically elected into heaven (calvinistic)
c) they never accept Christ so hell (seems morally wrong)
d) they never have souls in the first place so eradicated like animals (seems contrary to scripture)

[Brother Mark]

I appreciate your honesty about this, but why do you say it's unknown? Doesn't scripture teach that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Eze 18:23) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2)? I believe it clearly does so if that's the case can't we easily conclude that He would want to at least give everyone the same opportunity to be saved that you and I have had? It wouldn't make sense for Him to want everyone to repent and be saved but then purposely make it so that not everyone can.

I agree he wants all to be saved. I don't think he gives all the "same opportunity". Though I do believe ALL have a chance to be saved. For instance, how many people have had a ray of light come down from heaven and for God to speak to them in an audible voice "Why persecutist thou me? It's hard to kick against the pricks."? I think if all had that experience, most would get saved. But that's speculation.

What's not speculation is that Sodom would have been saved had they witnessed what Israel witnessed. Why didn't God do as much for Sodom as he did for Israel to know Him?

I don't know the answer to that question. But I do believe that God desires for all to be saved, that he died for all, and that every man can be saved but won't be. The gospel call is made to all and it is a genuine offer that can be received by men everywhere.

[John146]

Sure. But from examining his OT life and especially towards the end, what would make you think he was saved?

Can't we use 2 Peter 2:6-8 to examine his OT life? I thought I gave you a good answer but I guess it wasn't enough or not what you were looking for. Oh, well. What exactly are you trying to get at here?

We know that because Peter tells us that.

Yeah, so?

But what of Lot's life in the OT while he was in Sodom and afterwards would make you or I think he's a man of faith?

He hated wickedness and he desired to obey God.

[John146]

i have thought about some of this for 6 years and in the past 1.5 years pursued it pretty hard. the answer is that i don't know and to fully explain every road i have been down in my arrival to this conclusion is more than my left hand can type. but general questions lead me to think that we can't fully know. here is a major example: what happens to babies that die?

a) the are judged on what they would do had the lived and heard the gospel (this seems too overly calvinistic)
b) they are basically elected into heaven (calvinistic)
c) they never accept Christ so hell (seems morally wrong)
d) they never have souls in the first place so eradicated like animals (seems contrary to scripture)

Just because there may not be any scripture that speaks about what happens when babies die doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. There is plenty of scripture that speaks of the responsibility of those who are able to hear or read the gospel and respond to it. This is not an issue that the Bible is silent about so I don't see why we can't know the truth of the matter. There is plenty of scripture that speaks of God's requirements and expectations for people who are able to read or hear the gospel.

[Brother Mark]

Can't we use 2 Peter 2:6-8 to examine his OT life? I thought I gave you a good answer but I guess it wasn't enough or not what you were looking for. Oh, well. What exactly are you trying to get at here?

I should have quoted KS when I first put that in there. He was talking about what faith looked like. Lot has been a very encouraging example for me. He lived his life in a rough way at the end, even getting drunk and sleeping with his daughters. He also offered them to the men of the city. (Something has to be said for him though that they were virgins.) His testimony was such that when he did speak of God and coming judgment, he didn't carry much weight with his family.

He set his tent towards Sodom and lived in a place of great wickedness, got drunk and slept with his daughters. And apparently, his daughters thought this was a good thing. Not a lot about his life to encourage me he was saved on the outside. But God, who looks into his heart, saw the great conviction there from the Holy Spirit and knew Lot was a righteous man. God even knows how to save a righteous man who lives a life that falls far short of where we should be, and IMO, Lot is an example of that. Much of his life was wasted, IMO.

So fruit of belief, is not always outward. Sometimes, it is inward.

[John146]

I agree he wants all to be saved. I don't think he gives all the "same opportunity". Though I do believe ALL have a chance to be saved. For instance, how many people have had a ray of light come down from heaven and for God to speak to them in an audible voice "Why persecutist thou me? It's hard to kick against the pricks."? I think if all had that experience, most would get saved. But that's speculation.

I disagree completely with that. I believe that Saul's (Paul's) heart towards God was different than many of the other Pharisees. I believe he loved God and truly wanted to serve and obey Him but was just ignorant about what God really wanted from him and ignorant about Christ (1 Tim 1:12-13). Many of the other Pharisees, on the other hand, only cared about themselves and their power and status and had no real love for God and were far more concerned about that than serving and obeying God.

What's not speculation is that Sodom would have been saved had they witnessed what Israel witnessed. Why didn't God do as much for Sodom as he did for Israel to know Him?

I believe He did enough for Sodom for them to repent. So, I certainly don't think anyone could conclude that He should have done as much there as He did in Capernaum (Matt 11:23) or other parts of Israel so that they would have repented. He did enough for them to repent so that is what matters. But they didn't. I believe He did more in Capernaum and other places in Israel because they were so wicked and more was required in order to try to convince them to repent. I certainly don't believe He did more in Israel because He cared more about the people of Israel than the people of Sodom. He is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

But I do believe that God desires for all to be saved, that he died for all, and that every man can be saved but won't be. The gospel call is made to all and it is a genuine offer that can be received by men everywhere.

That's good enough for me. The other things you mentioned are probably things that we can't prove one way or another but the main thing is that we agree that God offers salvation to everyone and everyone has the opportunity to answer the call and to be saved even though not everyone does, obviously.

[John146]

I should have quoted KS when I first put that in there. He was talking about what faith looked like. Lot has been a very encouraging example for me. He lived his life in a rough way at the end, even getting drunk and sleeping with his daughters. He also offered them to the men of the city. (Something has to be said for him though that they were virgins.) His testimony was such that when he did speak of God and coming judgment, he didn't carry much weight with his family.

He set his tent towards Sodom and lived in a place of great wickedness, got drunk and slept with his daughters. And apparently, his daughters thought this was a good thing. Not a lot about his life to encourage me he was saved on the outside.

There is very little overall about what he did in his daily life in scripture. You have that one example where he sinned (don't we all sin?) but does that mean he never did anything that would show his faith? I highly doubt that.

But God, who looks into his heart, saw the great conviction there from the Holy Spirit and knew Lot was a righteous man. God even knows how to save a righteous man who lives a life that falls far short of where we should be, and IMO, Lot is an example of that. Much of his life was wasted, IMO.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion when there really isn't much detail in scripture about his life. But if you're trying to make the point that what really matters is what is in our hearts then I agree on that. Now, if there was a person who never did anything to reflect the faith they supposedly have in their heart then I'd have to question that person's faith. If we really believe in our hearts then there should be something outward to show that, right? James said faith without works is dead and he showed his faith by his works. We're not saved by works but there should at least be some works to give evidence to reflect our faith and that our lives have been changed. Paul indicated in Eph 2:8-10 that once a person is saved God has some good works for that person to do, so if a person claims to be saved but hasn't done any good works then it seems that there is a problem there and you have to wonder if that person has really been saved or not.