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Thread: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

  1. #46

    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So your conclusion would be that God has angels who are liars then?
    I already addressed this when I said it appears God changed his mind on how the cities would be destroyed. The angels believed they would be used to do it but when the time came, God chose to do it himself. He does the exact same raining down of fire from heaven in the end of Revelation as well.



    Those angels clearly said this. They said...and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
    Yes they said it but when it was time for destruction, God didn't use them. He rained fire down from himself from heaven. The details of the actual event always trumps earlier statements. I told someone I was going to the store today. My friend said they would go instead, so I didn't lie but my first statement never came to pass.


    Why would the Lord God send them to destroy this place, if they never participated in any way, shape of form? If your interpretation were correct, then the passage would have likely said the following instead.

    For THE LORD will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to LET YOU KNOW HE ALONE WILL destroy it.
    God changed his mind on who and how to destroy the cities.

    That sure is a lot of rewriting the Scriptures, when it would be far easier to just stick to the text.
    I am sticking to only the text, but the correct text not the incorrect text.


    Perhaps you all think the same for me, per my interpretation of Genesis 1:26.
    Yes, God had no help in created man in his own image. Angels might have watched, we do not know because tehy aren't mentioned.

    For the life of me tho, I can't understand why many of you would think angels weren't created in God's image? Why not? Give some good reasons why not.
    I have already publicly posted in support of your opinion that angels were created in the image of God.

  2. #47
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    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Angels and humans already look the same physically so that isn't the issue. It's also not in behavior because there are good angels and bad just like humans so that's not the issue. The real difference is this:

    1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Either you are human in a terrestrial or natural body, or you are an "angel" as in a spiritual being in a Celestial or Spiritual body.

    Remember how Jesus was made a little lower than the angels as a human? In the resurrection, we are no longer lower than the angels.
    Hi Ewq,

    In addressing the OP and staying on topic, not much is given about angelic beings at the time of creation... David's [divaD] exploration of Genesis 1:26 - in that the 'we' and 'us' is inclusive of angels is speculation at best for what is within the text, for no where within the text or the teaching within the bible positions that God was speaking of Himself and to the inclusion of angels in vs 1:26, and that his audience of speech were to the angels and not to Himself. The text show a clear plurality in verse 26 and then singular in 27, and submit that God is introduced in vs 1 and the Spirit of God was introduced in vs 2, thus building the support that vs 26 and 27 are about God and not about God and the angels.


    Now to your rabbit trail away from the OP and the character of angels... You site 1 Corinthians 15. I don not see angels anywhere within the text or context of the chapter, so not sure how you can apply this to the OP or to man and angels being the same.... I see a lot of assumptions, sorry.

    And as far as 'Jesus was made a little lower than the angels'.... for which you add or interpret "as a human". Is that what is meant by it? Is the verse in reference to a creative or positional or locational comparative to angels and man?

    Again you say lower = as a human... Could it not mean locational, meaning not in heaven but down on earth? Or could it not mean positional, maybe without all His authority? Could it be that it was Jesus' suffering and dieing that was in sight here when stated lower than the angels and not in his being created as a man? There are lots to consider before drawing a conclusion that this means that by inference that Jesus was created as a man, that Jesus was lower. For is not Jesus 'God with us' as the Son of man? I don't claim to know the heavenly realm with perfection, but all that God created was declared good and very good, so I tend to lean against these verses in Hebrews that focus on creative variances than positional and /or locational.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Angels don't have wings, seraphs do. Bible ignorant men confused the two and then made angels female which isn't true.




    For

    It's the same difference as far as what we shall be like. We will have celestial bodies like those in heaven do.


    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    We won't die because we will have the same eternal body and life force that angels already possess.
    Equal to angels how though? In appearance or in liberties, or in position? Again, I see your theology reading into the text by saying we will have the same eternal body.... You are you just as Jesus is Jesus. And Thomas put his hand into Jesus' hand and side and believed. So by context, Luke states that being like angels = no need for marriage or sex to recreate and no more death and dieing as men do.

    So let's go back to Genesis 1:26, if the 'we' and 'us' are in view as God talking to the angels, where does that come from? Where is the corroborating support?


    Thanks....
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  3. #48

    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    Hi Ewq,

    In addressing the OP and staying on topic, not much is given about angelic beings at the time of creation... David's [divaD] exploration of Genesis 1:26 - in that the 'we' and 'us' is inclusive of angels is speculation at best for what is within the text, for no where within the text or the teaching within the bible positions that God was speaking of Himself and to the inclusion of angels in vs 1:26, and that his audience of speech were to the angels and not to Himself. The text show a clear plurality in verse 26 and then singular in 27, and submit that God is introduced in vs 1 and the Spirit of God was introduced in vs 2, thus building the support that vs 26 and 27 are about God and not about God and the angels.
    I agree 100 percent.



    Now to your rabbit trail away from the OP and the character of angels... You site 1 Corinthians 15. I don not see angels anywhere within the text or context of the chapter, so not sure how you can apply this to the OP or to man and angels being the same.... I see a lot of assumptions, sorry.
    It's really not important. The trail was one I was following you on but it's not a major issue.


    And as far as 'Jesus was made a little lower than the angels'.... for which you add or interpret "as a human". Is that what is meant by it? Is the verse in reference to a creative or positional or locational comparative to angels and man?
    Being made lower than the angels means to be human.

    Gill states, "Christ was made a little lower than the angels, through the assumption of the human nature, which is inferior to angels, especially the corporeal part of it"

    Clarke, "Jesus Christ, as the eternal Logos, or God with God, could not die, therefore a body was prepared for him; and thus βραχυ τι, for a short while, he was made lower than the angels, that he might be capable of suffering death. "


    Again you say lower = as a human... Could it not mean locational, meaning not in heaven but down on earth? Or could it not mean positional, maybe without all His authority?
    Those things apply somewhat but this verse makes it clearer that being made lower is a reference to the frailty of the human body, especially death:

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    This coule not be acheived merely being physically in a lower place or stripped of some authority. No, he had to be made human for this.

    Could it be that it was Jesus' suffering and dieing that was in sight here when stated lower than the angels and not in his being created as a man?
    That's the same thing. Being human means that we are able to die the first death.


    Equal to angels how though? In appearance or in liberties, or in position?
    It says equal, not partially equal.

    Again, I see your theology reading into the text by saying we will have the same eternal body....
    I noticed you didnt specifically comment on this:

    1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Either you are human in a terrestrial or natural body, or you are an "angel" as in a spiritual being in a Celestial or Spiritual body.

    There are two bodies for us. Either a terrestrial which is the human flesh body or the celestial/spiritual body which is the kind angels have.


    You are you just as Jesus is Jesus. And Thomas put his hand into Jesus' hand and side and believed. So by context, Luke states that being like angels = no need for marriage or sex to recreate and no more death and dieing as men do.
    Exactly.

    So let's go back to Genesis 1:26, if the 'we' and 'us' are in view as God talking to the angels, where does that come from? Where is the corroborating support?
    I see none.

  4. #49
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    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    We know that God created the heavens and the earth. But look at this:

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    This ways the Word was with God and was God and made all things. We know the Word was made flesh, so when He was made flesh (born of the virgin Mary) He was then God in the flesh, which is referring to Jesus Christ.

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    He was begotten of the Father so when it says He was with God it's saying He was with God the Father. And yet it calls Him God as well. So, there's clearly a plural nature to God with the Father and the Word both being God (but not two Gods).

    So, when it says in Gen 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" I believe the "us" and "our" refer to the Father and the Word and probably to the Holy Spirit as well and does not include angels like some are suggesting in this thread.

  5. #50
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    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    Hi Ewq,

    In addressing the OP and staying on topic, not much is given about angelic beings at the time of creation... David's [divaD] exploration of Genesis 1:26 - in that the 'we' and 'us' is inclusive of angels is speculation at best for what is within the text,

    Of course it's speculation on my part, just like I would think it's speculation when one sees the trinity in that verse, even tho the verse doesn't clearly indicate whom God is speaking to. I'm not providing this and then stating this is fact ..as in end of discussion, nothing to debate. It's just one of these things I tend to see differently for some reason, so I'm trying to discuss it and see where it goes from there. But what I'm wondering, why would man need to be put into 3 different images and 3 different likenesses? If the Father is not the Son nor Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and if God the Father is speaking to the other 2, and then says..Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, then which of the 3 is God meaning, since these 3 wouldn't be each other? How could man possibly be put into the likeness of a triune God? None of us are 3 different people, or should I say, none of us are one human in 3 different persons, are we?

  6. #51

    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Of course it's speculation on my part, just like I would think it's speculation when one sees the trinity in that verse, even tho the verse doesn't clearly indicate whom God is speaking to. I'm not providing this and then stating this is fact ..as in end of discussion, nothing to debate. It's just one of these things I tend to see differently for some reason, so I'm trying to discuss it and see where it goes from there. But what I'm wondering, why would man need to be put into 3 different images and 3 different likenesses? If the Father is not the Son nor Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and if God the Father is speaking to the other 2, and then says..Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, then which of the 3 is God meaning, since these 3 wouldn't be each other? How could man possibly be put into the likeness of a triune God? None of us are 3 different people, or should I say, none of us are one human in 3 different persons, are we?
    The persons of the Trinity have the same form so man was not created in three different images of God, but one generic image and likeness of God. It merely refers to the basic shape of the body, head, torso, arms and legs etc etc...not exact height or weight or anything exact like that.

  7. #52
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    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The persons of the Trinity have the same form so man was not created in three different images of God, but one generic image and likeness of God. It merely refers to the basic shape of the body, head, torso, arms and legs etc etc...not exact height or weight or anything exact like that.



    I thought the other day you said that the Holy Spirit had no form of His own, or something similar? Also I would be willing to bet that very few trinitarians would agree with you that the Father also has a face, arms, hands, fingers. legs. toes, etc. So I would think you're not speaking for trinitarians in general. Maybe this is how you might explain it, but how would other trinitarians explain it, especially if they didn't even believe the Father has any shape or form of any kind?

  8. #53

    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I thought the other day you said that the Holy Spirit had no form of His own, or something similar?
    Yes that is true. If you read my post carefully I don't say any different regarding the HS, just the other persons.

    Also I would be willing to bet that very few trinitarians would agree with you that the Father also has a face, arms, hands, fingers. legs. toes, etc.
    At first but after I show them the proper documentation in the bible then more would believe it. It's a weird thing for people to render the Father to be the same bodiless spirit that his own personal spirit is.


    So I would think you're not speaking for trinitarians in general.
    I am regarding Elohim.

    Maybe this is how you might explain it, but how would other trinitarians explain it, especially if they didn't even believe the Father has any shape or form of any kind?
    That issue is unimportant in the topic of whether Elohim is the Trinity or the Trinity and angels.

  9. #54
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    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Of course it's speculation on my part, just like I would think it's speculation when one sees the trinity in that verse, even tho the verse doesn't clearly indicate whom God is speaking to.
    Hi David,

    I think we do though. First by grammar, for there is no denying that vs 26 is plural. Now in Verse 1 we see God, verse 2 Spirit of God. Now hold that thought. Now to the teachings of Jesus Himself. Jesus taught how to pray.... And praying to our Father....

    Matt 6:9 "Pray, then, in this way:
    'Our Father who is in heaven,
    Hallowed be Your name.

    Jesus equates God, as Father.

    Jesus' declarative
    John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

    Jesus declares He is God.

    John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

    Jesus declares the Holy Spirit is sent from the Father at the request of Jesus.

    And of course when Jesus was baptized we see the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit in view. So... Jesus and the disciples are revealing the Trinity in oneness... [And there are more scriptures in support that I hope you know sit behind and beside this within the NT in support]

    So now we can go back into Genesis [and all of the OT] and now see and understand scriptures in that one meaning. Thus John declares that within Isaiah 6, that Isaiah saw Jesus on the throne and worshiped Him [John 12:41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.] Now verse 1 and vs 2 of Genesis 1 are God the Father and God the Spirit, and we now know that Jesus was also with God at creation and that Jesus created and sustains the world [Colossians 1], and thus we see Jesus walking in the garden in the cool of the day... We also see Him setting the stage for the worldly battle between the seed of the woman and the seed of the devil in Genesis 3.


    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I'm not providing this and then stating this is fact ..as in end of discussion, nothing to debate. It's just one of these things I tend to see differently for some reason, so I'm trying to discuss it and see where it goes from there.

    Understand... stay close to scripture, all of scriptures though.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    But what I'm wondering, why would man need to be put into 3 different images and 3 different likenesses? If the Father is not the Son nor Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and if God the Father is speaking to the other 2, and then says..Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, then which of the 3 is God meaning, since these 3 wouldn't be each other? How could man possibly be put into the likeness of a triune God? None of us are 3 different people, or should I say, none of us are one human in 3 different persons, are we?

    Good question. But sometimes a simple answer is enough... God is Three Persons. Each Person is fully God. There is one God.


    Most folks like to define what this 'likeness' means, and button hole it to mean just one thing.... for some go down the path of physical attributes, for Jesus is physical; some go down a spiritual path, for God breathed His Spirit inside man, some like to go down an intellectually path, ... man thinks and ponders and chooses; or some say it's His character to love, and some say it's all of them.


    But how does one know for sure? Created in Our Image, according to Our likeness is a very open statement to the object of Man without knowing the subject of God. So I see this a a lifelong earthly pursuit, to know God, to search for Him and see all that He has revealed, to love Him, live for Him. Some things we learn latter on in our faith -- some things we will never be sure, thus trust in God that it as as He has declared, not as I understand or don't understand. I see this as growth in knowing, yet without definitive defining confirmation.... which is pleasingly acceptable to never stop seeking to know Him.

    Hope this helps....

    Blessings to you and for His glory...

    RbG
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  10. #55
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    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    First of all, I'm trinitarian, likely in the same sense that others on this board are also trinitarian. So my goal is not to try and disprove trintarianism(is this even a word?) in any way , shape or form. My conclusions are based on a whole lot of thinking outside of the box, by putting 2 and 2 together based on numerous Scriptures.

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    What's interesting about this verse..it states...And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So then, if this is meaning the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why did the next verse state it this way?

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    One would think if this is meaning the trinity, the verse should have stated the following instead...So God created man in THEIR own image. But as one can see, it doesn't state that at all.

    So what I'm thinking then, where would angels be at in this point in time?
    The Angels cannot be included in the divine 'we' and 'us' statements of Genesis 1:26 and 27.....that 'we' and 'us' can only refer to God Himself.

    The reason angels are disqualified from being included in the 'we' and 'us' is because what God is doing in verse 1:26 and 1:27 is CREATION.

    CREATION is an act, attribute, quality, characteristic, etc....that only belongs to God alone.

    Only God can create man.

    Angels, humans, devils, butterflies, and hippopotamuses need not apply.

    Genesis 1:26-27, and the 'we' and 'us' of it....can only be applied to God Alone.

    Genesis 1:26-27 doesn't explicitly present the Trinity....but it does explicitily present a multiplicity within the Godhead.

    Which later in the NT becomes more deeply explained as existing in the state of the trinity, as one God revealed with three separate and unique equal distinctions with the YHWH Godhead as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

  11. #56
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    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The Angels cannot be included in the divine 'we' and 'us' statements of Genesis 1:26 and 27.....that 'we' and 'us' can only refer to God Himself.

    The reason angels are disqualified from being included in the 'we' and 'us' is because what God is doing in verse 1:26 and 1:27 is CREATION.

    CREATION is an act, attribute, quality, characteristic, etc....that only belongs to God alone.

    Only God can create man.

    Angels, humans, devils, butterflies, and hippopotamuses need not apply.

    Genesis 1:26-27, and the 'we' and 'us' of it....can only be applied to God Alone.

    Genesis 1:26-27 doesn't explicitly present the Trinity....but it does explicitily present a multiplicity within the Godhead.

    Which later in the NT becomes more deeply explained as existing in the state of the trinity, as one God revealed with three separate and unique equal distinctions with the YHWH Godhead as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    Bulls eye! Can't get any more center in the target that this post... Thanks DT for stating the obvious that wasn't stated 'till this point.
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  12. #57

    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The Angels cannot be included in the divine 'we' and 'us' statements of Genesis 1:26 and 27.....that 'we' and 'us' can only refer to God Himself.

    The reason angels are disqualified from being included in the 'we' and 'us' is because what God is doing in verse 1:26 and 1:27 is CREATION.

    CREATION is an act, attribute, quality, characteristic, etc....that only belongs to God alone.

    Only God can create man.

    Angels, humans, devils, butterflies, and hippopotamuses need not apply.

    Genesis 1:26-27, and the 'we' and 'us' of it....can only be applied to God Alone.

    Genesis 1:26-27 doesn't explicitly present the Trinity....but it does explicitily present a multiplicity within the Godhead.

    Which later in the NT becomes more deeply explained as existing in the state of the trinity, as one God revealed with three separate and unique equal distinctions with the YHWH Godhead as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    First off I do not know the answer so I ask you this in sincerity and am not sure if this is out of the box or in it.

    The we, our is there for sure, then it is stated the plural God created (I agree with you only God can) in his, singular image.
    the human, in the image of him (singular), in the image of God (plural), he created him (the human singular I guess), male and female, (in one I guess)

    Why does this not say the image of the plural God is male and female in one.

    BTW I for sure do not know any Hebrew.

  13. #58

    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    First off I do not know the answer so I ask you this in sincerity and am not sure if this is out of the box or in it.

    The we, our is there for sure, then it is stated the plural God created (I agree with you only God can) in his, singular image.
    the human, in the image of him (singular), in the image of God (plural), he created him (the human singular I guess), male and female, (in one I guess)

    Why does this not say the image of the plural God is male and female in one.

    BTW I for sure do not know any Hebrew.
    Not exactly sure what your question is but perhaps this answers it?
    "man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 1 Corinthians 11:8 "
    Woman is from man's image, so female is from male's image, and the image of the male is from God. Man and woman weren't created simultaneously.

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    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    First off I do not know the answer so I ask you this in sincerity and am not sure if this is out of the box or in it.

    The we, our is there for sure, then it is stated the plural God created (I agree with you only God can) in his, singular image.
    the human, in the image of him (singular), in the image of God (plural), he created him (the human singular I guess), male and female, (in one I guess)

    Why does this not say the image of the plural God is male and female in one.

    BTW I for sure do not know any Hebrew.

    Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    The following is pretty much how I've always understood it.

    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him(Genesis 2:7); male and female created he them(Genesis 2:21-22).

    IOW, prior to Genesis 2:21-22 there was no them yet. There was a 'him', meaning Adam. But there was no them, meaning both Adam and Eve, meaning both male and female. At least in relation to man. As far as the animals tho, I would assume God made both male and female simultaneously. But as far as man was concerned, God did it separately. To me that's what Genesis 1:27 seems to be depicting, and if so, it aligns perfectly with Genesis 2.

  15. #60

    Re: Is the trinity in view in Genesis 1:26?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    As far as the animals tho, I would assume God made both male and female simultaneously. But as far as man was concerned, God did it separately. To me that's what Genesis 1:27 seems to be depicting, and if so, it aligns perfectly with Genesis 2.
    Question, what was created first, humans or animals?

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