That means we're in agreement then, since to understand Genesis 2 properly, one has to use the outline in Genesis 1. In Genesis 1, everything is in the correct order. In Genesis 2, the focus is not so much chronology, except that it shows God first made a man, and out of that man He made a 'them', meaning both male and female.
1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Here's a real interesting passage that I'm sure most are familiar with, so nothing new here, I'm sure. Notice what verse 19 states...I saw the LORD sitting on his throne. Notice there is only one throne there, and only one person sitting on it. But anyway, verse 19 goes on to say....and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
If one continues reading, for one thing, no trinity in the picture here. for another thing, the LORD is indeed consulting with the heavenly host about certain matters. This passage alone is ample proof that in Genesis 1:26 God could have indeed been consulting with all the host of heaven. It's not like He never ever does it or something. 1 Kings 22 clearly shows that He does.
Let's suppose God/Elohim is a reference to God and the angels working together, consulting, brainstorming, even creating man then how does that affect the scriptures:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God and the Angels created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God and the Angels moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God and the Angels said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God and the Angels saw the light, that it was good: and God and the Angels divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God and the Angels called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God and the Angels said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God and the Angels made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God and the Angels called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God and the Angels said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God and the Angels called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God and the Angels saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God and the Angels said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God and the Angels saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God and the Angels said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God and the Angels made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God and the Angels set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God and the Angels saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God and the Angels said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God and the Angels created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God and the Angels saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God and the Angels blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God and the Angels said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God and the Angels made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God and the Angels saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God and the Angels said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God and the Angels created man in THEIR own imageS, in the imageS of God and the Angels created THEY him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God and the Angels blessed them, and God and the Angels said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God and the Angels said, Behold, WE have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, WE have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God and the Angels saw every thing that THEY had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
The word Elohim is a plural word with a singular meaning. Fast forward to the NT and the revealing of the Trinity, we still see God being composed of more than one yet still being a singular God.There are two possible ways to read the 'us'. Both of these require 21st-century Americans to stop thinking in a literalistic, modernist perspective, because this was not the perspective the ancient Israelites had when writing and reading Scripture. It's a culture gap, and it's one many American Christians refuse to acknowledge. Either,
(1) God is referring to himself in the 'majestic plural'. This is rare within the Old Testament, but there are a few occasions that it shows up, and it was a concept used in the ancient near east.
Do you have any OT examples of this type of language being used where its more obvious only God was doing something while using "us" but not meaning "them"? The other issue with this theory is that the scripture do credit Elohim specically as having created man, more than one time in scripture so if Elohim does mean God and the Angels, then the Angels did participate in creating man after their own images.(2) God is speaking about himself and the angels, the heavenly court. This does not mean that the angels did any actual act of creating, but rather that God is inviting the angels to witness what he will do. It's no different than if I was to say, 'Let's change your diaper' to my infant daughter, even if I am the one doing the change and she's just hanging out. 'Let us' does not always means that the 'us' is carrying out the action. Insisting that 'Let us' must literally mean 'the us is doing the action' in Genesis 1.26 is simply hypocritical when we 21st-century Americans often use 'Let us' to figuratively mean 'the us is just spectating'.
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.The next time God refers to 'us' or 'we' is in Genesis 3, where he is clearly including (at the least) the cherubim. Another example occurs in Isaiah 6, where 'us' stands for God and the heavenly court (particularly the seraphim).
The word LORD here is not Elohim. You probably know in neither of the verses in question is the word "us" or "we" even in the originals. It's added for the english but in this case I think "for us" is not needed.
Prefer to focus on the word Elohim since it's the one that's key.Elohim
(1) The Hebrew word elohim is, yes, the plural form of the word 'god'. But throughout the Old Testament, dozens, if not hundreds, of nouns are put in their plural form even when referring to a single object. Just because God is referred to with the plural form 'elohim' does not inherently mean that God is plural persons, anymore than David is plural persons because he is called the plural form of 'youth' in 1 Samuel 17.33.
Specific examples should be named not only mentioned. I do not know where all these are located.(2) Throughout the Old Testament, various persons other than God are referred to with 'elohim', both individuals and groups. God's heavenly court (i.e. the angels) are called 'elohim'. Moses is called 'elohim'. The pagan deities Chemosh and Baal are called 'elohim'. Human judges of Israel are called 'elohim'. The spirit of the dead prophet Samuel is called 'elohim'. There are plural persons within the heavenly court, and there are plural judges of Israel, but there is only one Moses, one Chemosh, one Baal, and one Samuel.
We (meaning myself) are not new to this conceptUsing a plural form of a word even when referring to a singular object is unusual to us, but again, it's the culture gap between 21st-century Americans thinking in literalist, modernist terms instead of thinking in the perspective of an ancient Israelites.
LOL. How many times does one have to make it clear that no one is thinking angels helped create anything? That's not what I think. If that's what I thought, then perhaps your point would be valid. But one more time...I don't feel the angels helped create anything, nor do I feel man was made out of any other image other than God. I've already tried explaining that if the angels were created in the image of God, then that is why God said let us make man in our image.
Since some of you are just not getting where I'm coming from, I have since done some Googling. I found the following link, among many. But this one is kind of interesting. Give it a read. It's not very long. But it makes some good points.
Gen 1:26 And ELOHIM said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So ELOHIM created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Either Elohim is God only here, or it's God and the angels as you believe and verse 27 is clear that whatever ELOHIM is, that man was created by ELOHIM. Can you really suggest ELOHIM in verse 26 is God and the angels but in verse 27 its just God and no angels? I'm looking for consistency.
The URL is of no help because Jews don't accept Jesus as God, nor that he is part of the Trinity which is 3 as one God.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
We also references in the OT to the plurality of God.
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
If there's a plurality within God, why would we assume the inclusion of the angles. Especially since they are not mentioned?
I agree with you about 21st century Christians not having a 1st century Jewish mindset, I think you're correct. However, why would we assume that the understanding of the 1st century Jew was correct in regard to the phrase God is one? They didn't correctly understand the promises made to Abraham and who the promised seed was. They also didn't recognize their Messiah when He came to them. They didn't understand that righteousness was of faith and not of the Law. They missed a bunch of critical issues in the Scriptures. I think Jesus gives us some clear information on the statement God is one. In John 17 He prays that His followers would be one as He and the Father are one. Clearly the context there is unity, Don't you think that we should import that idea into the statement God is one? Surely Jesus wasn't praying that all believers would somehow come together and form a single being. In Genesis we clearly have two beings referred to as Jehovah.
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
The point is, within the time and culture prior to the alleged revelation of the 'trinity', the use of the plural 'elohim' didn't cause them to wonder 'why is God referred to in the plural'.Originally Posted by ewq1938
I trust the Jews to understand how their own language works more than I would trust a native-English speaker. None of the New Testament writers appeal to the use of 'us' or 'we' in Genesis 1.26 (or Genesis 3 or 11, or Isaiah 6) to suggest that God is 'plural persons'. None of them appeal to the fact that 'elohim' is the plural form of the word. If these were such strong points in favor of the 'plurality' of God, we have a reasonable expectation that they, being Jews, would have at least hinted at that, sometime or another. But they don't. It's only much later in history that we find such explanations, when non-native speakers of Hebrew start telling native speakers of Hebrew how their own language works.
Is Moses comprised of plural persons? Was the pagan deity Chemosh supposed to be plural persons? Or Baal? Is Jesus (not 'God', but Jesus himself) plural persons? Each of these individuals has the term 'elohim' applied to them, without it having ever suggested that they were plural persons, but suddenly once the term is applied to Yahweh, it somehow now carries the implication of 'plural persons' in it.The word Elohim is a plural word with a singular meaning. Fast forward to the NT and the revealing of the Trinity, we still see God being composed of more than one yet still being a singular God.
I would point to any Scripture that refers to God speaking to the heavenly court, with particularly notable examples including the end of Genesis 3, where 'us' includes the cherubim, and Isaiah 6, where 'us' includes the seraphim. This are very clear examples, I believe.Do you have any OT examples of this type of language being used where its more obvious only God was doing something while using "us" but not meaning "them"?
There's two problems here.The other issue with this theory is that the scripture do credit Elohim specically as having created man, more than one time in scripture so if Elohim does mean God and the Angels, then the Angels did participate in creating man after their own images.
(1) I didn't say that 'elohim' in Genesis 1.26 included the angels. 'Elohim' in that verse refers strictly to God, while the 'us' refers to God and his heavenly court. If you read a statement like, 'markedward said "let us read this book together"', you would recognize that the 'us' includes 'markedward', but not that 'markedward' includes all of the 'us'.
(2) I specifically said that 'let us' does not automatically mean that all of the 'us' is partaking in the act itself, but that they are watching the speaker doing it. They are being invited to witness the creation of man. This is a common use of 'let us' in any language. Unlike you, however, I do not believe God has a body, so I do not believe that 'in his image' is referring to the human body. Rather, I see it as God creating humans as spiritual creatures, which angels certainly are.
The issue is how ancient Hebrew functions. Within ancient Hebrew, as can be found many times throughout Scripture, singular objects could be referred to with the plural form of the noun without any implication of a plurality within that object. It is entirely relevant to study other examples of this (i.e. the use of 'youths' to refer to David as a singular 'youth'), since it provides a proper understanding of how ancient Hebrew functions.Prefer to focus on the word Elohim since it's the one that's key.
Exodus 7.1: Moses is 'made an elohim unto Pharaoh'.Specific examples should be named not only mentioned. I do not know where all these are located.
Judges 11.24: Chemosh is 'your elohim'.
1 Kings 11.33: Chemosh is 'the elohim of Moab'
Judges 8.33: Baal-berith is 'their elohim'
2 Kings 1.2: Baal-zebub is 'the elohim of Ekron'
1 Samuel 28.15: Samuel's spirit is 'an elohim'
'Elohim' can be used as both a singular and a plural object, but whether it is singular or plural depends on the form of the verb attached to that object. Moses is referred to with a singular-form verb even though he is called 'elohim'. The same goes for Chemosh, Baal, and Samuel's spirit.
'Elohim' does not inherently carry the idea of 'plural persons' in its regular usage, so it cannot rightly be claimed that when 'elohim' is applied to Yahweh that it suddenly changes its meaning to 'Yahweh is plural persons'.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Here's how I basically understand this verse, right or wrong.
And God said UNTO THE HEAVENLY HOST, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
If this is meaning the heavenly host, which I believe it means, then clearly, verse 27 without a doubt proves man was created in God's image, and God's image alone. Seriously, if we're all going to be one big family someday, we, God, and the angels, why would some of that family not be in the image of God, meaning the angels? Some of you are simply not thinking deep enough IMO.
And as far as that URL..I figured the fact that it was Jews that wrote that, that it likely wouldn't go off too well. But the bigger point I was trying to show, is that even great scholarly trinitarians no longer believe Genesis 1:26 to be about the trinity. But did they abandon the concept of the trinity because of that? It doesn't seem so. So you can't use that as a valid argument, that only non trinitarians don't see the trinity in Genesis 1:26, because that's simply not true.
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