Repentance

[Eyelog]

I also ask you, Brit, to explain this comment you made:

I am sure some will take this to mean that you can just vegetate ... This is not what i am implying though.

Thanks!

[Eyelog]

Hello Brits and Merry Christmas,

You asked a good question when you asked if we can “add” anything to what Jesus accomplished on the cross. The answer is absolutely not. But having said that, one must then ask, what is it that Jesus accomplished on the cross? My answer to this question is from Matthew 1:21:

And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.

So as I see it, in the atonement, Jesus saves his people from their sins. But I think we all would agree that Jesus saves His people through His sacrifice on the cross, but to me the important question is exactly who are these “people” Jesus saved? As I see it, there are a few different ways we could answer this. Now I don’t know if I will cover all the possibilities, but here are what I think are the two main possible answers.

1) Jesus saves certain, preselect individuals who were individually hand-picked before time began.

2) Jesus saves a body of believers in a corporate sense (no selection of individuals before time began).

The catch is that in neither case can an individual person add to what Jesus accomplished on the cross! If Jesus died for a select set of hand-picked individuals who had no part in their own selection, then these select individuals can add absolutely nothing to what He did. And if Jesus died for a corporately select group, then no individual can add to what He has done.

Now if the first option is true, then all is predetermined and we might as well sit back, eat some popcorn, and watch the show. But if the second option is true, then we might want to determine just what (if anything) we must do to become a part of this corporate group (let’s call it the ‘church’ for a lack of a better term) which He has chosen to save.

Now let’s say that to join this elect group, one must turn from serving self and sin and begin serving the Living God, and this ‘turning’ must be maintained (continued) in order to continue membership in that elect group. So, by doing this, does any individual really “add” to what Jesus did to His saving of the elect group? The answer is, “No.”

Let me know if this makes sense, or if I need to supply an analogy to help explain it.

Bandit

Hi, Bandit. Ironically, I think election is both, corporate and individual. But before I launch into that, you said you might have an analogy. Would you be willing to share that with me?

=============
Edited point: Actually, Jesus' parable of the wedding feast is a great analogy, concerning the guy not wearing the wedding clothes, eh? Mt 22.

I'm so impatient. I must paste some Scripture.

In support of your position:

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Matthew 20:16

• New King James Version
  So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Matthew 22:13-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
¹³ Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast himinto outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
¹⁴ “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Here's some other stuff:

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Revelation 19:7-9
New International Version (NIV)

7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Rev 17 and 19 are to be read with MT 22, of course. But we can see the distinction being made by Jesus between being called and chosen. Most everyone (but apparently not all, based on Romans 9) is called, of course, just as Jesus paid the sin penalty for all. But you are not chosen unless you respond to the call appropriately. You are revealed as chosen when you are found wearing the wedding clothes, which are the righteous acts of the Saints. ["they will know we are Christians by our love" based on John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love oneanother.” Of course, there is a lot of other types of good fruit]

I think Scripture is clear, however, that God has foreknowledge of us and what we are going to do. Romans 8. Moreover, He sovereignly hardens and has mercy. Romans 9.

The metaphysical problem of the ages is how to reconcile God's foreknowledge and predestination of Romans 8 & 9 with his holding us accountable and putting so much in our hands. If all we read were Romans 9, we'd have the impression God does not want us to know the answer:

¹⁴ What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! ¹⁵ For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
¹⁶ It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. ¹⁷ For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” ¹⁸Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

¹⁹ One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” ²⁰ But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”²¹ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

But He does give us the answer.

Nevertheless, constantly, even in this thread, we have folks on either side of this question of whether it is all God, all man or both. Clearly, it is both. But what is God seeking to accomplish through all of this?

God's teleology or design for mankind is the whole issue in the Bible, from beginning to end. But so often our theology gets off on some unbalanced emphasis. This is catastrophic when it comes to practical sanctification and treasure in heaven and what God wants us to be busy doing at this moment, until He comes.

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hi again Eyelog

My lack of the command of the English grammar seems to be the problem.

The portion you highlighted reads (or should be understood to read- I added a few words to clarify.. red colour in the following); self effort mostly results in stress and once we "give up" (normally when we are exhausted from trying ourselves), it becomes "self effort" that is replaced by "His work in us" and this is the "effortless" I am describing.

But are you saying we can use effort with the Holy Spirit, as I bolded in your comment above? If so, please explain that.

Eyelog, I can sincerely not see how you could get that from the post. It says exactly the opposite. Is it possible that you may have missed a word in the paragraph? I can only assume that you may have missed the word I highlight in the following extract.

"where I state "effortless" allow me to replace that with any words that does not imply "self effort" (as meaning effort without the Holy Spirit.)"

We must not try to manipulate God into doing something for us

Although I did not say this, it will be futile to try it in any way.

There are some teachers that have material out (short podcast video's) that are far more eloquent than me. I f you wish, I can give you some links. I do not suggest you follow any such teaching but rather that such gifted speakers may assist you to grasp what i am saying. It is difficult to fully explain one self in a short writ, so, I can recommend getting a better picture by means of these resources. (they are short and fun to watch). Let me know.

Regards

Brits

[Eyelog]

Hi again Eyelog

My lack of the command of the English grammar seems to be the problem.

The portion you highlighted reads (or should be understood to read- I added a few words to clarify.. red colour in the following); self effort mostly results in stress and once we "give up" (normally when we are exhausted from trying ourselves), it becomes "self effort" that is replaced by "His work in us" and this is the "effortless" I am describing.




Eyelog, I can sincerely not see how you could get that from the post. It says exactly the opposite. Is it possible that you may have missed a word in the paragraph? I can only assume that you may have missed the word I highlight in the following extract.

"where I state "effortless" allow me to replace that with any words that does not imply "self effort" (as meaning effort without the Holy Spirit.)"



Although I did not say this, it will be futile to try it in any way.

There are some teachers that have material out (short podcast video's) that are far more eloquent than me. I f you wish, I can give you some links. I do not suggest you follow any such teaching but rather that such gifted speakers may assist you to grasp what i am saying. It is difficult to fully explain one self in a short writ, so, I can recommend getting a better picture by means of these resources. (they are short and fun to watch). Let me know.

Regards

Brits

Yes, please give me your links, either here or in a pm. Thanks.

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hi Eyelog

Some of the titles may appear strange but I think it's just to entice you to listen/watch

Once more, I do not suggest you follow any particular teaching, your convictions is a matter between you and the Holy Spirit.

So, here we go:

Beyond Comparison (Andre Rabe): here

Confession ( John Crowder ); here
Fun With Repentance ( J. Crowder) ; here

How Believers Fall From Grace (Joseph Prince) ; here

I think that you will find the "effort or self effort" significance well explained although it is not the main individual themes.

there are many more but these should be ok for a start.

Hope you enjoy them as I do.

Regards

Brits

[mailmandan]

I take it, then, you view repentance as requiring both: (1) confess sin to God and (2) strive to turn from it outwardly.

Has anyone in this thread or a recent thread made a list of the elements of full and complete repentance? I think we should have such a thing, if we hope to discuss it and practice it.

Some want to say repentance itself is just the change of mind. Others want to say you must also successfully turn from the sin outwardly. Some would say repentance is the former, and the latter should have a different term to describe it. There are so many different formulations of it by folks that it is very difficult for the disciple to catch what the point of it all might be.

How would you list the elements, steps, aspects or conditions of repentance?

Hello Eyelog,

I would view confessing our sin to God and striving to turn from it outwardly as the fruit of repentance "bear fruit in keeping with repentance" (Matthew 3:8). As I mentioned before, true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." Those who have truly repented do not go on to live sinless perfect lives yet they do not continue to practice sin either. I certainly would not simply define repentance as "turn from all your sins" and say if you don't stop sinning completely then you didn't repent.

As I mentioned before, the Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a change of mind and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance is a "change of mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation.

In Jonah 3:4, we see that Jonah told the people of Ninevah that the city of Ninevah would be overthrown in 40 days if they do not repent of their wickedness (Jonah 1:2). The people of Ninevah repented "changed their minds" at the preaching of Jonah, believed God, and "turned from their evil ways" - "fruit of repentance" (Jonah 3:5,10; Matthew 3:8). This does not mean that they became sinless and perfect. For the people of Ninevah, the object of their repentance was changing their mind about continuing in their wicked ways. Unfortunately, the city of Ninevah reverted within one generation to its old pagan ways (Nahum 3:7,8).

In Jonah 3:10 we read, And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (KJV) Now, if "repent" simply means to "turn from your sins," we have a problem. We have God turning from sin, and that is certainly inconsistent with Bible teaching. God is sinless and has no sin to turn from. But if "repentance" means a change of mind, then it is consistent. Again in Exodus 32:14 the Bible says, "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." (KJV)

In Luke 17:3,4 we read, Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." In context, repentance here is in regards to a brother sinning against another brother, not a change of mind that results in trusting in Christ for salvation. So as we can see, repentance is a change of mind and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. We need to be careful and not confuse the fruit of repentance (change of actions) with the essence of repentance (change of mind) and not define repentance as "turn from all your sins" as if becoming sinless is a requirement for salvation. Faith in Christ is the requirement for salvation and those who are born again do not continue to practice sin, yet they do not become sinless either.

[Bandit]

Hi Bandid, thanks for the wishes ! May I extend my best wishes to you and your family as well.

Your reply is appreciated. The offer of a further analogy is welcome (unlike some others, I actually enjoy them). I have some comments and questions though. ( 1st of all, I value your convictions and do not wish to change them, only to understand them)

Hello,

I am glad you are enjoying this discussion. Yes, some discussions are more beneficial than others.

May I start with:

• What did Jesus accomplish ?
  
  • Is this (Matthew 1:21) the full accomplishment or could we add (from scripture), other equally profound insights ? - This will certainly enrich the discussion.

The cross (and resurrection) work certainly is : "...for He will save His people ...."

• His people: I assume this is the "elected group" you refer to in the (2) option ? - Will you explain this group a bit please.? ( I see it as the whole human race.) - Also agree that option 1 appears "just wrong"

Well, I actually don't see the 'elect group' as the whole human race. I see the 'elect group' as the body of Christ: His body. But I also see that admittance to this group is offered to any and all from the human race who will choose to serve the Living God. It is kind of like a person on an island who claims to be a prophet, and who says the volcano is going to errupt and destroy the island. Now this person has a boat, a big boat, and he says that on a certain day he will set sail, and will save all those who come aboard. So this person has stated that he will save a category of persons - all those who are aboard when he sets sail. The offer, made to all on the island, becomes effectual only to those who come aboard. So there is no election of specific individuals to be saved, only a group (those who will come aboard) has been chosen for salvation.

I am also interested to hear more about: "from their sins"

• from their sins: I was just wondering if this means to save from

(1) the power of the sin itself (like..."slave to sin" or perhaps like "breaking the addiction"),
(2) the "fallen nature of man" that loves to sin (getting a new nature or more correctly, restoring the nature He designed you with before time began) or
(3) from the results that sin brings ( death to the flesh, separation from God etc..) ?
(4) all or a combination of the above and... maybe more ?

As per my last analogy, I think the main meaning of to be "saved from their sins" is deliverance from the pending disaster. According to this man, the island is going to blow her top, and all on the island will die. If you believe this man and you want to live, get aboard. Now, leaving the analogy, there is great benefit in the 'here and now' to having the Holy Spirit reside in the believer: we do have help in times of need, and as we take advantage of that help, we will better resist sin on a daily basis. But as long as we are in these physical bodies, temptation is ever-present. That is why James says to resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

In your para starting with: "Now let’s say that..." ... you imply a "works" in order to remain a member of this group. I find it confusing and to accept that group membership appears to distance the individual from a personal savior. Perhaps your analogy will clear that up.

...

Per my analogy, one must come aboard and stay aboard the ship. The election of a people to be saved is very real, but just not individually specific. The salvation becomes individual and specific to each person as they board the ship. I hope this helps.

Bandit

[Bandit]

I take it, then, you view repentance as requiring both: (1) confess sin to God and (2) strive to turn from it outwardly.

Has anyone in this thread or a recent thread made a list of the elements of full and complete repentance? I think we should have such a thing, if we hope to discuss it and practice it.

Some want to say repentance itself is just the change of mind. Others want to say you must also successfully turn from the sin outwardly. Some would say repentance is the former, and the latter should have a different term to describe it. There are so many different formulations of it by folks that it is very difficult for the disciple to catch what the point of it all might be.

How would you list the elements, steps, aspects or conditions of repentance?

Concerning this post, I would suggest that an overall understanding of the Sermon on the Mount would be very beneficial. There are two paths: a broad path which leads to destruction, and a constrained (or narrow) path which leads to eternal life. Which path one is on is determined by how one lives. (If you disagree here, then read the Sermon.) So, is it possible to obtain eternal life while walking the broad path? If not, then I would suggest that 'repentance' involves changing the path one is on.

[Bandit]

Hi, Bandit. Ironically, I think election is both, corporate and individual. But before I launch into that, you said you might have an analogy. Would you be willing to share that with me?

Hello Eyelog,

I just put a post out with an island/volcano/ship analogy. It probably is not the best in the world, but I think it describes the essence of corporate election. (And I do not believe in individual election to salvation.) I think God calls a great many, but a relative few choose to answer appropriately. So unless we want to make God responsible for those who respond inappropriately, I think the best recourse is to see election to salvation as corporate in nature. This mode of election allows room for individual choice while also preserving God's right to choose. Notice how the island/volcano/ship analogy preserves the right of the man to choose who to save (in a corporate sense) while preserving the moral volition of those individuals who choose to be saved.

I think Scripture is clear, however, that God has foreknowledge of us and what we are going to do. Romans 8. Moreover, He sovereignly hardens and has mercy. Romans 9.

Well, I kind of think you are used to reading foreknowledge of individuals here, and applying that foreknowledge to salvation. But what if the foreknowledge to salvation is in a corporate sense? I think Romans 8 and 9 have been greatly misrepresented by calvinists (and probably by many Arminians as well). When one gets to Romans 11, something should tell a person that individual election isn't the way to think about election. At that point, a person should try to determine how best to understand Romans 8 & 9 so that it flows better with the content of Romans 11 (and also Romans 2).

The metaphysical problem of the ages is how to reconcile God's foreknowledge and predestination of Romans 8 & 9 with his holding us accountable and putting so much in our hands. If all we read were Romans 9, we'd have the impression God does not want us to know the answer:
...

Again, I think this is only a metaphysical problem if one reads individual election to salvation from Romans 8 &9. If one has a corporate view of election, then I don't think there are as many problems (in my opinion).

[Brits Van Wyk]

Thank Bandid.
The analogy is good and clever. I will need some time to think about it for myself but I anticipate it will digest very well.

[Brits Van Wyk]

I was wondering if Eyelog had an opportunity to watch any of the videos (links) I posted.

The following extract from Andre is also of interest ( thought to bring this in as a fresh piece as there seems to be only a very few who participate at this stage)

from a post by Andre Rabe:
Questions and answers regarding repentance (extract from a booklet I'm working on)

For by the death He died, He died to sin [ending His relation to it] once for all; and the life that He lives, He is living to God [in unbroken fellowship with Him]. Even so consider yourselves also dead to sin and your relation to it broken, but alive to God [living in unbroken fellowship with Him] in Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:10, 11 AMP)

The Christian life has often been portrayed as a continual attempt to die to sin. But notice that the death He died, He died ONCE and for ALL, so that the life He lives would be occupied with the living God, not obsessed with trying-not-to-sin.

When it says that you should 'consider yourselves also dead to sin' it uses an accounting term: to reckon yourself dead, is to make a sum to which there is only one logical conclusion. When He died, that old me that had a relationship with sin, died with Him.

In another place Paul expresses the magnitude of this conclusion as follows: if one died for all, then all have died. You could not and cannot die to sin through your own efforts and discipline. Neither is it your regret or the sincerity of your confession that will accomplish this separation from sin. It is not the depth of your sorrow, but the clarity of your insight that will set you free from destructive habits and thoughts.
Repentance has often also been portrayed as the regret we feel when realising how wrong we were. Judas realised how wrong he was, yet his regret alone did not prevent him from committing another sin - he hanged himself. (Matt 27:3) Obviously, when one is presented with the truth about God and about oneself, one might regret the waste and the hurt caused through ignorance. The difficulty that the lost son faced in the pigs den also caused him to regret his bad decisions, but regret alone has no power to transform one's life. And surely, the event that caused a more permanent change in the son's (Luke 15) mind and life, was meeting with his father and realising the true character and attitude of his Father. It was the party, not the pigs den that revealed the father's heart, and had a greater effect on him 'repenting' or changing his mind about the father ... and about himself.

[ClayInHisHands]

Repentance has often also been portrayed as the regret we feel when realising how wrong we were.

How with the above and the other things you said do you relate Godly sorrow produces repentance and worldy sorrow produces death? I am aware that how sorry we feel doesn't matter to a degree,(because it's a different kind of sadness, yet it's still an emotional feeling in some respects)...would you agree?

Judas realised how wrong he was, yet his regret alone did not prevent him from committing another sin - he hanged himself.

I always interpreted that Judas was overwhelmed with guilt(worldly sorrow). His suicide is debatable since scripture doesn't explicitly address it...unless you have scripture I am unaware of.

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hi ClayInHisHands

I cannot answer for the writer but I am quite willing to give you my personal input.

How with the above and the other things you said do you relate Godly sorrow produces repentance and worldy sorrow produces death? I am aware that how sorry we feel doesn't matter to a degree,(because it's a different kind of sadness, yet it's still an emotional feeling in some respects)...would you agree?

1st allow me to confirm that I gather from the learned that: Repentance = Change your mind (about the issue at hand)


In relationship between man and God, man is confronted by either;
(a) the wrath of God or
(b) the love of God
both these could lead to a change of mind (repentance).

However, if the change of mind is based on fear, the person is most likely going to try and correct his/her ways in order to appease the god. This is self effort based on works and results in death (they will fail as it is impossible to keep the law(demands for justification))

On the other hand, if the change of mind is done with the the conviction of the acceptance of God ( because of the cross), the person will most likely also change his/her actions as a result of (or as a response to) the acceptance (unconditional love)
Now this "repentance" leads to life.

Rom 2: 4 Or do you have contempt for the wealth of his kindness, forbearance, and patience, and yet do not know that God’s kindness [God's love, not God's wrath] leads you to repentance?

In my understanding, I gather that Gods laws are written on the tables of your/our hearts and we have no excuse with regards to that. This by itself could lead to a change of mind resulting from a conviction and/or fear. I am also sure that it will be accompanied by sorrow ( either genuine or mostly by the emotional self pity of being caught ) At this stage, the sorrow has no lasting effect irrespective of the mind change. vis leading to death

Do I thus agree? why yes, the emotional experience may even be the similar ... just borne from a different "activator" and leading to different outcomes.

I always interpreted that Judas was overwhelmed with guilt(worldly sorrow). His suicide is debatable since scripture doesn't explicitly address it...unless you have scripture I am unaware of.

Matt 27:3 Now when Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus had been condemned, he regretted what he had done and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders,
27:4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood!” But they said, “What is that to us? You take care of it yourself!” 27:5 So Judas threw the silver coins into the temple and left. Then he went out and hanged himself.
27:6 The chief priests took the silver and said, “It is not lawful to put this into the temple treasury, since it is blood money.”
27:7 After consulting together they bought the Potter’s Field with it, as a burial place for foreigners.
27:8 For this reason that field has been called the “Field of Blood” to this day.
27:9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty silver coins, the price of the one whose price had been set by the people of Israel,
27:10 and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

I am not sure what you mean by: "His suicide is debatable" but if I misunderstood, let me know please and we can chat about it.

Warm regards

[Eyelog]

Hello Eyelog,

I would view confessing our sin to God and striving to turn from it outwardly as the fruit of repentance "bear fruit in keeping with repentance" (Matthew 3:8). As I mentioned before, true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." Those who have truly repented do not go on to live sinless perfect lives yet they do not continue to practice sin either. I certainly would not simply define repentance as "turn from all your sins" and say if you don't stop sinning completely then you didn't repent.

As I mentioned before, the Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a change of mind and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance is a "change of mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation.

In Jonah 3:4, we see that Jonah told the people of Ninevah that the city of Ninevah would be overthrown in 40 days if they do not repent of their wickedness (Jonah 1:2). The people of Ninevah repented "changed their minds" at the preaching of Jonah, believed God, and "turned from their evil ways" - "fruit of repentance" (Jonah 3:5,10; Matthew 3:8). This does not mean that they became sinless and perfect. For the people of Ninevah, the object of their repentance was changing their mind about continuing in their wicked ways. Unfortunately, the city of Ninevah reverted within one generation to its old pagan ways (Nahum 3:7,8).

In Jonah 3:10 we read, And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (KJV) Now, if "repent" simply means to "turn from your sins," we have a problem. We have God turning from sin, and that is certainly inconsistent with Bible teaching. God is sinless and has no sin to turn from. But if "repentance" means a change of mind, then it is consistent. Again in Exodus 32:14 the Bible says, "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." (KJV)

In Luke 17:3,4 we read, Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." In context, repentance here is in regards to a brother sinning against another brother, not a change of mind that results in trusting in Christ for salvation. So as we can see, repentance is a change of mind and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. We need to be careful and not confuse the fruit of repentance (change of actions) with the essence of repentance (change of mind) and not define repentance as "turn from all your sins" as if becoming sinless is a requirement for salvation. Faith in Christ is the requirement for salvation and those who are born again do not continue to practice sin, yet they do not become sinless either.

This is pretty good stuff. Thanks for laying it out like that.

I was wondering further, metanoia is rooted in nous (mind). But what do you make of the role of the heart (kardia and leb)?

Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart (kardia) may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.”

How about:

2 Chron 32:26 [ Hebrew Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: LXX | Side-by-side ]
However, Hezekiah humbled the pride of his heart (Leb), both he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD did not come on them in the days of Hezekiah.

Joel 2:12
New King James Version
[ A Call to Repentance ] “ Now, therefore,” says the LORD, “ Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.”

Lord bless you, brother.

[Eyelog]

Hello Eyelog,

I just put a post out with an island/volcano/ship analogy. It probably is not the best in the world, but I think it describes the essence of corporate election. (And I do not believe in individual election to salvation.) I think God calls a great many, but a relative few choose to answer appropriately. So unless we want to make God responsible for those who respond inappropriately, I think the best recourse is to see election to salvation as corporate in nature. This mode of election allows room for individual choice while also preserving God's right to choose. Notice how the island/volcano/ship analogy preserves the right of the man to choose who to save (in a corporate sense) while preserving the moral volition of those individuals who choose to be saved.





Well, I kind of think you are used to reading foreknowledge of individuals here, and applying that foreknowledge to salvation. But what if the foreknowledge to salvation is in a corporate sense? I think Romans 8 and 9 have been greatly misrepresented by calvinists (and probably by many Arminians as well). When one gets to Romans 11, something should tell a person that individual election isn't the way to think about election. At that point, a person should try to determine how best to understand Romans 8 & 9 so that it flows better with the content of Romans 11 (and also Romans 2).




Again, I think this is only a metaphysical problem if one reads individual election to salvation from Romans 8 &9. If one has a corporate view of election, then I don't think there are as many problems (in my opinion).

Greetings.

Below you say:

Per my analogy, one must come aboard and stay aboard the ship. The election of a people to be saved is very real, but just not individually specific. The salvation becomes individual and specific to each person as they board the ship.

I think the highlighted part here is where you and I are very nearly saying the same thing, especially where I say at #137:

But we can see the distinction being made by Jesus between being called and chosen. Most everyone (but apparently not all, based on Romans 9) is called, of course, just as Jesus paid the sin penalty for all. But you are not chosen unless you respond to the call appropriately. You are revealed as chosen when you are found wearing the wedding clothes [as in Mt 22], which are the righteous acts of the Saints [as in Revelation 19].

You agree?