Repentance

[Eyelog]

I was wondering if Eyelog had an opportunity to watch any of the videos (links) I posted.

The following extract from Andre is also of interest ( thought to bring this in as a fresh piece as there seems to be only a very few who participate at this stage)

from a post by Andre Rabe:
Questions and answers regarding repentance (extract from a booklet I'm working on)

For by the death He died, He died to sin [ending His relation to it] once for all; and the life that He lives, He is living to God [in unbroken fellowship with Him]. Even so consider yourselves also dead to sin and your relation to it broken, but alive to God [living in unbroken fellowship with Him] in Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:10, 11 AMP)

The Christian life has often been portrayed as a continual attempt to die to sin. But notice that the death He died, He died ONCE and for ALL, so that the life He lives would be occupied with the living God, not obsessed with trying-not-to-sin.

When it says that you should 'consider yourselves also dead to sin' it uses an accounting term: to reckon yourself dead, is to make a sum to which there is only one logical conclusion. When He died, that old me that had a relationship with sin, died with Him.

In another place Paul expresses the magnitude of this conclusion as follows: if one died for all, then all have died. You could not and cannot die to sin through your own efforts and discipline. Neither is it your regret or the sincerity of your confession that will accomplish this separation from sin. It is not the depth of your sorrow, but the clarity of your insight that will set you free from destructive habits and thoughts.
Repentance has often also been portrayed as the regret we feel when realising how wrong we were. Judas realised how wrong he was, yet his regret alone did not prevent him from committing another sin - he hanged himself. (Matt 27:3) Obviously, when one is presented with the truth about God and about oneself, one might regret the waste and the hurt caused through ignorance. The difficulty that the lost son faced in the pigs den also caused him to regret his bad decisions, but regret alone has no power to transform one's life. And surely, the event that caused a more permanent change in the son's (Luke 15) mind and life, was meeting with his father and realising the true character and attitude of his Father. It was the party, not the pigs den that revealed the father's heart, and had a greater effect on him 'repenting' or changing his mind about the father ... and about himself.

Hi, Brit. I listened to all of the links you listed, as well as a couple others on UTube.

interesting bunch.

John Crowder is exactly what he claims to be, whacked -- and not my cup of tea, to say the least.

Joseph Prince is contradictory: "there is no hope in your flesh, and God says there is none. Expecting good in yourself is why we get discouraged. there is no good in your flesh." Yet he preaches the flesh is dead. And he identifies the flesh with our human efforts to be good. Is the flesh dead or not? I find all of this to be double-speak, laced with "don't strive" and "it's effortless" which is what Crowder, at his best, says as well.

Andre Rabe says, God doesn’t remember our past sin so it does not exist, but his mind is on us all the time. He loves us from before the foundation of the earth. When we were saved, we are restored to the goodness he originally created mankind with. Christ restored us to God’s orginal idea of who he wanted us to be. I don't recall that in Scripture. Can you quote scripture in support of these points, which you yourself have made as well?

[Eyelog]

I was wondering if Eyelog had an opportunity to watch any of the videos (links) I posted.

The following extract from Andre is also of interest ( thought to bring this in as a fresh piece as there seems to be only a very few who participate at this stage)

from a post by Andre Rabe:
Questions and answers regarding repentance (extract from a booklet I'm working on)

For by the death He died, He died to sin [ending His relation to it] once for all; and the life that He lives, He is living to God [in unbroken fellowship with Him]. Even so consider yourselves also dead to sin and your relation to it broken, but alive to God [living in unbroken fellowship with Him] in Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:10, 11 AMP)

The Christian life has often been portrayed as a continual attempt to die to sin. But notice that the death He died, He died ONCE and for ALL, so that the life He lives would be occupied with the living God, not obsessed with trying-not-to-sin.

When it says that you should 'consider yourselves also dead to sin' it uses an accounting term: to reckon yourself dead, is to make a sum to which there is only one logical conclusion. When He died, that old me that had a relationship with sin, died with Him.

In another place Paul expresses the magnitude of this conclusion as follows: if one died for all, then all have died. You could not and cannot die to sin through your own efforts and discipline. Neither is it your regret or the sincerity of your confession that will accomplish this separation from sin. It is not the depth of your sorrow, but the clarity of your insight that will set you free from destructive habits and thoughts.
Repentance has often also been portrayed as the regret we feel when realising how wrong we were. Judas realised how wrong he was, yet his regret alone did not prevent him from committing another sin - he hanged himself. (Matt 27:3) Obviously, when one is presented with the truth about God and about oneself, one might regret the waste and the hurt caused through ignorance. The difficulty that the lost son faced in the pigs den also caused him to regret his bad decisions, but regret alone has no power to transform one's life. And surely, the event that caused a more permanent change in the son's (Luke 15) mind and life, was meeting with his father and realising the true character and attitude of his Father. It was the party, not the pigs den that revealed the father's heart, and had a greater effect on him 'repenting' or changing his mind about the father ... and about himself.

I don't discount the importance of mind renewal as to our identity in Christ and what it means. But that is only part of the story for how we are to obey the Lord.

[Eyelog]

However, if the change of mind is based on fear, the person is most likely going to try and correct his/her ways in order to appease the god. This is self effort based on works and results in death (they will fail as it is impossible to keep the law(demands for justification))

On the other hand, if the change of mind is done with the the conviction of the acceptance of God ( because of the cross), the person will most likely also change his/her actions as a result of (or as a response to) the acceptance (unconditional love)

Brit, you are a very pleasant fellow and i enjoy conversing with you. So, please don't feel I am attacking you personally. It is the way these 'new mystics' say things, which is how you are saying things, which I find both confusing and inadequate to disciple people in living the righteous life. indeed, I think what you describe is just plain very unlikely. At best it is quite incomplete.

[Brits Van Wyk]

Brit, you are a very pleasant fellow and i enjoy conversing with you. So, please don't feel I am attacking you personally. It is the way these 'new mystics' say things, which is how you are saying things, which I find both confusing and inadequate to disciple people in living the righteous life. indeed, I think what you describe is just plain very unlikely. At best it is quite incomplete.

No offence taken and I still love you Eyelog.

I profess not to know anything but that God loves me, His Son is alive and the Holy Spirit has come. Any other thoughts I hold may be questioned, comment upon, corrected etc. I maintain a teachable spirit and submit to the confirmation of my thoughts by Him whom I know, is my Daddy. Having said that, I am not easily swayed by men's opinion and that is why I sometimes take time before I respond. I respect other opinions but, as for my own, I humbly offer it for consideration without feeling the need to convince. I really believe that only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth.

I am sorry if my posts do not assist : "find both confusing and inadequate to disciple people in living the righteous life" or that you find "what you describe is just plain very unlikely. At best it is quite incomplete"

Perhaps you will be gracious to allow/endure my inadequacies on this forum and try your best to offer wisdom where I lack.

Kind regards

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hi, Brit. I listened to all of the links you listed, as well as a couple others on UTube.

interesting bunch.

John Crowder is exactly what he claims to be, whacked -- and not my cup of tea, to say the least.

Joseph Prince is contradictory: "there is no hope in your flesh, and God says there is none. Expecting good in yourself is why we get discouraged. there is no good in your flesh." Yet he preaches the flesh is dead. And he identifies the flesh with our human efforts to be good. Is the flesh dead or not? I find all of this to be double-speak, laced with "don't strive" and "it's effortless" which is what Crowder, at his best, says as well.

Andre Rabe says, God doesn’t remember our past sin so it does not exist, but his mind is on us all the time. He loves us from before the foundation of the earth. When we were saved, we are restored to the goodness he originally created mankind with. Christ restored us to God’s orginal idea of who he wanted us to be. I don't recall that in Scripture. Can you quote scripture in support of these points, which you yourself have made as well?

Hi Eyelog

Appreciate your feedback as always.

John Crowder is indeed n interesting guy - highly educated (was the editor of NY mainstream paper) - Not always easy for me as i come from the Dutch Reformed background ( many years ago) and such "freedom of expression" is still a bit unfamiliar to me. I suppose King David dancing before the ark (half naked) must have been just as strange to the folk observing him ! At least Crowder keeps his clothes on. The guy "leaks" love and that is very attractive to me.

Joseph Prince is contradictory: "there is no hope in your flesh, and God says there is none. Expecting good in yourself is why we get discouraged. there is no good in your flesh." Yet he preaches the flesh is dead. And he identifies the flesh with our human efforts to be good. Is the flesh dead or not? I find all of this to be double-speak, laced with "don't strive" and "it's effortless" which is what Crowder, at his best, says as well

I cannot speak on behalf of JP but only offer you my impressions: It is clear to me that he is referring to born again Christians that still want to live as if they are governed by the pre-salvation (dead man) and it's enslavement to sin and as such, their compulsion to observe some form of law in order to achieve justification.

I must admit that "And he identifies the flesh with our human efforts to be good" does not ring a bell at all. In fact, it is just the opposite. I remember that you also, "accidently" {sorry about spelling} , quoted the opposite to what I said , in a previous post. Perhaps you concluded such, from what you think you heard. I can only ask that you perhaps listen again and see if your observation is in fact correct.

As far as Andre Rabe is concerned; I hold the same conviction. I would however request your indulgence as i will reply to the scriptural references on my next post.

Regards

[Brits Van Wyk]

I don't discount the importance of mind renewal as to our identity in Christ and what it means. But that is only part of the story for how we are to obey the Lord.

With reference to post #132 .. is there a hint of "pushing a fig" in your "But" ?? - ( really no pun intended ! )

Love
Brits

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hello again Eyelog.

with reference to:

Andre Rabe says, God doesn’t remember our past sin so it does not exist, but his mind is on us all the time. He loves us from before the foundation of the earth. When we were saved, we are restored to the goodness he originally created mankind with. Christ restored us to God’s orginal idea of who he wanted us to be. I don't recall that in Scripture. Can you quote scripture in support of these points, which you yourself have made as well?

God doesn’t remember our past sin so it does not exist:

Heb 8:12 because I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawlessnesses I will remember no more;'
Psa 103 :12 as far as the east is from the west...
Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.




Also see: Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Hebrews 8:7-13


The superior excellence of the priesthood of Christ, above that of Aaron, is shown from that covenant of grace, of which Christ was Mediator. The law not only made all subject to it, liable to be condemned for the guilt of sin, but also was unable to remove that guilt, and clear the conscience from the sense and terror of it. Whereas, by the blood of Christ, a full remission of sins was provided, so that God would remember them no more. God once wrote his laws to his people, now he will write his laws in them; he will give them understanding to know and to believe his laws; he will give them memories to retain them; he will give them hearts to love them, courage to profess them, and power to put them in practice. This is the foundation of the covenant; and when this is laid, duty will be done wisely, sincerely, readily, easily, resolutely, constantly, and with comfort. A plentiful outpouring of the Spirit of God will make the ministration of the gospel so effectual, that there shall be a mighty increase and spreading of Christian knowledge in persons of all sorts. Oh that this promise might be fulfilled in our days, that the hand of God may be with his ministers so that great numbers may believe, and be turned to the Lord! The pardon of sin will always be found to accompany the true knowledge of God. Notice the freeness of this pardon; its fulness; its fixedness. This pardoning mercy is connected with all other spiritual mercies: unpardoned sin hinders mercy, and pulls down judgments; but the pardon of sin prevents judgment, and opens a wide door to all spiritual blessings. Let us search whether we are taught by the Holy Spirit to know Christ, so as uprightly to love, fear, trust, and obey him. All worldly vanities, outward privileges, or mere notions of religion, will soon vanish away, and leave those who trust in them miserable for ever.

but his mind is on us all the time:
Forgive me but...I do not really even want to give scripture for this. I feel ashamed to have to question this.

He loves us from before the foundation of the earth.

Eph 1:4 even as He chose us out (selects, picks us out), within Him. before [the] casting down (a laying of the foundation; a conception) of [the] ordered system (world), [for] us to continuously be set-apart (holy) ones and flawless ones (ones without stain; blameless ones) in His sight (presence) [in love; or, putting this phrase at the beginning of vs. 5:]
Eph 1:5 In love marking us out beforehand (definitively appoint us beforehand; before setting our boundaries, defining us) into sonship (the position of a son), through Jesus Christ, into Himself, according to (down from) the good thought (delight) of His will (determined purpose),


Christ restored us to God’s orginal idea of who he wanted us to be. I don't recall that in Scripture.

Perhaps I can say that it should now be clear that you were in His mind before creation. Yes?

So, after "the beginning" ......

Adam (and Eve) was created by Them in Their own image. Yes? (original design and approved.)

When Jesus died, all died. When he was made alive, all were made alive. Yes? (not just in spirit but in the same way as Jesus was raised - physical body ) - pls read together with the next sentence.....
Jesus presents us to the Father as "once again", fully Holy and Justified, reconciled. yes? (or are you of the opinion that His work was not done 100% ? - Can we add anything to that work? ) - Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge ( of the fact that it is ) after the image of him that created him:

If He,that created me, is less than perfect, I too, will then be restored to "less than perfect" in His view.... He declared me so but...others may think differently about me, this I cannot help -
If one is not sure how he is seen by God, it will most certainly lead to self effort for those who seek justification. This revelation of how you are seen by God, should fill you with awe and appreciation, love and compassion, reverence and joy, and most certainly lead you to still waters where rest is.

If the above is correct, it follows that the restoration was back to the original design.



Much love
Brits

[Eyelog]

Christ restored us to God’s orginal idea of who he wanted us to be. I don't recall that in Scripture.

Perhaps I can say that it should now be clear that you were in His mind before creation. Yes?

So, after "the beginning" ......

Adam (and Eve) was created by Them in Their own image. Yes? (original design and approved.)

When Jesus died, all died. When he was made alive, all were made alive. Yes? (not just in spirit but in the same way as Jesus was raised - physical body ) - pls read together with the next sentence.....
Jesus presents us to the Father as "once again", fully Holy and Justified, reconciled. yes? (or are you of the opinion that His work was not done 100% ? - Can we add anything to that work? ) - Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge ( of the fact that it is ) after the image of him that created him:

If He,that created me, is less than perfect, I too, will then be restored to "less than perfect" in His view.... He declared me so but...others may think differently about me, this I cannot help -
If one is not sure how he is seen by God, it will most certainly lead to self effort for those who seek justification. This revelation of how you are seen by God, should fill you with awe and appreciation, love and compassion, reverence and joy, and most certainly lead you to still waters where rest is.

If the above is correct, it follows that the restoration was back to the original design.

Hi brother. I was falling asleep as i typed my response to you earlier. i didn't explain myself very well. I was mostly concerned about this idea that when we are born again we attain to becoming like Adam who is just like Christ and that's "God’s orginal idea of who he wanted us to be."

Anyhow, I can't find this quoted phrase in my translations. Perhaps you can give me the Biblical reference: "once again" fully Holy and Justified, reconciled.

Anyway, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding going on here, which frustrates a lot of people, and creates huge divisions of thought on our status in Christ.

1. Your view appears to be that we have attained to total reconciliation with God and He is our righteousness and that's all there is to it. I certainly agree that is all there is to getting saved. We do not earn our salvation via works, and so forth.

2. However, after that you seem to be saying we need not make any effort at all in order to obey the Lord. I find that to be totally contradicted throughout the entire New Testament. Even if we obey by and through the Spirit, it requires human effort to do so. To suggest otherwise, is (a) not an accurate description of what even you yourself do all day, and (b) to down play the amount of human effort and free will associated with offering the members of the body to righteousness and sowing to please the Spirit and the like.

3. Furthermore, you suggest that all we need do is contemplate our identity in Christ and all He's done for us, and this will cause us to obey, especially as we 'sink into' the fruit of the Spirit, or what we already are in Christ as the New Creation. Your links to these three guys has them re-defining confession, repentance and putting on in ways that are foreign to Scripture. They are abusing the text to achieve their 'new mysticism' insights, all the while claiming they are not antinomians, or anti-obedience to God. Ironically, they deny the greater part of the means by which we are to obey God while acting like those who use any amount of human effort to obey are trying to earn their salvation.

4. This confusion between seeking to obey in our own strength and getting saved by grace is really getting old. The born again are justified by the propitiation of their sins and the imputed righteousness of Christ. They need not earn salvation or justification before God. They are not going to hell, but to heaven. But once we are saved, we still live in this world and we are to be progressively sanctified into the image of Christ, who was not at all as primitive and naive as the first Adam. When we are born again, we do not attain to the innocent state of Adam, who did not know the difference between good and evil. We are one step better than Adam, and we are on a path to becoming like the 2nd Adam, Christ. Adam was made int he image of God but Jesus is the exact representation of the the Father. Big difference. Jesus was an overcomer who we are to imitate. Adam was a loser we are to be way beyond by now.

I say this without animosity or argumentative fervor. These are just my views, as i can back up with Scripture. I just don't see this view of surrender and let God do the obeying making any sense at all, and it is not how we obey 90+% of the time anyway. The vast majority is simple free will exerted because we agree with God and have good habits. Edited addition: And the fact that our obedience is mostly out of our Word of God-directed and Spirit-directed will power doesn't make it an attempt to earn salvation or justify ourselves or reform the old man via the old man or the flesh with the flesh etc.

Your brother,

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hi Eyelog my brother.

Please see comment in the body of your text below and the further reply below that.

Hi brother. I was falling asleep as i typed my response to you earlier. i didn't explain myself very well. I was mostly concerned about this idea that when we are born again we attain to becoming like Adam who is just like Christ and that's "God’s orginal idea of who he wanted us to be."

Anyhow, I can't find this quoted phrase in my translations. Perhaps you can give me the Biblical reference: "once again" fully Holy and Justified, reconciled.

Anyway, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding going on here, which frustrates a lot of people, and creates huge divisions of thought on our status in Christ.

1. Your view appears to be that we have attained to total reconciliation with God and He is our righteousness and that's all there is to it. I certainly agree that is all there is to getting saved. We do not earn our salvation via works, and so forth.

2. However, after that you seem to be saying we need not make any effort at all in order to obey the Lord.( Brits -No, no no... don't put such words into my mouth - it does require effort to stand aside as our own understanding, of how things work, is use to the carnal/wordly way of thinking and the spiritual dimention is strange to us - thus the renewal of the mind yet again. Especially when we are new in the revelation of Grace) I find that to be totally contradicted throughout the entire New Testament. Even if we obey by and through the Spirit, it requires human effort to do so.(Brits-leaning onto your own understanding will naturally bring one to this conclusion) To suggest otherwise, is (a) not an accurate description of what even you yourself do all day, (Brits - if you say so, you seem to know this for a fact) and (b) to down play the amount of human effort and free will associated with offering the members of the body to righteousness and sowing to please the Spirit and the like. (Brits - I really really do not think that there is anything I can do personally, that will please God... there is a scripture that puts it in a very bold way ... (ESV) Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..... -- In addition, Although it is a bit naughty (and I apologize if this offends) to say, it could be that some would want the Lords prayer to read: ...."Thy will be done [and i will help where it is not sufficient] on earth, as it is in heaven.. [but I can't help with the heaven bit]"... also...lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil [but... we don't actually believe You can do that without the help of our will power]...


3. Furthermore, you suggest that all we need do is contemplate (BRITS -no no no.. you are doing it again. I never said this. you need a revelation of this as a truth/fact. ) our identity in Christ and all He's done for us, and this will cause us to obey, especially as we 'sink into' the fruit of the Spirit,(Brits - my brother, please please do not do this to me, I may not be an English scholar with perfect grammar but I certainly do not deserve to be miss quoted like this) or what we already are in Christ as the New Creation. Your links to these three guys has them re-defining (Brits - the links are not redefining anything. The authors/speakers may be the one's you are referring to?) confession, repentance and putting on in ways that are foreign to Scripture. (Brits - sorry, I have no idea what this means -perhaps you can explain by means of quoting these scriptures and the contradictory statements of the speakers?) They are abusing the text to achieve their 'new mysticism' insights ( Brits - brother, you seem to have classified these people under one catagory. They are seperate ministries and as far as I know, only Crowders' ministry uses that term - I am just wondering if you know the meaning of mystic(s) ? you should look it up, it is very interesting !), all the while claiming they are not antinomians, or anti-obedience to God.(Brits - please refer to any good dictionary for the correct meaning of antinomia, I can suggest Wikipedia for a quick reference. It certainly is NOT anti-obedience to God !) Ironically, they deny the greater part of the means by which we are to obey God while acting like those who use any amount of human effort to obey are trying to earn their salvation.(Brits - by "the greater part of the means" you mean that there is a part that is greater than the other part/ Is this greater in importance, volume, effect, or something else ? )

4. This confusion between seeking to obey in our own strength and getting saved by grace is really getting old. The born again are justified by the propitiation of their sins and the imputed righteousness of Christ. They need not earn salvation or justification before God. They are not going to hell, but to heaven. But once we are saved, we still live in this world and we are to be progressively sanctified into the image of Christ, (Brits - I thought you just said.."they not earn salvation or sanctification before God.. so, am I to understand that they can appear befor God "partly sanctified / Perhaps you meant "changed" as sanctification loosly means "put aside for the sole purpose or use" - I addressed this in the post where I explained about the washing of the feet. So, I agree that we grow in Christ and we are cleansed by the Word daily. i do not agree that any fruit that is produced is from self effort, will power, own initiatives etc.) who was not at all as primitive and naive as the first Adam.(Brits - yet.. Jesus became fully human and was thus, during His earthly state, also "primitive?) When we are born again, we do not attain to the innocent state of Adam, who did not know the difference between good and evil. We are one step better than Adam, and we are on a path to becoming like the 2nd Adam, Christ.( Brits - are you saying then we will also be an exact representation of the Father? and not a as Adam that was in the image of God? - do you have any scriptural backup for such a statement. i will be very interested to see it.) Adam was made int he image of God but Jesus is the exact representation of the the Father. Big difference. Jesus was an overcomer who we are to imitate. Adam was a loser (Brits - ouch! you have guts to call that one! God said Adam was very good and - I hope you don't call yourself a loser when you slip up. God does not, so you can cut Adam some slack.)we are to be way beyond by now.(Brits - So, by having the knowledge of good and evil, we have become better than God wanted us to be ? He never wanted Adam to eat from that tree, so, if I understand you correctly, God had something better for Adam but He did not want Adam to have it? Now we have it thanks to primitive Adam hmmmm can't digest that one so nicely.)

(Brits -At this stage I should be jumping for joy. I may be wrong but you have just described something AWESOME ! - I will still have to think this thru and ask for His wisdom. So, please accept the following as an initial thought..... You said the following: "When we are born again, we do not attain to the innocent state of Adam, who did not know the difference between good and evil" . I recall Mat 18:3 ..(The words of Jesus) and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn (repent) and become like children (in the mind/thoughts and action), you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Wow... innocent like little children. Could it be that being "born again" implies a baby without knowledge of evil, innocent like a little child and thus, as you said, like the 1st Adam before the fall !!! If this is so, we really need to renew our mind and repent (change our mind) towards this "truth" - There are a host of things that need to be digested now.. think about the way a child acts, learns from his/her father and mother, have almost 100% dependency, thrives on the approval of the parents but do not labour and strive to find acceptance, finds comfort, protection and sustenance from the parents etc... wow and wow again... Thank You Eyelog !!! )

I say this without animosity or argumentative fervor. These are just my views, as i can back up with Scripture. I just don't see this view of surrender and let God do the obeying (Brits - not my words nor my conviction ) making any sense at all, and it is not how we obey 90+% of the time anyway. The vast majority is simple free will exerted because we agree with God and have good habits. Edited addition: And the fact that our obedience is mostly out of our Word of God-directed and Spirit-directed will power ( Brits - our will power does not have any power and does not impress man or God) doesn't make it an attempt to earn salvation or justify ourselves or reform the old man via the old man or the flesh with the flesh etc. (Brits - you lost me in the last few words )

Your brother,

Thank you Eyelog

I have tried to answer as you requested. I was not invited by you to evaluate your convictions and , to the best of my ability, I refrained from trying to "convince" you

If you wish me to respond to the comments above, i will try and do so.

I am sad to notice that you have read certain of my replies in a somewhat "perverted" way and I can only trust that it done in sincerity.

You have posed one question and asked if I can back up with scriptures the fact that we are "once again" fully Holy and Justified, reconciled - Perhaps I can ask you to comment with scriptural references if this is an incorrect reflection of His work on the cross. As always, your insight is valued.

I do respect the fact that you have difficulty to see the same way as I do and once again, I state that only the Holy Spirit can lift any vial (give revelation). As such I have stated that I remain willing to listen and to keep a teachable spirit.

Through earlier posts, I did ask some questions to better understand your convictions and I thank you for answering them.

It is thus with love and gratitude that I conclude my response to your questions and invite you to ask as many more as you may wish.

Love you - Brits

[Bandit]

Thank Bandid.
The analogy is good and clever. I will need some time to think about it for myself but I anticipate it will digest very well.

Well, this is kind of how I view the whole election/predestination process. God elects/foreknows in a corporate sense; we respond to the call in an individual sense. This view may take some time to digest fully, so do give it some time. And feel free to ask questions any time. All I can do is share what seems to work for me. (Though I still don't have every question answered.)

Bandit

[Bandit]

Greetings.

Below you say:

Per my analogy, one must come aboard and stay aboard the ship. The election of a people to be saved is very real, but just not individually specific. The salvation becomes individual and specific to each person as they board the ship.

I think the highlighted part here is where you and I are very nearly saying the same thing, especially where I say at #137:

"But we can see the distinction being made by Jesus between being called and chosen. Most everyone (but apparently not all, based on Romans 9) is called, of course, just as Jesus paid the sin penalty for all. But you are not chosen unless you respond to the call appropriately. You are revealed as chosen when you are found wearing the wedding clothes [as in Mt 22], which are the righteous acts of the Saints [as in Revelation 19]."

You agree?

His, Eyelog

I would say we agree as long as we agree that being "revealed as chosen", as you put it, does not mean that these individuals were chosen or predestined individually from the foundation of the world. Realize that in regards to salvation in general, I see election and predestination in a corporate sense. I do not believe God had a specific list of persons He had chosen to save from the beginning of time; we are added to the Book of Life as we repent.

NOTE: There are specific instances of election to specific tasks - like Jeremiah and Paul and even Judas, but these were not specifically election to salvation - or in Judas' case to damnation. For example, though God foreknew His election of Paul to the Apostleship, God did not make Paul respond as he did, and Paul was not predestined to salvation in an individual sense. Paul was called to join the elect body - the body of Christ - but he was told that to do so would require him to fill a particular office in that body. So Paul was not elect/predestined in an individual sense to salvation, but wrapped up in his acceptance of the call was the additional requirement to fulfill certain duties within the body. So for Paul, to repent meant that He had to accept the role God wanted him to fulfill. (But isn't this true of all of us to some extent?) This is quite a side discussion, but it is how I see things.

So you will have to answer the question over our level of agreement. At least I hope we can say we respect each other's postion even if it turns out we have some differences. I think any differences in our respective understandings is small when compared to our agreements.

Bandit

[Eyelog]

Hi Eyelog my brother.

Please see comment in the body of your text below and the further reply below that.




Thank you Eyelog

I have tried to answer as you requested. I was not invited by you to evaluate your convictions and , to the best of my ability, I refrained from trying to "convince" you

If you wish me to respond to the comments above, i will try and do so.

I am sad to notice that you have read certain of my replies in a somewhat "perverted" way and I can only trust that it done in sincerity.

You have posed one question and asked if I can back up with scriptures the fact that we are "once again" fully Holy and Justified, reconciled - Perhaps I can ask you to comment with scriptural references if this is an incorrect reflection of His work on the cross. As always, your insight is valued.

I do respect the fact that you have difficulty to see the same way as I do and once again, I state that only the Holy Spirit can lift any vial (give revelation). As such I have stated that I remain willing to listen and to keep a teachable spirit.

Through earlier posts, I did ask some questions to better understand your convictions and I thank you for answering them.

It is thus with love and gratitude that I conclude my response to your questions and invite you to ask as many more as you may wish.

Love you - Brits

Thanks for the conversation.