Secular Historians regarding Jesus

[the rookie]

Yeah this topic took an odd turn.

You can define your own religion, I suppose. But what gives one the right to define someone elses religion?

"I know you think you're Jewish. But you're really a Christian".

What is difficult is the shift that began to happen 20 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, one that became pronounced around 150 AD - the shift of Christianity from a primarily (even solely) Jewish religion to a primarily (even solely) Gentile religion. For the original "fathers" of Christianity, they had no interest in calling it "Christianity", a "new religion", or being called "Christians" at all. That was Luke's point in Acts - the term "Christian" was a designation given by pagan outsiders that had taken hold by the time Luke wrote Acts. The early apostles, all Jewish, never stopped being "Jewish" in practice and lifestyle; didn't start "Christianity"; and simply called their new sect, "The Way" - as in, "the way of true Judaism" for those who believed that Yeshua was the Messiah.

[Fenris]

What is difficult is the shift that began to happen 20 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, one that became pronounced around 150 AD - the shift of Christianity from a primarily (even solely) Jewish religion to a primarily (even solely) Gentile religion. For the original "fathers" of Christianity, they had no interest in calling it "Christianity", a "new religion", or being called "Christians" at all. That was Luke's point in Acts - the term "Christian" was a designation given by pagan outsiders that had taken hold by the time Luke wrote Acts. The early apostles, all Jewish, never stopped being "Jewish" in practice and lifestyle; didn't start "Christianity"; and simply called their new sect, "The Way" - as in, "the way of true Judaism" for those who believed that Yeshua was the Messiah.

We have different beliefs and are practicing different faiths. Those facts are not subject to dispute. If you think that Christians are the "real Jews" and people practicing Judaism are completely wrong, that's fine. But you can't make the point that people practicing Judaism are actually Christian. Because we are not.

[rejoice44]

This whole thing is ridiculous. I don't think you understand I'm speaking in terms of historical fact. I've already agreed with you and Bandit on the theological point of Jesus being Israel's Messiah and thus his followers were simply people who embraced the whole story of Israel, while most did not. Because of this, there are now two different religions, Judaism and Christianity. They are not the same thing. How is what I'm saying controversial?

Christians practice Judaism and unsaved Jews do not.

In order to practice Judaism it requires a high priest and a Temple. Jews that reject the Messiah have neither a high priest nor a Temple, and therefore they cannot practice Judaism. Whereas Christians do have a high priest and a temple, and therefore can practice Judaism.

Consider that there is absolutely nothing more important in Judaism than the High Priest, and the Temple.

[the rookie]

We have different beliefs and are practicing different faiths. Those facts are not subject to dispute.

Agreed. My point was that, early on, there was a blending together of the two faiths that would be surprising today to many Christians.

If you think that Christians are the "real Jews" and people practicing Judaism are completely wrong, that's fine.

You know I don't think that. Nor did I say anything like that. I simply differentiated between the early Jewish apostles and their lifestyle and practice and modern Gentile believers and their lifestyle and practice. Acts 15 makes the same distinction between early Jewish believers and new Gentile converts.

But you can't make the point that people practicing Judaism are actually Christian. Because we are not.

Say what now? You lost me there. Did you actually read what I wrote?

[the rookie]

Christians practice Judaism and unsaved Jews do not.

Gentile Christians do not. That was the whole point of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, supplemented by Paul's main points in Galatians to the churches there.

[Fenris]

Christians practice Judaism and unsaved Jews do not.

What religion are Jews practicing?

In order to practice Judaism it requires a high priest and a Temple. ...

Consider that there is absolutely nothing more important in Judaism than the High Priest, and the Temple.

No, you don't get to decide that. You don't get to define Judaism.

[Fenris]

Agreed. My point was that, early on, there was a blending together of the two faiths that would be surprising today to many Christians.

Well, Christianity is a daughter religion to Judaism. Of course there are going to be similarities.

You know I don't think that. Nor did I say anything like that. I simply differentiated between the early Jewish apostles and their lifestyle and practice and modern Gentile believers and their lifestyle and practice. Acts 15 makes the same distinction between early Jewish believers and new Gentile converts.



Say what now? You lost me there. Did you actually read what I wrote?

Yes. I just don't see what your conclusion is. You are being very nuanced...

[rejoice44]

Gentile Christians do not. That was the whole point of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, supplemented by Paul's main points in Galatians to the churches there.

Maybe Judaism needs to be clearly defined.

[the rookie]

Well, Christianity is a daughter religion to Judaism. Of course there are going to be similarities.

Absolutely, with one huge difference, of course.

Yes. I just don't see what your conclusion is. You are being very nuanced...

I tend to be

Basic conclusion is that the early Jewish apostles were never looking to start a new religion; they were looking to integrate faith in Jesus into the one they had grown up practicing and living.

Salvation coming to the Gentiles forced them to look at the implications of what God had in mind from the beginning for both Jew and Gentile - particularly as it relates to Amos 9.

They had to deal with the broader strokes of God's plan (as spoken by the prophets) for the nations and immediately come up with a practical solution for the new Gentile converts regarding lifestyle and practice, which by definition had to look different than the expression of faith they were culturally familiar with. The details of Jewish lifestyle and culture formed by the Torah would be something that would make it hard for Gentiles to enter into God's plan. The Jerusalem Council was the "inspired" solution to bring Gentile converts into a Jewish religion: the Gentiles were to observe the "spiritual lifestyle and practices" of their faith without being unduly burdened by the cultural expressions God had given exclusively to the Jews.

[Fenris]

Basic conclusion is that the early Jewish apostles were never looking to start a new religion; they were looking to integrate faith in Jesus into the one they had grown up practicing and living.

I actually don't disagree with that. What became of their intent is another matter entirely.

They had to deal with the broader strokes of God's plan (as spoken by the prophets) for the nations and immediately come up with a practical solution for the new Gentile converts regarding lifestyle and practice, which by definition had to look different than the expression of faith they were culturally familiar with. The details of Jewish lifestyle and culture formed by the Torah would be something that would make it hard for Gentiles to enter into God's plan. The Jerusalem Council was the "inspired" solution to bring Gentile converts into a Jewish religion: the Gentiles were to observe the "spiritual lifestyle and practices" of their faith without being unduly burdened by the cultural expressions God had given exclusively to the Jews.

Believe it or not, I don't disagree here either.

Mind you, I don't think Christianity is "correct", although it does serve God's plans.

[rejoice44]

[QUOTE]

What religion are Jews practicing?

Surely not the religion of the Bible. Everything connected with worshiping God requires a Priest and a Temple. Remember when Saul tried to be his own priest?

No, you don't get to decide that. You don't get to define Judaism.

No I don't, the Bible does.

[Fenris]

Surely not the religion of the Bible.

Hmm not how we see it.

Everything connected with worshiping God requires a Priest and a Temple.

Again, you don't get to define what Judaism is. The arrogance is astounding.

[the rookie]

I actually don't disagree with that. What became of their intent is another matter entirely.

Agreed. But, to be fair, 2000 years is a long time and God, in His foreknowledge, saw all of this coming and in His sovereign leadership and oversight allowed it all to unfold this way.

Believe it or not, I don't disagree here either.

I believe it, actually

Mind you, I don't think Christianity is "correct", although it does serve God's plans.

Well, to be fair, you think that some of Christianity is "correct"

[Fenris]

Agreed. But, to be fair, 2000 years is a long time and God, in His foreknowledge, saw all of this coming and in His sovereign leadership and oversight allowed it all to unfold this way.

Agreed.

Well, to be fair, you think that some of Christianity is "correct"

The way some here practice it meets with God's approval, I believe.

[rejoice44]

Hmm not how we see it.

Again, you don't get to define what Judaism is. The arrogance is astounding.

What is your definition of Judaism Fenris?