Deadpan Snarker
No one here is disputing that.Originally Posted by quiet dove
Um, I'm not aware of any record of this outside the NT.And also that recorded history of these historians includes things like the darkness that was upon the earth when Jesus was crucified and died. The earth quake.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
I have a reference book that I thought gave some really interesting info, but of course it is not at my house at the moment...so, I probably should have thought that through a little further before starting the thread...LOL. But I will eventually get it back and see if what I think is there, is actually there..
Deadpan Snarker
Let us know when you do.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
I will, hopefully this weekend, but not sure how the weekend is lined up yet...
Deadpan Snarker
I would think this would be a rather 'busy' weekend.I will, hopefully this weekend, but not sure how the weekend is lined up yet...
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
the truth frees us
Hi dove, I get your meaning because I have also run across information along these lines but can't recall where. Jesus was a historical reality and so historians of the time recorded this and give added credibility to his existence in the context of the times in which he walked upon the earth.
the other dove.
"The flowers appear on the earth,
the time of singing has come,
and the voice of the turtledove
is heard in our land ." SofS 2:12 (RSV)
Deadpan Snarker
It would be...helpful... if you could recall where.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
the truth frees us
Sorry, just giving her a little support. Busy week this and can't do research but did teach Ancient History at a college and recall it from my preparation during those days about 16 years ago.
Christmas blessings!
"The flowers appear on the earth,
the time of singing has come,
and the voice of the turtledove
is heard in our land ." SofS 2:12 (RSV)
Deadpan Snarker
Ah. A shame you can't recall where.
And to you. Merry Christmas.Christmas blessings!
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
the truth frees us
Okay, Fenris and quiet dove, just found this which may be very helpful. Check out this link..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Gospels not necessary to read the article but you'll find it worthwhile to scroll down quite a ways to a section called "External Sources". The first paragraph. There you go! This is likely what my research years ago turned up or something like it.
"The flowers appear on the earth,
the time of singing has come,
and the voice of the turtledove
is heard in our land ." SofS 2:12 (RSV)
Deadpan Snarker
From that paragraph:
However, these are generally references to Early Christians rather than a historical Jesus.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Thanks you, us doves need to stick together....LOLHi dove, I get your meaning because I have also run across information along these lines but can't recall where. Jesus was a historical reality and so historians of the time recorded this and give added credibility to his existence in the context of the times in which he walked upon the earth.
the other dove.
I just need to get some reference books back to hopefully find what I am searching for.
The thing is, the Bible has more substantial ancient documentation than any other works. And these other works out there, people accept as accurate. But yet they(not you Fenris- 'they' do the same thing to the OT) want to argue the Bible is fables and myth. When if fact, the Bible has more to back it up than the other stuff they have no problem believing. Plus archeology has produced much to back up some of the history given in the Bible.
Plus, when considering that the people spoken to, such as at Pentecost, these people were alive when the events happened, and easily could have called it if it had all been lies. Whether or not, or even, if Acts was written many years after the fact, the people at the time of Pentecost, indeed had seen this Jesus fella for themselves.
Deadpan Snarker
'They' can believe whatever they want. I feel no compulsion to prove the veracity of the bible to anybody. And I couldn't even if I wanted to.
I'm not so sure that this is correct. The NT was written decades later, in a different language, in a different country. Doesn't mean that it's not true- but saying that 'if it was false someone would have said something' is not a good point to make.Plus, when considering that the people spoken to, such as at Pentecost, these people were alive when the events happened, and easily could have called it if it had all been lies. Whether or not, or even, if Acts was written many years after the fact, the people at the time of Pentecost, indeed had seen this Jesus fella for themselves.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
the truth frees us
It states that in the first part of that paragraph but I am referring to the last part where it mentions Tacitus and that he refered to the Christus.
Yet I can see that it isn't really too clear whether that implies no reference to the historical Jesus or not. And there are other areas to search based on the information in that paragraph.
As far as it goes though..I think the bible is history as well as the inspired Word of God. Time and again the characters in the bible account have been verified as having existed historically. It seems to be that on that basis Jesus would be also.
And since I believe that the Gospel writings were either eye witness accounts or based upon eye witness accounts to me they clearly establish the existence of a real person named Jesus.
I am thinking now of the writings of eye witness accounts of the battles of the American Civil War even of the records of the War of the Rebellion. (Did some research on that once for a paper too) Those are primary sources and are history and when those accounts are included in history books or secondary sources they are used as references and considered authentic because someone believes what those people wrote and saw and the people mentioned were really authentic people and the accounts really did happen. No one has much of a problem with that. Yet, so much skepticism (not referring to you guys) about Jesus and His historical existence.
It really is a matter of faith and acceptance of the biblical writings..and without that and with doubt easy to enter into the skepticism involved.
"The flowers appear on the earth,
the time of singing has come,
and the voice of the turtledove
is heard in our land ." SofS 2:12 (RSV)
But I am talking about those who heard Peter, not who later wrote the account. In other words when Peter said
Act 2:32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses....36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Those who heard Peter could have easily debunked what he said having been alive at the time and many having witnessed the things Peter said, but they knew it to be true.
Acts was written between 60-64, which was a very short time after the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.
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