At least you studied history, so you might not have dug in the dirt, but at least you had enough sense to know you enjoyed history.Originally Posted by turtledove
Points well said and received! This Christian, a former college history teacher, thanks you!
Weren't we talking about archeology? If we weren't(as Gilda Radner would say)....nevermind
But I am not talking about theology. I mean, I am, but my point is, either the events happened or they did not...that's the history.
So first I have to ask myself, did Israel really leave Egypt. If I find they did, then I have something to consider when it comes to the rest of the historical story.
Just like with Jesus. First one would have to ask, did this fella really exist. Then, considering His death...did this fella really die as told in the stories. One thing at a time regarding only the history..then if the historical facts prove to be valid..... go from their with what this fella Jesus claimed and taught.
Either the history backs up enough to then consider the theology, or it doesn't.
I am not an historian either, but I am capable of giving an honest account of something, especially when it is not a thousand years back in history.Those were not historians. They were believers. Just as the writers of the NT were also not historians, but believers.
A mans honesty and integrity is the biggest factor, what he shows about himself, not what he says about himselfBut it is a factor
Deadpan Snarker
Someone arguing that they "historically" happened is making a theological point. Someone saying that the crypt was empty is saying that God resurrected Jesus. If the person making that point is a Christian, they are expressing their beliefs- not something factual.
And again. Yes, I believe they did. But I'm not going to quote the bible as an historical source- because it isn't. It's a religious, theological text, that one either believes, or they do not.So first I have to ask myself, did Israel really leave Egypt.
It's a big jump from "did Jesus exist" to "he was the son of god who died for the sins of mankind".Just like with Jesus. First one would have to ask, did this fella really exist. Then, considering His death...did this fella really die as told in the stories. One thing at a time regarding only the history..then is the history proves to be valid, go from their with what this fella Jesus claimed and taught.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
the truth frees us
I took your post as read. Sorry if I got off topic. But I did more than study history...I did research and I did some graduate work, papers, etc. My point was to agree with you that Christians can be historians. I never liked Gilda Radner.
"The flowers appear on the earth,
the time of singing has come,
and the voice of the turtledove
is heard in our land ." SofS 2:12 (RSV)
Captain Obvious
Too big for mankind to make without God's help. No one can be talked into such an outrageous claim - the light of the knowledge of the glory of Yaweh in the face of Yeshua Ha-Mashiach has to shine upon us.
The Rookie
Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".
I was not so much a big fan of her, but the news thing on SNL when she totally got it wrong and would say "never mind"
And since you are qualified, would you say that history is what it is and it either backs up what we think are facts or it doesn't. Or am I totally wrong with that thought?
I mean, if history backs up this man named Jesus ... then we have more support for then considering what this man Jesus taught and claimed?
...speaking from the stand point who has not accepted the Bible as accurate history.
Deadpan Snarker
Well, then it's no use quoting Christian historians on the topic.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
Again, the bible is not a history text. It's a religious text.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
the truth frees us
We are of one thought on this. Happy New Year!
"The flowers appear on the earth,
the time of singing has come,
and the voice of the turtledove
is heard in our land ." SofS 2:12 (RSV)
Ok
You have placed your faith in what then? I mean, you pretty much consider Christians as having blind faith.... the Bible only being true because we believe it is true.
But what about you. Are you not placing your eternal state in Judaism, but yet you have very little real trust in the accuracy of the writings that teach you that Judaism
It is a big jump, but that is not what I ask. I ask if the historical facts can be backed up, by someone with integrity, be their faith whatever it is. Is that not at least a starting point of consideration?It's a big jump from "did Jesus exist" to "he was the son of god who died for the sins of mankind".
God promised a Redeemer to Israel, God promised a King. So do you not believe your scriptures to be an accurate account of the prophets?
Don't toss out anything about Jesus, we are talking about the reliability of scripture, not anyone interpretation of it. It's reliability to have recorded history accurately. We both place our eternal destiny is the words it contains, pretty important....
Either it is accurate, or it is a waste of our time, ....for if it is something that is not even able to accurately record historical facts, how can it possibly be something of God at all and be a light unto my, or your, eternal destiny.
I, as many here, have gained the trust in what we believe about the Bible, it is not simply, at this point, blind faith. So I am asking you the same thing about where your faith is placed, and why...if you do not consider the scriptures even able to record accurate history, the writers not capable of being that able and or honest, but yet you place your whole faith into the God that very book teaches about?
Deadpan Snarker
If you described something supernatural, I would be skeptical. And properly so.
Not sure what this has to do with the present discussion.A mans honesty and integrity is the biggest factor, what he shows about himself, not what he says about himself
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Captain Obvious
Depends on what the "use" is.Well, then it's no use quoting Christian historians on the topic.
The Rookie
Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".
So the supernatural things recorded by Moses, they are, because they are supernatural, then not historical facts. Was Moses then not a man of integrity? and thus able to accurately put forth history be that history Jacobs descendents living in Egypt, or those same descendents walking through the parted sea?
How is it not pertinent to the discussion when we are talking a bout the integrity of recorded history. If a man is a liar, why would I believe anything he has written?Not sure what this has to do with the present discussion.
Fenris, if a historical reliability is not present with in the OT, then why would we possibly even consider it having accuracy to teach us about God?
Is it not easier to write down what happened(which is basically what history is), then it is to write down the things of God? If the easy cannot be entrusted to a man of integrity, how can any revelation about God be entrusted to that same man to record?
If a man is not honest and able with the lesser, how could he possibly be honest and able with the greater?
You are placing your faith in what, or who? The men who tell you what the scriptures say? But yet you do not place the same amount of trustworthiness in the scriptures themselves?
How is it you know anything definite about God that you would place your existence not only in this life, but more importantly in the next one if you have no scriptures that can be trusted with historical facts, much less be trusted with the things of God?
Deadpan Snarker
And I say the same thing about my bible. Or anyone's holy book. It's true because one believes it is. That is why it's called "faith".
I have faith in them.But what about you. Are you not placing your eternal state in Judaism, but yet you have very little real trust in the accuracy of the writings that teach you that Judaism
If you're saying that rationality and logic lead to the conclusion that Christianity is correct, no.It is a big jump, but that is not what I ask. I ask if the historical facts can be backed up, by someone with integrity, be their faith whatever it is. Is that not at least a starting point of consideration?
God promised a king, not a "King". That we're going to have to debate on whether a word is capitalized shows how far apart we are here.God promised a Redeemer to Israel, God promised a King. So do you not believe your scriptures to be an accurate account of the prophets?
The same could be said for any faith.Don't toss out anything about Jesus, we are talking about the reliability of scripture, not anyone interpretation of it. It's reliability to have recorded history accurately. We both place our eternal destiny is the words it contains, pretty important....
The topic keeps migrating. You couldn't find any "secular historians" who mention Jesus, so now the NT becomes "historical".Either it is accurate, or it is a waste of our time, ....for if it is something that is not even able to accurately record historical facts, how can it possibly be something of God at all and be a light unto my, or your, eternal destiny.
If anyone could "historically prove" that their religion was correct, man would lose free will. God wants us to make choices, so He has preserved our free will. Yes?I, as many here, have gained the trust in what we believe about the Bible, it is not simply, at this point, blind faith. So I am asking you the same thing about where your faith is placed, and why...if you do not consider the scriptures even able to record accurate history, the writers not capable of being that able and or honest, but yet you place your whole faith into the God that very book teaches about?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
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