The gift of God Ephesians 2:8

[Gadgeteer]

Miscarriages happen!

Interesting point --- though, a mother doesn't decide to have a miscarriage (thus the analogy falls short). :-)

We are to be 'pregnant with Christ', yes, ie he must be formed in us. But only those who bring this to completion get the reward.

What I'm sure we agree on, is that salvation is "Christ-in-us". Thus it's not a "saved-in-the-FUTURE" thing, it's "saved now, and saved in the future too if we persevere".

This life is like a probation period after being hired. Yeah, either you are OR you aren't hired, it's all or nothing in that sense. But if one shows himself to be unfit for the job, he doesn't make it through. Can we say he never had the job? No. But we can say he didn't make it through probation.

Throughout Scripture are references to "saved, if we CONTINUE/HOLD-FAST". Col1:21-23, 2Cor15:2, Heb3:6 & 15, etcetera.

1Cor15:1-2 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Philip2:16 also has Paul judging his own success in terms of his followers' persevering in salvation.

When one gets the job, he gets the necessary tools right away... That is grace. And if he becomes able to do more work, different things, he receives the missing tools. That is grace, anointing, the empowerment of God to serve him. Such a person is partaking in eternal life, working in the kingdom. But that is no guarantee of what end they will meet.

The concept of "being deceived away from God" is replete in Scripture; we're at the same risk as Eve was. (2Cor11:3.)

Rather this person could get the job, but then not last. Many are called, few are chosen.

Matt22:14. Context is important --- the "many" is "everyone-you-find", and the "few" are those who came (and put on clean clothes).

To give an example, at my job, I was hired along with 6 other guys... We were all supposed to start on the Monday. To start off, 3 guys didn't show up. Then one of them quit soon after starting. One worked with me for a bit till he found another job. Another lasted until we had a 3 month layoff (this is usual at my job, we work about 9 months a year), and I haven't seen him since.

Some of the seed falls on the rocks, nothing comes of it. Some of it falls among weeds and thorns, it grows quickly but doesn't last. Some of it falls on shallow ground, goes up fast, but when it cant reach enough water to support it, it dies. And then some falls on the good ground, and bears fruit.

Here too it's important to understand what is being taught. Does the seed flourish because the ground is "good"? Or is the ground called "good", if the seed flourishes? Contextually, it's the latter; Heb6:7-8 applies, one field is tilled expecting to reap good fruit --- if it does the ground is blessed, but if it yields thorns and thistles it is cursed and burned.

Ironically, I like thistles; bright purple tufts of flowers with a good fragrance. If they grow in my yard I do NOT cut them down... :-P

Can we say that those who worked there shortly never worked there? Not really. Further, can we say those who didn't show up on the Monday were never hired? No, they were! Rather they didn't endure.

God freely invests grace on whoever will give the job a shot... And it will not return to him void. But that means it will not return with NO fruit... But it won't return with ALL fruit either.

As long as we all agree that "by their fruits they will be known", we have enough to stand together. I am concerned if and when someone teaches "backslidden-but-saved", that is they are bearing bad fruit but will still waltz into Heaven...

[Neanias]

Interesting point --- though, a mother doesn't decide to have a miscarriage (thus the analogy falls short). :-) What I'm sure we agree on, is that salvation is "Christ-in-us". Thus it's not a "saved-in-the-FUTURE" thing, it's "saved now, and saved in the future too if we persevere".
Throughout Scripture are references to "saved, if we CONTINUE/HOLD-FAST". Col1:21-23, 2Cor15:2, Heb3:6 & 15, etcetera.

1Cor15:1-2 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Philip2:16 also has Paul judging his own success in terms of his followers' persevering in salvation.
The concept of "being deceived away from God" is replete in Scripture; we're at the same risk as Eve was. (2Cor11:3.)
Matt22:14. Context is important --- the "many" is "everyone-you-find", and the "few" are those who came (and put on clean clothes). Here too it's important to understand what is being taught. Does the seed flourish because the ground is "good"? Or is the ground called "good", if the seed flourishes? Contextually, it's the latter; Heb6:7-8 applies, one field is tilled expecting to reap good fruit --- if it does the ground is blessed, but if it yields thorns and thistles it is cursed and burned.

Ironically, I like thistles; bright purple tufts of flowers with a good fragrance. If they grow in my yard I do NOT cut them down... :-P
As long as we all agree that "by their fruits they will be known", we have enough to stand together. I am concerned if and when someone teaches "backslidden-but-saved", that is they are bearing bad fruit but will still waltz into Heaven...

I have nothing to say but amen!

In agreement with everything you said!

[glad4mercy]

I havent read all the posts, so I may be repeating things that have already been said or backtracking. but my 2 cents to the OP is as follows...

I believe that salvation is a gift, in that it is unmerited, unearned, and undeserved. Nevertheless, there are some things that pertain to salvation that must be appropriated by us. To me, salvation is a multitude of gifts, but if we do not receive them and walk in them, we will not receive the full benefits. God has given to us all things that pertain to life and Godliness, but they must be received in faith, cherished, nurtured, and we must abide in them.

[glad4mercy]

Here's an old story to illustrate my post above. I heard this story about 25 years ago, but it certainly applies.

A young man was about to graduate high school. He was hoping to receive a car as a graduation present, but instead his father gave him a Bible. He was so upset with his father over his graduation present that he stormed off to college without even saying goodbye. A few years later his father died. After the funeral as the young man felt bad about the way he had treated his father he picked up the Bible and opened it. Inside the Bible was a check written for the ammount of a new car.

Sometimes we receive gifts but fail to open them. Salvation is justification, new birth, and hope of heaven, but it is other things as well. It is the priviledge of partaking of the divine nature, it is the joy of a close walk with the Father, it is the glory of knowing the Son intimately, it is the fullness of the Spirit, it is sanctification, it is fruitfullness, it is perfect love that casts out fear. We can receive the package of salvation, but we must not stop there. We must also open the package- just as the young man needed to open the Bible to find the check.

PS- Everything we receive from God is a gift of grace. We merit nothing.

[Neanias]

Just another thought on the river analogy...

One thing that I find dangerous is that often people who have a motor (and often it is those who don't use it) look down on those with paddles... Or say it's evil to use your paddles if it's all you have.

But correct understanding of what the paddles do, and what they don't is very important.

With the paddles, one CAN be scarcely saved. The paddles is the old nature, it is weak... not evil, just weak! Thus it always falls short of the glory of God. Those who use it and long for righteousness are righteous... But not holy! It is impossible for one to arrive at the high place, the 'upward call in Christ Jesus' with the paddles, but it is possible for him to save himself from the waterfall, which is the wages of sin, death (in this case, the SECOND death).

It is no sin to be weak... It is sin to not use what we do have. One is far worse off having a motor and not using it than having paddles and actually using them!

But now, for those who do have the motor, let us forget what is behind, and move on to perfection, the top of the mountain where the river emanates from!

Blessings to all!

[Gadgeteer]

Just another thought on the river analogy...

One thing that I find dangerous is that often people who have a motor (and often it is those who don't use it) look down on those with paddles... Or say it's evil to use your paddles if it's all you have.

The question is, "WHY is it all someone has?" If I'm trying desperately to paddle upstream and avoid the falls, am I not refusing the free gift of a motor?

But correct understanding of what the paddles do, and what they don't is very important.

With the paddles, one CAN be scarcely saved. The paddles is the old nature, it is weak... not evil, just weak! Thus it always falls short of the glory of God. Those who use it and long for righteousness are righteous... But not holy! It is impossible for one to arrive at the high place, the 'upward call in Christ Jesus' with the paddles, but it is possible for him to save himself from the waterfall, which is the wages of sin, death (in this case, the SECOND death).

How is it that you perceive two "saved" positions? One "from the wages of sin and death", the other walking with Jesus?

Paul said in Romans8:3 that the Law could not (save) because of weak flesh; so God did what flesh was too weak to do.

It is no sin to be weak...

It is if it is the same position as "refusing the gift from Jesus and the power of the Spirit". Jesus didn't come to provide A way to eternal life, He came to provide THE way.

If one is "saved from the wages of sin and death", then he enters God's eternal kingdom; if that can happen apart from being fully indwelt by Jesus, then how does Acts4:12 fit?
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Seems to me that if one could avoid the waterfall by his own rowing, that is very much "salvation in someone else"...

It is sin to not use what we do have. One is far worse off having a motor and not using it than having paddles and actually using them!

To me "paddles" represent ones own efforts/works.

But now, for those who do have the motor, let us forget what is behind, and move on to perfection, the top of the mountain where the river emanates from!

What I strive to teach most is fellowship between God and man. The moment Jesus died the veil tore --- why? It's important. The veil tore for me, and for each of you. Every person reading this is invited within the veil, into the very presence of Almighty God. He celebrates you, delights in your company, enjoys your fellowship. His thoughts of you outnumber the grains of sand.

"Eternal life is knowing You (Father), and knowing (Me Jesus)". Jn17:3.

That's what it is. No terrible struggling, no desperate rowing, no fear that we have not sweated enough. But the pure joy of His power working through us, the ecstasy of dwelling in His perfect love forever. Happiness in life is in the friendships we have --- my wealth is each of you, which I earnestly desire to take with me into eternity. But deeper is the friendship we have with HIM.
"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." Jn15:13.

As Jesus hung there dying, with indescribable pain, none of you were born; you were but shadows in the future.

...but your name was in His thoughts, and on His lips. YOU --- whoever you are, reading this.

Can you turn your back on such love?

That's what it means to "move on to perfection", it is as James said in chapter 4 to draw near to God. To spend time with Him, that your LOVE with Him matures.

[Gadgeteer]

Here's an old story to illustrate my post above. I heard this story about 25 years ago, but it certainly applies.

A young man was about to graduate high school. He was hoping to receive a car as a graduation present, but instead his father gave him a Bible. He was so upset with his father over his graduation present that he stormed off to college without even saying goodbye. A few years later his father died. After the funeral as the young man felt bad about the way he had treated his father he picked up the Bible and opened it. Inside the Bible was a check written for the amount of a new car.

If that's a true story, that would be very hard for the kid to endure. Did you ever see the movie, "Escape from Hell"? A doctor could not forgive his father for abandoning him and his mother when he was little; closed the door on his father's face. A few weeks later, his father died of cancer, and he lost the chance for resolution. That was a large part of his motivation to go see "what happens after death".

...not every near-death-experience is pleasant....

Sometimes we receive gifts but fail to open them. Salvation is justification, new birth, and hope of heaven, but it is other things as well. It is the privilege of partaking of the divine nature, it is the joy of a close walk with the Father, it is the glory of knowing the Son intimately, it is the fullness of the Spirit, it is sanctification, it is fruitfulness, it is perfect love that casts out fear. We can receive the package of salvation, but we must not stop there. We must also open the package- just as the young man needed to open the Bible to find the check.

Open the package, receive the Son and the Spirit, and fellowship with God. He or she who is not truly head-over-heals in love with God, is not excited about being a Christian.

PS- Everything we receive from God is a gift of grace. We merit nothing.

Beautiful post --- VERY well done.

:-)

[Neanias]

The paddles is what we can do in our own strength. One can choose to swear to his own detriment... And follow through. To do what is fair, putting others before himself... Etc. This can all be done with the paddles.

People don't have the motor because they didn't hear of it... How can we blame them when the church is barely using it? We're supposed to be showing them the way!

These are 'scarcely saved'. There are indeed two people who are saved. The righteous, who simply didn't know about the motor, and didn't use it. They strove to do what is right... Their heart is right before God. They are the Romans 7 man. Then there are those to whom the motor is revealed... The Romans 8 man, who is freed from the power of the current.

The one with the paddles is always fighting the current, sometimes going back a bit, then forward a bit. He is not 'victorious', but he survives, because his heart is right.

On the other hand, the one with the motor is 'above' the power of the current. He can go on unaffected by it because of the great power of the motor. This man walks as he walked... He is a saint!

The weak ones did not reject the offer of Christ... They didn't know about it. Jesus gives them eternal at the Matt. 25 judgment if they are righteous enough to love their neighbour... But we are called to walk in eternal life NOW!

[Gadgeteer]

The paddles is what we can do in our own strength. One can choose to swear to his own detriment... And follow through. To do what is fair, putting others before himself... Etc. This can all be done with the paddles.

I see what you're saying. But there is a "universal truth" --- as Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing". Calvinists (as an example) read Romans3:10-12 and think "no one does good apart from sovereign election (and monergistic regeneration)". Yet Jesus said "even sinners ...do good" (Lk6:33). But can a sinner be good enough to be saved, apart from Jesus?

People don't have the motor because they didn't hear of it... How can we blame them when the church is barely using it? We're supposed to be showing them the way!

We cannot blame them, nor does God. Paul was right in Acts4:12; there is no other path to eternal life other than Jesus. Yet, God is fair; I perceive passages like Rm2:14-16 says that Gentiles can have Jesus ("the Law") without even having heard of Him.

What about all the indigenous folks (Aztecs, Incas, Anastasie, Indians, Eskimos, Aborigines, Bushmen, etcetera) for all the time before missionaries told them of Jesus? NONE of them will enter Heaven? They will. He who seeks the Creator, finds Him.

These are 'scarcely saved'. There are indeed two people who are saved. The righteous, who simply didn't know about the motor, and didn't use it. They strove to do what is right... Their heart is right before God. They are the Romans 7 man. Then there are those to whom the motor is revealed... The Romans 8 man, who is freed from the power of the current.

I believe the only way to be righteous is through Jesus --- He will judge those who KNEW His name and His message, and those who did not. Each is held to his level of understanding.

The one with the paddles is always fighting the current, sometimes going back a bit, then forward a bit. He is not 'victorious', but he survives, because his heart is right.

I still think that if someone is truly pursuing the Creator, a very real Jesus will walk with him. And the Spirit will instruct him in what is right, and what is wrong. No one is saved by Human muscle.

On the other hand, the one with the motor is 'above' the power of the current. He can go on unaffected by it because of the great power of the motor. This man walks as he walked... He is a saint!

And what of the man who walks on the water? (All right, only two people have ever done that --- that is, walking on UNFROZEN water...)

The weak ones did not reject the offer of Christ... They didn't know about it. Jesus gives them eternal (life) at the Matt. 25 judgment if they are righteous enough to love their neighbor... But we are called to walk in eternal life NOW!

Scripture says "he who has the Son has eternal life; he who has not the Son of God has not eternal life". Even those who have not heard of Him can still have Him, as far as they understand Him.

[glad4mercy]

If that's a true story, that would be very hard for the kid to endure. Did you ever see the movie, "Escape from Hell"? A doctor could not forgive his father for abandoning him and his mother when he was little; closed the door on his father's face. A few weeks later, his father died of cancer, and he lost the chance for resolution. That was a large part of his motivation to go see "what happens after death".

...not every near-death-experience is pleasant....
Open the package, receive the Son and the Spirit, and fellowship with God. He or she who is not truly head-over-heals in love with God, is not excited about being a Christian.
Beautiful post --- VERY well done.

:-)

I don't know if it was a true story or a "parable", but if it was a true story it sure is a tragic one. I actually hope it didnt really happen.

I havent seen the movie you mentioned, I'll have to check it out some time.

There are often many untouched blessings in a Christians life, either because one didnt know about them, ( due to not getting the dust off the Bible), or disobedience in some area.

Thank you for the kind words.

[Gadgeteer]

I don't know if it was a true story or a "parable", but if it was a true story it sure is a tragic one. I actually hope it didnt really happen.

I haven't seen the movie you mentioned, I'll have to check it out some time.

There are often many untouched blessings in a Christian's life, either because one didn't know about them, ( due to not getting the dust off the Bible), or disobedience in some area.

Thank you for the kind words.

I recommend the movie. It opens with him "borrowing" an ambulance, and awakening the preacher at a small church. So you get the impression that he did "escape from Hell".

...but he didn't escape alone --- something came back with him, and is after him...

All told, a pretty good plot. A sub-plot is his friend "Marissa", a psychologist, studying near-death-experiences. She has placed a sign on the roof of the hospital, only people dying (and leaving through the roof!) would be able to see the sign. Says things like "loose lips sink ships", and "a stitch in time saves nine". Do you all think the surgeon knew what the sign said???

;-)

[glad4mercy]

I recommend the movie. It opens with him "borrowing" an ambulance, and awakening the preacher at a small church. So you get the impression that he did "escape from Hell".

...but he didn't escape alone --- something came back with him, and is after him...

All told, a pretty good plot. A sub-plot is his friend "Marissa", a psychologist, studying near-death-experiences. She has placed a sign on the roof of the hospital, only people dying (and leaving through the roof!) would be able to see the sign. Says things like "loose lips sink ships", and "a stitch in time saves nine". Do you all think the surgeon knew what the sign said???

;-)

Thanks for the recommend. I will keep an eye out for it. I tried to find it on "Blockbuster" but I was unable. Maybe at a Christian bookstore.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas and New year.

[Gadgeteer]

Thanks for the recommend. I will keep an eye out for it. I tried to find it on "Blockbuster" but I was unable. Maybe at a Christian bookstore.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas and New year.

And you, thanx! :-)

There are several good Christian-themed movies. "Timechangers" for one. Although only available widescreen, I recorded it off of TBN, "fullscreen" (there is no such thing as a Human with widescreen eyes!). It has Hal Linden ("Barney Miller"), Gavin McCloud ("Captain Stubing" from Love Boat) and others. A seminary professor gets sent to the future (our present, from about 1900), to discover the fallacy of trying to advance the teachings of the Lord without the Lord of the teachings. End of that movie he put a large Bible on the time-machine stage and tried to send it to 2100, but it wouldn't go. Tried Two Thousand Fifty, wouldn't go. Two Thousand Thirty, wouldn't go. The scene fades to black with him trying a closer date, and me screaming: "NO! I want to know when the world ends!"

[Butch5]

Two Thousand Thirty, wouldn't go. The scene fades to black with him trying a closer date, and me screaming: "NO! I want to know when the world ends!"

I believe it's very close.

[Gadgeteer]

I believe it's very close.

Well, there's the "Tribulation", which could be from 3 years to 7. Congress snuck in "Real ID" in May 2005 as a rider; it is a global identification system. Our driver's license changed to include finger-prints. The next step of "Real ID" was to be RFID, a microchip which can be scanned from 100 feet away (our state opted out of it for now); stores would put scanners on every aisle and track your buying habits ("demographics") --- walk past the diapers, and you'd start getting ads for baby products. Just like in the movie, "Minority Report".

Zero privacy. Except if you started wrapping the things in aluminum foil (like they advise you to do with current passports --- passports DO have an RFID chip in them now!). Foil blocks the radio waves, the "Faraday Cage" effect. I have a metal wallet marketed as "blocking RFID signals".

The rumor is that the forced global implementation of REAL-ID/RFID was moved from 2011 to 2013. Purportedly to combat terrorism, you can't buy or sell without it (they monitor how much food each person buys so that terrorists cannot eat!). Of course, the next step from "RFID in the card", is RFID in the hand, or the forehead! Revelation 13.

Rev20:4-6 implies that those who receive the mark cannot go to Heaven.

So we're alot closer than anyone thinks.



Faraday, btw, was a Christian! So were a lot of scientists; Bohr, Newton (most of his writings were SERMONS), many of them were. And many currently ARE! I recommend the movie, "Expelled --- No Intelligence Allowed". It'll make you angry...