Men as "brides of Christ"

[Liquid Tension]

Well, I for one would not look good in a white gown and heels.

[andrew_no_one]

Well, I for one would not look good in a white gown and heels.

This conversation borders (not even borders) on ridiculous (and I don't blame our brother LT just because I quoted him, indeed that has more to do with my scripture reference.) Considering that only the bride of Christ is saved from Hell...I don’t care what Jesus decides to call me, I just want to go where He is.

Matthew 22:11-14
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

[Athanasius]

The conversation may border on the ridiculous (according to you, at least), but is the question being asked of the same ridiculous nature?

Obviously I'll treat Warrior4God's question as sincere, and while doing so will freely acknowledge that I, too, have struggled with "church as the bride" imagery (for other reasons). For Warrior4God, this metaphor conjures up images of "a drag queen or effeminate homosexual man dressing up in a wedding gown, heels, and makeup and I find that disgusting". Fair enough. This question is firmly in the realm of the personal for Warrior4God.

Slug1's response is rather Platonic: Warrior4God is ignorant, which is the root of his attitude towards this metaphor. Through studying scripture, the gaining of knowledge, Warrior4God will come to accept and understand the metaphor, removing the knee-jerk conceptions his mind seems to subject him too. Perhaps this also, in keeping with Plato, removes some sort of evil Warrior4God is committing. This is likely stretching the Platonic analogy too far for comfort, but so be it. The reality would seem to be that Warrior4God understands the metaphors "spiritually", yet still has issue with the apparently physical metaphor: after all, when we do ever talk about 'brides' and 'grooms' otherwise, except within the context of marriage?

Bias enters here. Slug1 asks, "then why a feeling that is sinful?" which leaves me asking, "when did Warrior4God ever say he felt sinful?". He didn't, of course, but what he did say was that the metaphor made him feel uncomfortable (to summarize what he did say into a word). I do wonder why his daughter teasing him bothers him, but it does, and so it must be addressed. Sadly Warrior4God doesn't again seriously take up Slug1's offer to go over Scripture, which incidentally strikes me as something that would have gone in circles. Warrior4God already believes he understands these metaphors correctly, that is, spiritually.

BrckBrln, how are you doing? Metaphors aren't always, of course, comfortable to everyone who hears them. I'm sure I could come up with dozens of metaphors to which you might take issue, to which I and others might not. A Christian struggling with gender dysphoria might, as an example, be uncomfortable with "the Church as the Bride of Christ" imagery. An alcoholic might take issue with a church serving actual wine during communion (an example involving a metaphor, yet not itself a metaphor)). The issue is, again, personal. And, again, Warrior4God seems to interpret the metaphor physically, even sexually (and I'm sure romantically), even while understanding its spiritual nature and intention. Funny thing, a persons mind.

This response here:

There are many metaphors symbolically indicating the hierarchy of our relationship with God, but only the relationship of a husband to a wife symbolically shows the great love and closeness we will have with Christ. He could have called Himself the boss and us the employees, but that would never convey how much he loves us and wants us to reign with Him, second only to Him, on His throne. Bear in mind that He is the King, and we will be the Queen. This is a typology that people in that time were very familiar with. When we think "marriage" in this culture we think legalized sexual relationship with (hopefully) affection. In that culture, and many around the world to this day, marriage was/is an arrangement based on status. I'm delighted to be His bride, and can't wait for the wedding.

It doesn't help. It should be obvious why. A blushing (male) bride who can't wait for the wedding (feast of the lamb, I imagine). You, sir, are perhaps more secure in your sexuality than most men I've met.

This also doesn't help:

Then, put those things outa your mind. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Take the thoughts captive. Fix your eyes on Jesus, and all the like. NOt so hard is that? Let the Word wash your mind, and meditate on what it really means, not what our depraved culture brings to mind. Just some thoughts, bro.

I suppose it's also quite sincere, so I shouldn't kick it around too much. But is this really the issue? Is Warrior4God's mind not renewed, not captive to Jesus? Is it really deprived as the implication seems to be? It's a fair accusation, though it doesn't seem to have been picked up on. Meditating on the Word is good advice -- should it be left at that?

Hey again, BrckBrln.

Has nothing to do with being 'spiritual'. It's about a proper hermeneutic. It's been pointed out repeatedly that the 'bride of Christ' is a metaphor applied to the corporate church, yet you insist on misinterpreting the phrase and therefore miss the whole point. As a consequence, it looks as if you have a very low view of these metaphors being included in the Bible and want to flippantly dismiss them by saying 'It's God's book, I guess he can do whatever he wants with it'. That's an awful way of looking at things, man.

Hmmm... I don't think he's misinterpreting the metaphor so much as he is misapplying the metaphor, and he's well aware that he is (as he himself has stated). Is it a sin to have a "very low view" of certain biblical metaphors, and what does that mean exactly? Yet ultimately you allow that Warrior4God is simply struggling with the metaphor. Although you too seem to be quite Platonic in your approach: how could Warrior4God understand the metaphor yet still take issue! This isn't something all that unique, intellectual understanding still resulting in an internal conflict, of a cognitive dissonance of sorts. It happens all the time for many believers when reading or discussing the 'Old' Testament. The answer in these situations is the same: study more; though I'm not convinced that's quite the issue. In any case...

...What then do I think the answer is? The answer is that Warrior4God struggles with the metaphor. I've struggled with it at times, just as I struggle with the metaphor of being a sheep, and just as I don't like the fact that God is wiser than I am, while at the same time knowing full well I can be pretty sheepish, and it's a very good thing God is wiser than I, and that I'm not literally being described as a Rocky Horror Picture Show Bride. What I understand and what I feel don't always coincide, and everyone needs to be allowed the room to manage those differences. As ridiculous or immature or silly as some of those struggles may be, they are serious for the person experiencing them. There is some good general advice in this thread, but it's general advice. I get the feeling that Warrior4God was more or less ganged up upon (or at least that's how I felt upon first going through this thread, even if I understood otherwise), when he should have been allowed the room to breathe. I'm not even sure he was really looking to be 'fixed', but it seems that's how he was universally understood. Maybe he was just looking to express a struggle; looking for a bit of support.

[andrew_no_one]

I agree with what you're saying, that it's personal perspective causing the issue. Would it help if we understood the church collective as the bride of Christ verses the individual Christian?

[Traveler]

For goodness sake, 4 pages and none of you get it We are looking at a covenant relationship. In the Old testament God entered into a covenant with Israel, He was their God and they were his people, when they drifted off they got the bill of divorce. When you marry there is a covenant contract.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

As per the bride of Christ we have the covenant contract. Christ is our king and we are the people that make up his kingdom. We will still be male and female and produce other little Christians but we will also be in covenant with Christ just as the Jews produced other little Jews while in covenant with God.

[claybevan]

Ok. Are there any guys here who feel the same as I do about this subject? The Bible describes the relationship between Christ and His Church as being like a marriage, with Christ as the groom and the Church as his bride. His Church is also made up of men. Who are His "brides." It feels a bit, well, homosexual (my wife wouldn't let me use the word "queer" ) for men to be described as "brides." Why can't I be a "best man?" I mean, at the Second Coming of Christ do I wear a white gown and heels or something?

The link below is really helpful in understanding the Bride of Christ analogy
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jew...ge_customs.htm

[Withoutfcf]

I think you guys are taking this a little to seriously?

I Mean I know what it means and I don't take it as a Physical meaning but still The imagery of a male bride is there..I find it funny until i See myself in a dress..
It Has nothing to do with scriptures just personal Imagination.

Just like when I see Saul(Paul) I for some odd reason think of Tom Cruise..Then after he is Paul i see him as A Metalhead.. why? I DON'T KNOW..

Same thing with the Bride.. Because of Imagination it can be uncomfortable for a male to see himself as a Bride..If it was literal or not..Its what goes into his mind. Just like me.

I don't see a lack of understanding just Human Imaginative.

[episkopos]

Ok. Are there any guys here who feel the same as I do about this subject? The Bible describes the relationship between Christ and His Church as being like a marriage, with Christ as the groom and the Church as his bride. His Church is also made up of men. Who are His "brides." It feels a bit, well, homosexual (my wife wouldn't let me use the word "queer" ) for men to be described as "brides." Why can't I be a "best man?" I mean, at the Second Coming of Christ do I wear a white gown and heels or something?

It is spiritual in nature. How about being vassals of the King? A liege Lord to a fellowship of knights?

[episkopos]

Well, I for one would not look good in a white gown and heels.

I too lost my "girlish" figure a long time ago!

[episkopos]

I agree with what you're saying, that it's personal perspective causing the issue. Would it help if we understood the church collective as the bride of Christ verses the individual Christian?

This is true! We seem to forget that we are saved INTO Christ's body, as in something corporate. We tend to add the prevalent individualism and colour everything in consequence.

[Warrior4God]

Well, I for one would not look good in a white gown and heels.

Maybe you're just being too hard on yourself?

[Warrior4God]

I agree with what you're saying, that it's personal perspective causing the issue. Would it help if we understood the church collective as the bride of Christ verses the individual Christian?

Honestly, that does seem to help me a little bit. Still not 100% "ok" with the "bride" metaphor but I can handle it better this way.

[Liquid Tension]

I too lost my "girlish" figure a long time ago!

Well, I've always been on the voluptuous side most of my life.

Maybe you're just being too hard on yourself?

Possibly, but heels just kill me.

[Warrior4God]

It is spiritual in nature. How about being vassals of the King? A liege Lord to a fellowship of knights?

This is way cooler.

[Warrior4God]

Possibly, but heels just kill me.

Well, sometimes it's about being willing to make sacrifices.