Visions of Daniel

[Cept One]

Wow lot of info in this thread... unfortunately i disagree with a lot of it.

1. The 4 beast of Dan 7 are clearly Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, & Rome. Each empire conquering its predecessor. You cannot ignore the historical evidence and push the third & forth beast into the future. Nor can you throw Daniel 8 into the future.

"Concerning the two monarchies of Persia and Greece, v. 20-22. The ram signified the succession of the kings of Media and Persia; the rough goat signified the kings of Greece; the great horn was Alexander; the four horns that rose in his room were the four kingdoms into which his conquests were cantoned, of which before, v. 8. They are said to stand up out of the nations, but not in his power; none of them ever made the figure that Alexander did." (Matthew Henry Notes)

2. How can the Seleucid empire be considered "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly (Dan 7:7 KJV)"?

While Antiochus was on his way to attack Egypt, a single Roman ambassador drew a line in the sand and totally punked Antiochus and his entire army.

3. The Selucid Empire did not conquer the entire earth,therefore it does not fulfill Dan 7:23

4. The little horn of Dan. 7 (papacy) cannot be the little horn of Dan. 8 (Antiochus) as they arise out of different empires.

The forth beast of Dan 7 (Rome) is also the beast that comes out of the sea in Rev. 13. Daniel clearly had trouble defining this beast in his vision, but John's beast has attributes of all of the beast in Daniels vision. This is made even clearer in Rev. 17:9

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (Rev 17:9 KJV)

Rome is known as the city of seven hills. While Vatican City is outside the old city walls, St. John's Basilica the ecclesiastical seat of the pope is located on Caelian Hill.


So now that we have established Rome as the forth beast and beast out of the sea, we need to identify the 10 horns/kingdoms & little horn. Well history shows us that 10 kingdoms arose out of the Roman empire the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Alamanni, Anglo-Saxons, Heruli, Lombards, & Burgundians.

The Heruli (493 ad), Vandals (534 ad), & Ostrogoth's (554ad) were totally wiped out as a new power was emerging within Rome... the papacy.

The remaining kingdoms went on to become the European nations. It is interesting to note that men have tried to unite Europe for hundreds of years through marriage, wars, and laws and have all have failed miserably.

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." (Dan*2:43*KJV)


The Papacy = the little horn.

eye's like a man = the desires and temptations of sinful man.
The devil tempted our Lord by showing him the whole world and saying he could have everything in it if Jesus would bow down and worship him (Matt 4:8-10). It is also interesting that when the devil tempted Eve in the garden she saw the fruit was pleasant to the eyes (Gen 3:1-6). Our Lord Jesus states:

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
(Mat*5:29*KJV)

The papacy seeks and claims universal dominion over not just all churches but over all men. The papacy also cloaks its clergy in purple & crimson and crowns the pope with a golden crown studded with pearls and gems (Rev. 17:4). The true church is not one who lust after riches of this world. It is also a well known fact that many popes have had multiple concubines and many illegitimate children. Pope Alexander VI even used his bastard son Cesare Borgia as the false image of Christ.


look familiar?

Mouth speaking great things = Blasphemy. In the bible the pharisees charged Christ with blasphemy for claiming to have the power to forgive sins and stating He was God. The pope takes the title vicar of Christ which means one serving as a substitute. The pope claims to be God on earth. The pope also claims the ability to forgive sins and claims to be infallible.

Seeks to change times and laws = "The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." -Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap.
Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary.

"Sunday is our mark of authority... the church is above the bible, & the transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact" - Catholic Record Sept 1, 1923


The little horn of Daniel 7 is depicted as the whore of Babylon in Revelations. In prophecy a woman represents a church this is why Christ is referred to as the bridegroom. The true church is HIS bride. Well the devil also has his bride (church)... the whore of Babylon. Jesus warned that false prophets would come in his name and would mislead many.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
(Mat*7:16-23*KJV)

Is it just coincidence that the papacy has used an image of a woman holding a cup?
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:" (Rev*17:4*KJV)


I could go on and on and on with this information.

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." (2Th*2:7*KJV)

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Rev*18:4*KJV)

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART ONE.

Re: Visions of Daniel
Cept One quote.
“Wow lot of info in this thread... unfortunately i disagree with a lot of it.
The 4 beast of Dan 7 are clearly Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, & Rome.
Each empire conquering its predecessor.

Capitals used for emphasis only.
Nowhere in the Bible, does it say that the lion is Babylon, or that the bear is Medo/Persia, or the leopard is Alexander, that also applies to the 4th beast supposedly being Rome.

Daniel chapter two, verses forty one to forty five, speaks of a time span period as concerning the ‘feet of iron and Potter’s clay,’ a last time span period on a statue to which I refer to as ‘the Metal Empire Time Span Statue,’ where at its feet, God sets up His everlasting kingdom during the time of four beast kings existing at that specific time called ‘the time of the end,’ a duration of 2300 evening morning or 2300 days.

Please note, that THE FOUR BEASTS HAVE ONLY ONE KINGDOM! This kingdom is a ‘DIVIDED KINGDOM,’ to which they are a part.
They are not representatative of past kingdoms but only of ONE LAST DIVIDED KINGDOM within ‘the time of the end’ a 2300 day time span.

Daniel 2: 41. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, THE KINGDOM shall be divided; BUT THERE SHALL BE IN IT of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 2: 42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so THE KINGDOM shall be partly strong, and partly BROKEN. (or brittle)

Daniel 2: 43. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but THEY SHALL NOT CLEAVE ONE TO ANOTHER, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Daniel 2: 44. ‘And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER.’

We are told that the lion, bear, leopard, and 4th beast, in Daniel 7: 4 – 7. are kings and during their time, God will set up His everlasting kingdom. Confirming Daniel 2: 44. above last verse, within the following verses. Proving that the four beasts are around at ‘THE TIME OF THE END’ and not earlier.

Daniel 7: 17. These GREAT BEASTS, WHICH ARE FOUR, are FOUR KINGS, which SHALL ARISE OUT OF THE EARTH.

Cept One quote.
You cannot ignore the historical evidence and push the third & forth beast into the future.

The following scriptures will prove that these beasts are around when God sets up His kingdom.
The Saints will take the kingdom from the four beasts’ and Satan the little horn, during their reign. It is the Bible that pushes the beasts into the future, not me as you incorrectly suggest. I just read what the Bible states in verse 17 and 18. following. I will repeat verse 17 to keep them close.

Daniel 7: 17. “These GREAT BEASTS, WHICH ARE FOUR, are FOUR KINGS, which SHALL ARISE OUT OF THE EARTH.”

Daniel 7: 18. “BUT THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL TAKE THE KINGDOM, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for EVER AND EVER.”

The above event is repeated whereupon the the Ancient of days gives the judgment in favour of the Saints who posses the KINGDOM at the time of the four beasts and little horn.

Daniel 7: 21. I beheld, and THE SAME HORN made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7: 22. UNTIL THE ANCIENT OF DAYS CAME, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and THE TIME CAME THAT THE SAINTS POSSESSED THE KINGDOM.

Again, the above event is mentioned, in verse 27 following a third time about ONE KINGDOM, that the lion, bear, leopard and fourth beast and little horn are involved with, AT THE SAME TIME of A DIVIDED KINGDOM that they will lose at ‘the time of the end’ period, within which a FORTY TWO MONTH period of the feet of iron and Potter’s clay exists.

Daniel 7: 27. And THE KINGDOM and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The time span of the last Divided kingdom is only for forty two months. It is obvious that the lion, bear, leopard and 4th beast are joined together.

Revelation 13. 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 13. 2. And THE BEAST which I saw was like unto A LEOPARD, and his feet were as of A BEAR, and his mouth as the mouth of A LION: and THE DRAGON gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13. 3. And I saw ONE OF HIS HEADS AS IT WERE WOUNDED TO DEATH; and his deadly wound was healed: and ALL THE WORLD wondered after THE BEAST.

Revelation 13. 4. And they worshipped THE DRAGON which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto THE BEAST? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13. 5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue FORTY TWO MONTHS.

Revelation 13. 6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13. 7. And it was given unto him TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and TO OVERCOME THEM: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.

Cept One quote.
“Nor can you throw Daniel 8 into the future.”

You need to understand the time factor from Gabriel himself dear Cept One.

Daniel 8: 17. So HE CAME NEAR WHERE I STOOD: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but HE SAID UNTO ME, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I WILL MAKE THEE KNOW WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.

Daniel 11: 30. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and HAVE INDIGNATION AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them THAT FORSAKE THE HOLY COVENANT.

Daniel 11: 31. And ARM SHALL STAND ON HIS PART, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY, and THEY SHALL PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

Cept One quote.
"Concerning the two monarchies of Persia and Greece, v. 20-22. The ram signified the succession of the kings of Media and Persia; the rough goat signified the kings of Greece; the great horn was Alexander; the four horns that rose in his room were the four kingdoms into which his conquests were cantoned, of which before, v. 8. They are said to stand up out of the nations, but not in his power; none of them ever made the figure that Alexander did." (Matthew Henry Notes) Unquote.

Now you quote Daniel 8 as concerning past historic empires?
However, I thank God, for the scriptures because we are told that the vision concerns ‘THE TIME OF THE END’ according to Gabriel, in verse 17 and that the indignation concerns the ‘LAST END’ in verse 19. a time factor that is way past any of the ancient time spans of past empires or their leaders or their historic events. God did not return and give the kingdom to the Saints during any of the four past empires or their leader’s time spans.

The four beasts are around at the same time, TOGETHER when God, sets up His Everlasting Kimgdom as proven within the above verses.

Alexander attackd the Medo/Persians on the Arbella Plains, a whopping 1000 kilometers away from the stipulated biblical geographic location within the vision, which is by the Ulai river, within the the province of Elam, where the battle takes place. That is why Daniel, was taken to that place in the vison.

Daniel 8: 2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

Unfortunately for your SDA historic application, dear Brother Cept One, Gabriel names the specific ‘time of the end’ period concerning events within the vision. Alexander of Greece, and his empire were at the brass thighs, 331 BC to 168 BC and the succession of kings of the ancient empire of the Medo/Persians, existed at the shoulders, chest and arms, 539 BC – 331 BC on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue, of Daniel 2. way before the vision’s specific ‘TIME OF THE END’ time span, which is only 2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning, a duration of only six and a part years.

That same ereb/evening, boqer/morning term was used for each day of creation week. See Geneses 1: 1 – 31. 2: 1. Therefore cannot mean years as the SDA church teaches, which is counter to Revelation 22: 18, 19.

Bible backup.
Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be THE VISION concerning the daily and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED DAYS; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Cept one quote.
4. The little horn of Dan. 7 (papacy) cannot be the little horn of Dan. 8 (Antiochus) as they arise out of different empires. Unquote.

The little horn of Daniel chapter 7 rises after the LION, verse 4. BEAR, verse 5. LEOPARD, verse 6. FOURTH BEAST, verse 7. Then rises the LITTLE HORN in verse 8. The little horn is not the papacy.

The same sequence of the four 'notables' rising, four beasts followed by the LITTLE HORN is mentioned again in Daniel 8: 9.

May I remind you of the specific TIME OF these eventswithin chapter 7 and 8.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.
So the TIME of the vision is way after Alexander the great therefore as a result, ‘the goat ‘from the far West cannot be Alexander, IMHO.

Daniel 8: 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth a LITTLE HORN, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and IT CAST DOWN SOME OF THE HOST AND OF THE STARS TO THE GROUND, and stamped upon them.

Who is the LITTLE HORN according to the Bible? The little horn is Satan. NOT THE PAPACY.

My Bible backup.
Revelation 12: 1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12: 2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12: 3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold A GREAT RED DRAGON, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12: 4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and THE DRAGON stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12: 5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The red dragon is Lucifer the Devil/Satan. See verse 9.
After reading the Bible on this subject I must respectfully reject your following assumptions.

Cept one, quote.
The forth beast of Dan 7 (Rome) is also the beast that comes out of the sea in Rev. 13.
Daniel clearly had trouble defining this beast in his vision, but John's beast has attributes of all of the beast in Daniels vision. This is made even clearer in Rev. 17:9
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (Rev 17:9 KJV)
Rome is known as the city of seven hills. While Vatican City is outside the old city walls, St. John's Basilica the ecclesiastical seat of the pope is located on Caelian Hill.
So now that we have established Rome as the forth beast and beast out of the sea, we need to identify the 10 horns/kingdoms & little horn. Well history shows us that 10 kingdoms arose out of the Roman empire the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Alamanni, Anglo-Saxons, Heruli, Lombards, & Burgundians.

Bible backup concerning the beast.
Geneses 3: 15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; IT WILL BRUISE THY HEAD, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

There were no other human beings at that time of Geneses 3: 1 to 15 upon the Earth except for Adam and Eve, not even a pope. The beast is a fallen angel. He is the same beast as in Daniel 7: 7. It is the 4th beast, not Satan, that will receive the mortal wound to his head, mentioned in Revelation chapter 13. it was the serpent beast that was in the garden of Eden.

Revelation 13: 3. And I saw ONE OF HIS HEADS AS IT WERE WAS WOUNDED TO DEATH; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Deadly wounds do not heal on mortals.

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART TWO

Cept One.quote
The Heruli (493 ad), Vandals (534 ad), & Ostrogoth's (554ad) were totally wiped out as a new power was emerging within Rome... the papacy.
The remaining kingdoms went on to become the European nations. It is interesting to note that men have tried to unite Europe for hundreds of years through marriage, wars, and laws and have all have failed miserably.

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." (Dan*2:43*KJV) Unquote.

What a shame that you do not quote verse 44 of Daniel chapter 2. which puts your following idea out of the prophetic vision’s TIME OF and TIME SPAN picture.

God did not set up His kingdom on Earth during the times of any leaders from ancient kingdoms. Yet you seem to drag leaders from their time, such as that of the silver shoulders, arms and chest, along with the brass thighs on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel chapter two, into ‘the time of the end’ 2300 ereb boqer, where ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay,’ period exists a period of only 42 months, into a vision concerned with a much later time and kingdom. Daniel 7 is the overvew of that 2300 evening morning time span, within which the 42 months of the 4th beast’s Divided Kingdom belongs. Yet you insist on dragging and ramming dead leaders from extinct empires into it.

Cept One
quote “The Heruli (493 ad), Vandals (534 ad), & Ostrogoth's (554ad) were totally wiped out as a new power was emerging within Rome... the papacy.”

The vision concerns ‘the time of the end’ not 554 – 493 AD.

Daniel 2: 44. AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART THREE.

Cept One, quote.
The Papacy = the little horn.
eye's like a man = the desires and temptations of sinful man.
The devil tempted our Lord by showing him the whole world and saying he could have everything in it if Jesus would bow down and worship him (Matt 4:8-10). It is also interesting that when the devil tempted Eve in the garden she saw the fruit was pleasant to the eyes (Gen 3:1-6). Our Lord Jesus states: Unquote.

Where in Geneses 3: 1 to 15 does it say ‘Satan’ or the ‘Devil tempted Eve?’ It says the ‘serpent’ and describes him.
Satan will not receive a mortal wound, however the serpent beast that tempted Eve in the garden of Eden will.

Geneses 3: 15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall BRUISE THY HEAD, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The little horn is Satan, not the papacy.

Daniel 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth A LITTLE HORN, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and IT CAST DOWN some of the host and OF THE STARS TO THE GROUND, and stamped upon them.

Here is where the same feit, at the time of baby Jesus, is mentioned again and the instigator is named as ‘a great red dragon,’ which is Satan.

Revelation 12: 1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 12: 2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12: 3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold A GREAT RED DRAGON, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 12: 4. And HIS TAIL DREW THE THIRD PART OF THE STARS OF HEAVEN, AND DID CAST THEM TO THE EARTH: and THE DRAGON stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12: 5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The biblical example above, with the greatest of respect to your good self Cept One, demonstrates that your following hypothasis is non biblically based.

Cept One, quote.
The papacy seeks and claims universal dominion over not just all churches but over all men. The papacy also cloaks its clergy in purple & crimson and crowns the pope with a golden crown studded with pearls and gems (Rev. 17:4). The true church is not one who lust after riches of this world. It is also a well known fact that many popes have had multiple concubines and many illegitimate children. Pope Alexander VI even used his bastard son Cesare Borgia as the false image of Christ.Unquote.

The woman of Revelation 17 is about Jerusalem and Israel, IMHO.

Revelation 17: 4. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

The woman according to Ezekiel 16: 1 to 63 is also about Israel.

It is GOD, through Ezekiel 16. that states that the harlot is Jerusalem and the nation of Israel, read it before saying anything further about the Roman Catholic church, supposedly being the woman of Revelation 17.

Cept One, quote.
CESARE BORGIAS picture
look familiar?
Mouth speaking great things = Blasphemy. In the bible the pharisees charged Christ with blasphemy for claiming to have the power to forgive sins and stating He was God. The pope takes the title vicar of Christ which means one serving as a substitute. The pope claims to be God on earth. The pope also claims the ability to forgive sins and claims to be infallible.
Seeks to change times and laws = "The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." -Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap.
Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary.
"Sunday is our mark of authority... the church is above the bible, & the transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact" - Catholic Record Sept 1, 1923
The little horn of Daniel 7 is depicted as the whore of Babylon in Revelations. In prophecy a woman represents a church this is why Christ is referred to as the bridegroom. The true church is HIS bride. Well the devil also has his bride (church)... the whore of Babylon. Jesus warned that false prophets would come in his name and would mislead many.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
(Mat*7:16-23*KJV)

Is it just coincidence that the papacy has used an image of a woman holding a cup?
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:" (Rev*17:4*KJV)
I could go on and on and on with this information.

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." (2Th*2:7*KJV)

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Rev*18:4*KJV) Unquote.

Jews would not cry or cast dust on their heads Cept One, over the city of Rome, but would over Jerusalem.

Revelation 18: 19. And they CAST DUST ON THEIR HEADS, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Revelation 18: 20. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS; for God hath avenged you on her.

Revelation 18: 24 And IN HER WAS FOUND THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS, and OF SAINTS, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Dear Brother Cept One, I am forced to quote Ezekiel 16. 1 to 63 and I would like you dear Brother in Jesus, to read what sayeth the scriptures rather than quoting church statements. I do appologies to others for this long biblical reply, but I feel it necesary.
It is not wrong to question any church, when it is not in harmony with the authority of the Bible.

Ezekiel 16: 1. Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2. Son of man, cause JERUSALEM TO KNOW HER ABOMINATIONS,

Ezekiel 16: 3.And say, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD UNTO JERUSALEM; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

Abraham was an Amorite and Sarah was an Hittite.
Ezekiel 16: 4. And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART FOUR

Ezekiel 16: 5. None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

Ezekiel 16: 6. And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
Ezekiel 16: 7. I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

Ezekiel 16: 8. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and ENTERED INTO A COVENANT WITH THEE, saith the LORD GOD, and THOU BECAMEST MINE.
Ezekiel 16: 9. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I thoroughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. 10. I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers’ skin, and I GIRDED THEE ABOUT WITH FINE LINEN, and I COVERED THEE WITH SILK.

Ezekiel 16: 11. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I PUT BRACELETS UPON THY HANDS, AND A CHAIN ON THY NECK.
Ezekiel 16: 12. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

Ezekiel 16: 13. Thus WAST THOU DECKED WITH GOLD AND SILVER; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and THOU WAST EXCEEDINGLY BEAUTIFUL, and THOU DIDST PROSPER INTO A KINGDOM.

Ezekiel 16: 14. And THY RENOWN WENT FORTH AMONG THE HEATHEN FOR THY BEAUTY: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 16: 15. But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and PLAYEST THE HARLOT because of thy renown, and POUREDST THY FORNICATIONS ON EVERY ONE THAT PASSED BY; his it was.
Ezekiel 16: 16. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with DIVERSE COLOURS, and PLAYEDST THE HARLOT thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

Ezekiel 16: 17. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
Ezekiel 16: 18. And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

Ezekiel 16: 19. My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 16: 20. Moreover thou hast taken thy SONS AND DAUGHTERS, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, 21. That thou hast SLAIN MY CHILDREN, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

Matthew 23: 36. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23: 37. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 23: 38. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Ezekiel 16: 22. And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when
thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

Ezekiel 16: 23. And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 16: 24. That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street.

Ezekiel 16: 25. Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

Ezekiel 16: 26. THOU HAST ALSO COMMITTED FORNICATION with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.
Ezekiel 16: 27. Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.

Ezekiel 16: 28. THOU HAST PLAYED THE WHORE also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, THOU HAST PLAYED THE HARLOT with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
Ezekiel 16: 29. Thou hast moreover multiplied THY FORNICATION IN THE LAND OF CANAAN unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Ezekiel 16: 30. How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of AN IMPERIOUS WHORISH WOMAN; Ezekiel 16: 31. In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
Ezekiel 16: 32. But as A WIFE THAT COMMITTETH ADULTERY, which TAKETH STRANGERS INSTEAD OF HER HUSBAND!

Ezekiel 16: 33. They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.
Ezekiel 16: 34. And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

Ezekiel 16: 35. Wherefore, O HARLOT, hear the word of the LORD:
Ezekiel 16: 36. Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and WITH ALL THE IDOLS OF THY ABOMINATION, AND BY THE BLOOD OF THY CHILDREN, which thou didst give unto them;

Ezekiel 16: 36. Behold, therefore I WILL GATHER ALL THY LOVERS, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I WILL GATHER THEM AROUND ABOUT AGAINST THEE, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

Ezekiel 16: 37. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

Ezekiel 16: 39. I WILL GIVE THEE INTO THEIR HAND, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.
Ezekiel 16: 40. They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

Ezekiel 16: 41. And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

Match with Zechariah. Around the same ‘time of the end.’

Zechariah 14: 1: Behold, THE DAY OF THE LORD COMETH, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14: 1. For I WILL GATHER ALL NATIONS AGAINST JERUSALEM TO BATTLE; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Ezekiel 16: 42. SO WILL I MAKE MY FURY TOWARD THEE TO REST, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

Ezekiel 16: 43. Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.

Ezekiel 16: 44. Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART FIVE.

Ezekiel 16: 45. Thou art thy mother’s daughter, that LOTHETH HER HUSBAND AND HER CHILDREN; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
Ezekiel 16: 46. And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
Ezekiel 16: 47. Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their ABOMINATIONS: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways. Ezekiel 16: 48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. Ezekiel 16: 49. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Ezekiel 16: 50. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw.

Ezekiel 16: 51. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
Ezekiel 16: 52. Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

Ezekiel 16: 53. When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: Ezekiel 16: 54. That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. Ezekiel 16: 55. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Ezekiel 16: 56. For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride, Ezekiel 16: 57. Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of SYRIA, AND ALL that are ROUND ABOUT HER, the daughters of the Philistines, WHICH DESPISE THEE ROUND ABOUT.

Ezekiel 16: 58. Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.
Ezekiel 16: 59. For thus saith the Lord GOD; I WILL EVEN DEAL WITH THEE AS THOU HAST DONE, which hast despised the OATH IN BREAKING THE COVENANT.

Ezekiel 16: 60. Nevertheless I WILL REMEMBER MY COVENANT WITH THEE in the days of thy youth, and I WILL ESTABLISH UNTO THEE AN EVERLASTING COVENANT.

Ezekiel 16: 61. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.

Ezekiel 16: 62. And I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH THEE; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:

Ezekiel 16: 63. That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I AM PACIFIED TOWARD THEE for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.


Zechariah 14: 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and FIGHT AGAINST THOSE NATIONS, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14: 4. And HIS FEET SHALL STAND IN THAT DAY upon THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall CLEAVE IN THE MIDST THEREOF toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.

Zechariah 14: And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14: 7. But IT SHALL BE ONE DAY which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14: 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14: 9. And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: IN THAT DAY shall there be ONE LORD, AND HIS NAME ONE.

It is this same day that is mentioned in Joel chapter 2: when the great battle of Armageddon takes place from Mount Zion.

This is also mentioned, in Revelation 19 when after the wedding supper of Revelation 1 to 10. the preparations for battle begin and where God’s great army returns to Earth on that same day to fight against the beast and his earthly army.

Revelation 19: 20. And THE BEAST was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19: 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Daniel 7: 27. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Revelation 7: 28. HITHERTO is THE END OF THE MATTER. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

[Buddy]

Response to the OP

I agree that Syrio/Babylonia was the northern kingdom at the end of Alexander's Asian Empire .... a division of the same

Antiochus IV was the last king of this northern divide in the visions [Daniel 11:21-35]

This same northern region will produce the future little horn who will form the 4th kingdom of iron and clay at the time of the end .... at the appointed time still pending today [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-24; 8:23-25]

The visions move from Antiochus IV directly to the little horn's rising at the time of the end [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7]

Rome is not a part of this vision

At the end of the rule of Syrio/Babylonia there was also the southern division of the breaking of Alexander's Asian Empire .... Egyptian

.... these are represented by the bronze thighs of Daniel's image and are designated in chapter 11 as the kingdom of the north and the kingdom of the south

Rome was neither of these .... and Rome did not start out as two rival kingdoms in the Middle east as some would have it

These two rival kingdoms will develop again, one north and one south of Jerusalem, at the coming time of the end [the two legs of Iron]

And it is the little horn of the northern kingdom that will defeat the ruler of the southern divide in his quest to dominate the Middle East

.... Antiochus IV was never able to subdue the southern kingdom .... but the little horn will do this at the time of the end [Daniel 11:40]

It is this same northern king who will also invade Israel during the coming 70th week decreed [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38:7-17; Daniel 11:41; Joel 2:20; Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-24; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

The same populations of the Muslim Middle East exist today [Babylonians, Assyrians, Medes, Persians, Turks; etc.] and they are dominated by political rivals who remain divided except for a common religion .... and a specific hatred for Israel

A distinct divide will develop between these Islamic rivals, north and south, in the same region

And it will be the little horn who will ultimately gain the following of both, but only after he conquers his political rivals

His campaign to rule the Middle East with the objective to dominate the earth is defined in the following visions [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 11:36-44; 12:7; Revelation 13:1-4]

[Cept One]

I am not SDA!
The historicist view of eschatology predates the SDA church by hundreds of years at least and at it's earliest origins predate the SDA church by more than 1000yrs. Historicism is the Protestant view held by every member of the reformation. It is the only view of eschatology that follows scripture.

PART ONE.
Nowhere in the Bible, does it say that the lion is Babylon, or that the bear is Medo/Persia, or the leopard is Alexander, that also applies to the 4th beast supposedly being Rome.

Daniel's vision of the 4 beast in chapter 7 parallels Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the statue in chapter 2. In fact each of the vision's of Daniel build upon each other to give us a clearer and clearer view of what must come to pass. The statue is split into 4 sections which are identified as kingdoms/empires. The four empires are diverse from one another with clear divisions of the metals used to depict them. We are given identifying characteristics of all of these empires.

Head of Gold = Babylon
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. (Dan 2:38 KJV)

We are then told there will be 3 subsequent Kingdoms. It is important to note that each of these kingdoms arise one after another and there is no information given that places a gap in between any of these kingdoms.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
(Dan 2:39-40 KJV)

Chest & Arms of Silver = Medo-Persia
PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. (Dan*5:28*KJV)

What is interesting here is the words used in the verse to describe the Medo-Persian empire (Maday & Parac) are the same words used in chapter 8 to identify the Ram... you cannot throw chapter 8 into the future without totally disregarding the scriptural evidence.

The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. (Dan*8:20*KJV)

Belly & Thighs of Brass = Greece

Daniel chapter two, verses forty one to forty five, speaks of a time span period as concerning the ‘feet of iron and Potter’s clay,’ a last time span period on a statue to which I refer to as ‘the Metal Empire Time Span Statue,’ where at its feet, God sets up His everlasting kingdom during the time of four beast kings existing at that specific time called ‘the time of the end,’ a duration of 2300 evening morning or 2300 days.

Please note, that THE FOUR BEASTS HAVE ONLY ONE KINGDOM! This kingdom is a ‘DIVIDED KINGDOM,’ to which they are a part.
They are not representatative of past kingdoms but only of ONE LAST DIVIDED KINGDOM within ‘the time of the end’ a 2300 day time span.

There is nothing in the bible that indicates that this last empire is split into 4 kingdoms or that the 4 beast are to rule at the same time. Daniel writes that the 4 beast are diverse one from another and that the 4th beast is the 4th kingdom.

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. (Dan*7:23*KJV)

How can this 4th beast devour the whole earth if there are 3 other empires ruling at the same time?

The 2300 days prophecy refers to the 6+ years the temple was defiled during Antiochus Epiphanes persecution of the Jews. This view completely goes against SDA ideology... again i am not SDA. The repeated references to me being SDA throughout your post is really uncalled for and comes off condescending.

"The time of the end" in context of chapter 8 is not speaking of the end of time (Armageddon), it refers to "the end of indignation" (Dan 8:19). This is unmistakable when you read verses 13 & 14.

Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
(Dan*8:13-14*KJV)

Daniel 2: 41. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, THE KINGDOM shall be divided; BUT THERE SHALL BE IN IT of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 2: 42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so THE KINGDOM shall be partly strong, and partly BROKEN. (or brittle)

Daniel 2: 43. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but THEY SHALL NOT CLEAVE ONE TO ANOTHER, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

This is about as clear of a depiction of Europe as you can get. For centuries the kingdoms of Europe have tried to unite into one single entity thru marriage, war, and legalese... nothing has been effective in truly unifying them.

The following scriptures will prove that these beasts are around when God sets up His kingdom.
The Saints will take the kingdom from the four beasts’ and Satan the little horn, during their reign. It is the Bible that pushes the beasts into the future, not me as you incorrectly suggest. I just read what the Bible states in verse 17 and 18. following. I will repeat verse 17 to keep them close.

Daniel 7: 17. “These GREAT BEASTS, WHICH ARE FOUR, are FOUR KINGS, which SHALL ARISE OUT OF THE EARTH.”

Daniel 7: 18. “BUT THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL TAKE THE KINGDOM, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for EVER AND EVER.”

The above event is repeated whereupon the the Ancient of days gives the judgment in favour of the Saints who posses the KINGDOM at the time of the four beasts and little horn.

Daniel 7: 21. I beheld, and THE SAME HORN made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7: 22. UNTIL THE ANCIENT OF DAYS CAME, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and THE TIME CAME THAT THE SAINTS POSSESSED THE KINGDOM.

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. (Dan*7:23*KJV)

The time span of the last Divided kingdom is only for forty two months.

only of ONE LAST DIVIDED KINGDOM within ‘the time of the end’ a 2300 day time span

These 2 statements contradict each other... how long is the time of the end? 1260 days or 2300?

Not to mention that most scholars apply the day/year principle to the 42 month prophecy. The day/year principle is not used for the chapter 8 prophecy because we are specifically told that it refers to literal days.

Alexander attackd the Medo-Persians on the Arbella Plains, a whopping 1000 kilometers away from the stipulated biblical geographic location within the vision, which is by the Ulai river, within the the province of Elam, where the battle takes place. That is why Daniel, was taken to that place in the vison.

There is so much wrong with this one statement I am really having a tough time deciding where to start... but i guess i will start with the Arbella Plains... Alexander led a series of campaigns against the Persians over the course of 10 yrs. These campaigns took place in many different locations starting from the west and ending in the east.

The Ulai river is mentioned figuratively and not as a literal location of a battle but as the general location of the Medo Persian empire. Daniel does not say that it is the location of the battle only that he saw the ram standing before the river before it pushes west, north, & south...

And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
(Dan*8:2-4*KJV)

Only after the ram expands its empire to the west, north, & south is the he-goat mentioned...

And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
(Dan*8:5-6*KJV)

Notice that the river is referred to in the past tense. Again the river is used to help identify the ram not the location of a specific battle.

Unfortunately for your SDA historic application, dear Brother Cept One, Gabriel names the specific ‘time of the end’ period concerning events within the vision. Alexander of Greece, and his empire were at the brass thighs, 331 BC to 168 BC and the succession of kings of the ancient empire of the Medo/Persians, existed at the shoulders, chest and arms, 539 BC – 331 BC on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue, of Daniel 2. way before the vision’s specific ‘TIME OF THE END’ time span, which is only 2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning, a duration of only six and a part years.

That same ereb/evening, boqer/morning term was used for each day of creation week. See Geneses 1: 1 – 31. 2: 1. Therefore cannot mean years as the SDA church teaches, which is counter to Revelation 22: 18, 19.

Again I'm not SDA... and the time of the vision is very specific (Dan*8:13-14*KJV) and not about the end of time.

Bible backup.
Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be THE VISION concerning the daily and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED DAYS; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.



The little horn of Daniel chapter 7 rises after the LION, verse 4. BEAR, verse 5. LEOPARD, verse 6. FOURTH BEAST, verse 7. Then rises the LITTLE HORN in verse 8. The little horn is not the papacy.

The same sequence of the four 'notables' rising, four beasts followed by the LITTLE HORN is mentioned again in Daniel 8: 9.

May I remind you of the specific TIME OF these eventswithin chapter 7 and 8.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.
So the TIME of the vision is way after Alexander the great therefore as a result, ‘the goat ‘from the far West cannot be Alexander, IMHO.

Daniel 8: 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth a LITTLE HORN, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and IT CAST DOWN SOME OF THE HOST AND OF THE STARS TO THE GROUND, and stamped upon them.

Who is the LITTLE HORN according to the Bible? The little horn is Satan. NOT THE PAPACY.

The little horn of chapter 8 is not Satan... The little horn is a king that persecutes the saints, desecrates the temple and causes the daily sacrifice to end for a little over six years. This can only have happened in the past for one major reason... JESUS. After the crucifixion the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom. The temple sacrifices were a symbolic precursor to Jesus The Lamb of God and His perfect sacrifice for our sins. The crucifixion and resurrection have rendered the physical temple with all its rituals and sacrifices useless. Jesus has ended the daily sacrifices forever.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1Co*3:16*KJV)


By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
(Heb*10:10-14*KJV)

My Bible backup.
Revelation 12: 1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This woman is the Church first in the form of Israel (Rev 12:2) and now in the form of the Christian church (Rev 12:5).

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2Co*11:2*KJV)

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev*19:7-9*KJV)

Revelation 12: 2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12: 3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold A GREAT RED DRAGON, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12: 4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and THE DRAGON stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12: 5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The red dragon is Lucifer the Devil/Satan. See verse 9.
After reading the Bible on this subject I must respectfully reject your following assumptions.

I totally agree that the dragon is Satan... but this 7 headed dragon is also representative of a physical location on this planet and seated on this location is a whore representing Satan's church.


And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (Rev*17:9*KJV)

This can only represent one of two places... Rome or Israel and all the identifying characteristics point towards Rome.

[Prophecy Countdown]

I have been unable to reply to this thread from Cept One, for quite some time because my PC crashed, it had to be replaced at a cost and like most I had to be patient.

I believe that the BIBLE alone has all authority in these matters following.
Capitals used for emphsis only.

Daniel 8: 16. “And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.”

To understand the vision, Daniel and all of us, need to understand THE TIME OF IT and to make sure that Daniel understood that straight forward fact that the vision was concerned to within ‘THE TIME OF THE END,’ Gabriel went toward Daniel and got really close to him to make sure that he did not miss the TIME OF THE VISION FACTOR. Unfortunately Cept One, that seems not to be the case with your good self.
Why do you not read or understand the words of the angel Gabriel concerning the correct time of the vision?

BIBLE
King James Version.
Daniel 8: 17. “SO HE CAME NEAR TO WHERE I STOOD: AND WHEN HE CAME, I WAS AFRAID, and fell upon my face: but HE SAID UNTO ME, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.”

Contempoary English Version.
Daniel 8: 17. “Gabriel came over, and I fell to the ground in fear. Then he said, “You are merely a human, but YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS VISION IS ABOUT THE END OF TIME.”

New King James Version.
Daniel 8: 17. “So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

The New Living Translation
Daniel 8: 17. “As Gabriel approached the place where I was standing, I became so terrified that I fell to the ground. “Son of man,” he said, “YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THE EVENTS YOU HAVE SEEN IN YOUR VISION RELATE TO THE TIME OF THE END.”

Why is it Cept One, that Gabriel makes it absolutely clear about the TIME OF the vision and of course the events concerning the beasts within that specific time span, that are around at its ‘TIME OF THE END’ period, which eliminates events and persons, within other earlier time spans outside that specific ‘time of the end,’ period a 2300 ‘ereb boqer vision’s’ time span from that ‘evening morning vision.’ Yet you say the beasts within the vision’s ‘time of the end period’ are pointing back into ancient historic empires and their kings then try to bring in Antiochus Epiphanes, who died in 164 BC? Therefore Antiocus can’t be the little horn, I will explain that fact later.

Cept One quote.
“Daniel's vision of the 4 beast in chapter 7 parallels Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the statue in chapter 2.”Unquote.

If you are suggesting that the lion, bear, leopard and fourth beast of Daniel 7: 4 – 7 concern past empirse of Daniel 2 Then you would be wrong, because those beasts are around at ‘the time of the end’ together, which leads into the time of the feet of iron and Potter’s clay period, see Daniel 2: 41 to 45 of only 42 months see Rev 13.

There is no doubt that Daniel’s vision, chapter seven, concerns ‘THE TIME OF THE END.’
The vision given to king Nebuchednazzar begins with his Babylonian Empire through the Medo/Persians, Greek and Roman Empires, then we have a future ‘kingdom divided’ at the feet of iron and Potter’s clay period.
Jesus, did not bring in His everlasting kingdom during any of the four Ancient Empires, or their leaders, howver He does during the four beasts of Daniel chapter 7, which puts your suggestion that these beasts are supposedly ‘representative of past ancient empires’ outside biblical context.

Four historic Empires were foretold in Nebuchednazzar’s dream. The rose and fell at the end of their allotted metal time spans on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue, of Daniel 2, then there will be a last kingdom at ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ period which is yet to rise whereupon God, at the end of the duration of that kingdom’s 42 months will set up His Everlasting Kingdom. It is within that ‘kingdom divided’ at ‘the time of the end’ that the four beast kings join within the 4th beast’s kingdom, see Revelation 13 for biblical backup.

1st Babylonian Empire, king Nebuchednazzar, head of gold. 605 BC – 539 BC.

2nd Medo/Persian Empire. 539 BC – 331 BC.

3rd Greek Empire. 331 BC – 168 BC

4th Roman Empire. 168 BC – 476 AD.

The above ancient Empires have now departed into historic oblivion, the next kingdom, named after the 4th beast kingdom will rise at ‘the appointed time,’

The 5th will rise at ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ period, at the end of which, God will set up His ‘everlasting kingdom’ as stated in Daniel 7: verses 14, 17, 18, 22, 27.

Daniel 2: 41. And whereas thou sawest THE FEET and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 2: 44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
AT THE TIME OF THE END.
FOUR BEASTS, WILL BE AROUND TOGETHER WHEN GOD SETS UP HIS KINGDOM.

1st BEAST.
Daniel 7: 4. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

2nd BEAST.
Daniel 7: 5. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

3rd BEAST.
Daniel 7: 6. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

4th BEAST
Daniel 7: 7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Within Daniel 7 the last beast kingdom to rise, is named after the ‘FOURTH BEAST’ that will rise last after the 1st being the lion, the 2nd being the bear, then the 3rd being the leopard, then the 4th beast, in verse 7.
They are all around TOGETHER unlike the past empires each within their allotted metal empire time spans from the shortest Babylon, to the last and longest Roman Empire, all had much longer time periods than the last ‘kingdom divided’ of only 42 months according to Revelation 13.

At what time are the four king beasts around TOGETHER Cept One? A little before and untill the completion of 42 months, at which time God, sets up His everlasting kingdom. How anyone can think that the lion, living through ‘THE TIME OF THE END’ supposedly ‘represents Babylon’ that existed at the time of the ‘HEAD OF GOLD’ would be laughable if it weren’t so misleading.

To top that off we have the theory that the 4th beast, existing at THE FEET OF IRON AND POTTER’S CLAY supposedly represents the Roman Empire existing during the LEGS OF IRON or the church of Rome cannot be substatiated biblically.

Babylon and the Roman empires were separated by Greece, existing at the time span of the BRASS THIGHS for some 208 years and the Medo/Persian Empire, at the time of the ‘SILVER CHEST, SHOULDERS AND ARMS’ period, being separated from the Roman Empire for some 163 years. Yet you suggest these beasts are supposedly representative of those ancient empires? That to my mind is an application, a hand me down construct without biblical support. IMHO.

Bringing them all together Cept One, within the ‘TIME OF THE END’ period of only 2300 ereb boqer, within which the beast kings join in together within the 4th beast’s kingdom of only 42 months during the ‘FEET OF IRON AND POTTER’S CLAY,’ period when God, is to set up His kingdom, I find that theory strange that they supposedly represent all those past empires?

Daniel 7: 17. “THESE FOUR GREAT BEASTS, which are four, are FOUR KINGS, which shall arise out of the earth.”

During the time of all these beasts God sets up His kingdom.

Daniel 7: 18. “But THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL TAKE THE KINGDOM, AND POSSES THE KINGDOM for ever, even for ever and ever.”

THE TIME FACTOR.

The 4th beast kingdom, that will exist at ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ period, cannot be the 4th Roman Empire of 168 BC – 476 AD that existed at the legs of iron period. And this fact goes for the rest of the beast kings, within Daniel 7, they cannot fit or exist outside the time of the 2300 ereb boqer period.
The time span factor on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel 2 will not allow for it. We are told, in Daniel chapter seven, verses 17 and 18 that the Saints will posses the everlasting kingdom, that did not happen during the times of the ancient empires so why would you mistakenly think that these beasts are representational of ancient leaders living during earlier time spans, way back from ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ period? That historic theory makes no biblical sense, according to the TIME OF EVENT principles given to king Nebuchadnezzar, by God.

The fact that the fourth beast is mentioned during these beast kings during their presence should open our eyes to the time involved.

There is more that Daniel, wanted to know about ‘THE FOURTH BEAST,’ Daniel did NOT mention the FOURTH EMPIRE, there is this histricist’s confusion that has persisted by the teaching of men rather than reading the scriptures, ‘for hundreds of years’according to you and others an example of this is found within the following verses which histiricists simply ignore in place of a theory.

Daniel 7: 16. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Daniel 7: 17. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Daniel 7: 18. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

The fourth beast kingdom is around at the feet of iron and Potter’s clay period when God, sets up His everlasting kingdom. That was not the case with the fourth Roman empire at the different time of the legs of iron, so the FOURTH BEAST is NOT representative of the ROMAN EMPIRE.

Daniel 7: 19. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

Daniel was not asking about the Roman Empire, he was asking about the ‘FOURTH BEAST.’ Nowhere does the Bible say that the fourth beast represents the Roman Empire, you seem confused Cept One, by bringing the two together.

Daniel 7: 7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel was asking about the fourth beast not the fourth Roman Empire.

Daniel 7: 19. Then I would know the truth of the FOURTH BEAST, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

Daniel 7: 20. And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

During the time of the fourth beast kingdom, God will set up His everlasting kingdom.

Daniel 7: 21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7: 22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

This is about the fourth beast kingdom and certainly not about, the done away with Roman empire that lost power in 476 AD. Did God set up His everlasting kingdom here on Earth During that time span of 168 BC – 476?
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the 4th beast is representational of the Roman Empire or the church of Rome, as some try to suppose. If the Bible says that, then give everyone reading this thread the verse or verses that clearly state that the fourth beast suposedly represents the Roman Empire or church of Rome, by the way, spouting about ‘seven hills’ won’t do it either.

There are three beast kingdoms during the time of the 2300 ereb boqer vision that of the lion, bear, and leopard, then the FOURTH BEAST rises and he gets the kingdom named after him ie the fourth beast kingdom, Beast one the Lion, beast two the bear, beast three the leopard and beast four most terrible.

Daniel 7: 23. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Daniel 7: 25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 7: 26. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Daniel 7: 27. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28. Hitherto is the end of the matter….

That is as biblically plain as it gets about the events therefore time factor involved. Why all this confusion by historicists exists is because they make assumptions without biblical backup.

Cept One
We are then told there will be 3 subsequent Kingdoms. It is important to note that each of these kingdoms arise one after another and there is no information given that places a gap in between any of these kingdoms.

The four beasts and little horn, that are AROUND TOGETHER, are the kings that are mentioned in Daniel 2: 41 – 45. Daniel chapter 7: 4 – 7. Daniel 8: 8 – 9 and Revelation 13: 1 – 18.
The Babylonian Empire was NOT standing with the Roman Empire and neither was the Medo/Persian Empire, standing with the Romans either, nor was the Greek Empire around with the Babylonian Empire. If you think that the lion, bear, leopard and 4th beast, kings along with Satan, in Revelation 13: 1 - 18 standing together, and doing so, in Daniel 7: 4 – 8 and 8: 1 – 8, 9 when Jesus, brings in His everlasting kingdom at the time of ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ period, then you are not in accordance with the scripture’s timing principles placed by GOD on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue, within king Nebuchchadnezzar’s vision.
You have not understood or choose to ignore the ‘TIME OF THE END’ period spoken of by the angel Gabriel in Daniel 8: 16 - 17 concerning the evening morning vision.

We mortals are still waiting for ‘THE TIME OF THE END’S 2300 evening and morning vision time span.

Jesus is yet to bring in HIS everlasting kingdom during the 4th BEAST KINGDOM DIVIDED at the end of the feet of iron and potter’s clay time span on that Statue Time Piece of Daniel 2 at verses 41 - 45 at the time of the 4th BEAST KINGDOM DIVIDED, which IS NOT during the 4th ANCIENT ROMAN EMPIRE, you are confusing two different powers at DIFFERENT TIMES ie the Roman Empire of 168 BC to 476 AD, lasting 644 years with the 4th BEAST KINGDOM DIVIDED at THE ‘TIME OF THE END’ at the ‘FEET OF IRON AND POTTER’S CLAY’ period that lasts for ONLY ‘42 MONTHS,’ at which time GOD will set up His everlasting kingdom. You are ignoring the angel Gabriel in Daniel 8: 17 and God’s words in Daniel 2: 41 – 44.

[Prophecy Countdown]

Cept One
There is nothing in the bible that indicates that this last empire is split into 4 kingdoms or that the 4 beast are to rule at the same time

I did not say quote. “that this last kingdom is split into 4 kingdoms” unquote.
The Bible, says ‘the empire shall be divded.’

Daniel 2: 41. "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, THE KINGDOM SHALL BE DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay."

There are many time span separations concerning the ancient empires, unlike the four beasts which are around together when Jesus sets up His everlasting kingdom.
Babylon and Rome, 371 years apart.
Medo/Persian Empire to Rome, 163 years apart.
Babylon and Greece 208 years apart.
That is nothing like the four beasts rising together and the 4th beast dying before the lion, bear and leopard in Revelation 19: 19 – 21.

As stated there is the 4th BEAST kingdom divided when God, sets up His everlasting kingdom. The Bible does NOT say the fourth Roman Empire at the legs of iron continues under the guise of the Roman Catholic church into the time of ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay.’

From the Roman Empire’s end, in 476 AD to the present time of 2012 AD, thus far, is 1536. years apart and we are still counting and waiting for the day of the Lord and HIS everlasting kingdom within the biblically specified ‘time of the end’ at the end of the 42 months of the 4th beast kingdom divided.

Now the following verse 5. of Revelation 13. says ‘42 months,’ which confirms Daniel 7: 25. about the time aspect of quote ‘a time and times and the dividing of time.’ Unquote. That is expressed as ‘42 months,’ or ‘3 ½ year’ period.

Also the fact that the four beasts are TOGETHER at that specific time of the vision and are NOT succeeding time periods, but are together with each other and are a part of the fourth beast kingdom in Revelation 13 which is, I would say as plain for every reader to see and note the many gaps within Historicist’s thinking. IMHO.

The fourth beast that rises in Daniel 7: 7 does so after the 1st being the Lion, then the 2nd being the Bear, and the 3rd which is the leopard beast, then we have the 4th beast all together leading up to and as one during ‘the time of the end.’

Revelation 13: 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a BEAST RISE UP out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

It is prudent to remember that the leopard is ‘given dominion.’ Daniel 7: 6. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.


That’s why that particular beast is mentioned firstly in, Revelation 13: 2. “And the beast which I saw was LIKE UNTO A LEOPARD, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”

The lion, bear, leopard and 4th beast are working TOGETHER in Revelation 13: 2.

[Prophecy Countdown]

There is no sense to your following suggestion.

Cept One.
There is nothing in the bible that indicates that this last empire is split into 4 kingdoms or that the 4 beast are to rule at the same time. Daniel writes that the 4 beast are diverse one from another and that the 4th beast is the 4th kingdom.
How can this 4th beast devour the whole earth if there are 3 other empires ruling at the same time?

You need to read the following Bible verses that state the opposite to your views dear Cept One.
Here we see, in verse 2. that the beasts are all as one, united together in purpose when the dragon gives the 4th beast his power for only 42 months. Your last statement indicatses to me that you do not understand the TIME OF the evening morning vision, or the identification of the 4th beast.

Revelation 13: 2. And the BEAST which I saw was like unto A LEOPARD, and his feet were as the feet of A BEAR, and his mouth as the MOUTH OF A LION: and THE DRAGON gave HIM his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The beast is a fallen angel and was told that he would receive a deadly wound. Firstly read Geneses 3: verses 1 to 15.
Geneses 3: 15. “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; IT SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

The 4th beast
Revelation 13: 3. “And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.”

Revelation 13: 4. “And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”

Revelation 13: 5. “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty two months.”

Cept One
“Daniel writes that the 4 beast are diverse one from another and that the 4th beast is the 4th kingdom.” Unquote

‘Diverse,’ simply means they were different, various, or a variety of beasts, and yes the 4th beast becomes a kingdom and the same was said of king Nebuchadnezzar when he was told that he was the head of gold. In Daniel 2: 38. “And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.”

Cept One
“What is interesting here is the words used in the verse to describe the Medo-Persian empire (Maday & Parac) are the same words used in chapter 8 to identify the Ram... you cannot throw chapter 8 into the future without totally disregarding the scriptural evidence.”

Dear Cept One, the reason for your error in making the ram connection to the ancient Medo/Persians is because you ignore the time span principles placed on the vision, shown to king Nebuchadnezzar by God, in Daniel 2: 41 – 45. That during the time of these kings God will set up His everlasting kingdom.
The historic view is not the biblical view.
The timing of the fourth beast’s demise makes a mockery of the historical theory that the lion, bear, leopard or 4th beast are supposedly representational of the four ancient empires, whose demise was chronological from the first Babylon through to the last 4th Roman Empire.

The 4th beast is killed first.

The 4th beast is thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed before the lion, bear, and leopard beasts are put to the sword by Him that rides on a horse and His army, in Revelation 19: 19 – 21 which confirms the timing sequence of that event in Daniel 7: 10 – 12.

Now Cept One, that was not the chronological order of the demise of the four ancient empires, which was not in any other sequence than from the 1st then the 2nd then 3rd and finally the 4th it is the fine biblical detailed timing of the four beasts’ demise being non aligned with the ancient empires proves biblically, that the four beasts are NOT representative of the past 4 ancient Empires. Therefore causes the demise of the historicist’s theory. Ipso facto. IMHO.

Was the 4th Roman Empire destroyed before the previous empires, as is the case with the 4th beast being destroyed before the Lion, Bear, and Leopard kings, if they are supposedly representational of past Empires?

Daniel 7: 10. “A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

Daniel 7: 11. “I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.”

Daniel 7: 12. “As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.”

The same prophecy demise of the beast from Daniel 7 is repeated from Revelation 19.

Revelation 19: 19. “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

Revelation 19: 20. “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”

Firstly we have the 4th beast kingdom being destroyed, then the remaining beasts in verse 21 following ie the Lion, Bear, Leopard, ‘the remnant’ being killed a little later at the same time of the end period.
How do you explain away the biblical different sequence of events problem from your historic application, incorrectly supposing the beasts represent past empires therefore their demise, which should match sequentially to that of those four ancient empires?

The orderly sequence of demise of those ancient empires was Babylon, the 1st empire to rise then fall, then the 2nd being Medo/Persia, followed by the 3rd Greece, followed finally by the 4th, the Roman Empire’s demise last. However the lion, bear and leopard associated with the 4th beast’s kingdom (Rev 13) are killed after the 4th beast! Do you understand that you have a TIME and EVENT problem Cep One?

Revelation 19: 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Another glaring problem for you to explain is found in Daniel 8: 17. “So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.”

Cept One.
“The historicist view of eschatology predates the SDA church by hundreds of years at least and at it's earliest origins predate the SDA church by more than 1000yrs.”

What’s in a day or two or a few years or two, the same historic theory is similarly flawed. IMHO.

Cept One.
“Historicism is the Protestant view held by every member of the reformation. It is the only view of eschatology that follows scripture.”

The historic view is unbiblical a mere Erroneous application, it has many forms from partial to full preterism.

Time of the existance of the SDA church has nothing to do with it, their beleifs are very close to your own.
The book of Daniel has been sealed until the TIME OF THE END, which means I don’t pay too much heed to those’ historic theories.’

Daniel 12: 4. But thou, O Daniel, SHUT UP THE WORDS, AND SEAL THE BOOK, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Cept One
“Historicism is the Protestant view held by every member of the reformation.”

No wonder the translators incorrectly translated the name Javan (Strong’s 3120) into Grecia, in Daniel now I know it was done from that preconceived idea of historicism.

Cept One.
The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. (Dan*8:20*KJV)
Belly & Thighs of Brass = Greece
‘throwing chapter 8 into the future without totally disregarding the scriptural evidence,’ unquote

Chapter 8 is in the future according to Gabriel, he was told to make Daniel understand the vision, in verse 16, and mentions the time of the vision concerns the time of the end in verse 18 so for Daniel and all, which includes your good self and myself Cept One, we are told to understand the vision, according to the scriptures we must see, from Gabriel that it is at ‘the time of the end.’ However you keep insisting that it is about the Medo/Persian Empire which means you can’t possibly understand the time of the evening morning vision therefore how can you understand the vision at all?

QUESTION.
Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

RESPONSE.
Daniel 8: So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8: Daniel 8: 17. SO HE CAME NEAR TO WHERE I STOOD: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

Dragging past historic empires and their leaders into ‘THE TIME OF THE END’ a period of only 2300 ereb boqer, according to Daniel 8: 13, 14 is most unwise because it stands against Gabriel’s testimony, on behalf of Jesus about the TIME OF the vision to make possible the understanding of that vision.

Cept One quote.
The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. (Dan*8:20*KJV)

The ram of Daniel 8 is very close to the ‘TIME OF THE END,’ according to verse 17, a 2300 ereb boqer period, according to verse 13, 14. Before and within which belongs the FOUR BEASTS, of Daniel 7: 17 named kings/leaders.
They rise tp power in Daniel chapter 7 verses 4. to 7, then the little horn, in verse 8 follows up.
The same four are spoken of again in Daniel 8: 8 as ‘notables’ after the horn, representing a king/leader/President, is broken on the he goat from the far West ending that leader’s power in verse 8 after which the four notables rise out of the nation of Gentiles, followed by the little horn in verse 9.
The he goat is the USA from the far West, the number one leader of the nation of Gentiles once the presidency folds, after Iran the higher horn on the ram that comes up later is dealt with, Britain the lion will lose his eagles wings ‘Alliance’ partner. Russia, the bear and France, the leopard will stand in America’s place from the nation of Gentiles.

Knowing then, that the vision concerns ‘the time of the end’ I must reject Cept one’s. theory as none biblical, he insists on dragging past Empires or their DEAD kings out of their alloted ancient time spans, on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel 2: into the vision’s ‘time of the end’ period, prophisied in Daniel 2: 41 - 45 fits, which is only 2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning long, (Dan 8: 13-14) within which the last 42 months, the 4th beast’s empire exists. See Revelation 13: 1 – 18.

Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be THE VISION concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED DAYS; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

THE TIMING OF THIS NEXT STATEMENT IS WAY OFF AND SO IS THE IDENTIFICATION OF THE LITTLE HORN BY CEPT ONE.

Cept One.quote.
The little horn of chapter 8 is not Satan... unquote.

The little horn IS Satan.Why do I have to repeat this to you Cept One? It was dealt with in my previous threads.

Daniel 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth a ‘LITTLE HORN,’ which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Daniel 8: 10. “And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and IT CAST DOWN some OF THE HOST OF THE STARS TO THE GROUND, and stamped upon them.”

Revelation 12: 1. “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:” Revelation 12: 2. “And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.”

Revelation 12: 3. “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold A GREAT RED DRAGON, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.”

Revelation 12: 4. “And HIS TAIL DREW A THIRD PART OF THE STARS OF HEAVEN, AND DID CAST THEM TO THE EARTH: and the DRAGON stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”

Revelation 12: 5. “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

C

ept One. QUOTE.
The little horn is a king that persecutes the saints, desecrates the temple and causes the daily sacrifice to end for a little over six years. This can only have happened in the past for one major reason... JESUS. After the crucifixion the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom. UNQUOTE.

Unfortunately Cept one, you are relying on the added word Sacrifice, which was added to the king James Version Bible, as an afterthought by translators, here are the relenant verses Daniel 8: 11, 12, 13. Daniel 9: 27. Daniel 11: 31. and Daniel 12: 11 however that added word sacrifice, placed into the KJV and ocopied into others was not found within the fragments of the Ancient Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1947 and later in 1957.
That reconfirmed that that word was added later and cannot be relied upon. Even so, the time of the sacrifice of Jesus, was during the Roman Empire, existing during the legs of iron period which means you are dragging an event from the past into the time of the following verse concerning the vision.

Daniel 8: 16. “And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.”

Daniel 8: 17. “SO HE CAME NEAR where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.”

Revelation 19: 6. “And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord GOD OMNIPOTENT REIGNETH.

Revelation 19:
The first thing after the resurrection is the wedding supper in verses 1 to 10.
Then the preparation for war in verses 11 to 21 where the beast is killed then the other beasts a little later by the sword. The following verses coincide with Daniel 7: verses 11 and 12.

[Prophecy Countdown]

Repeat.

Cept One quote.
“How can this 4th beast devour the whole earth if there are 3 other empires ruling at the same time?”

You seem quite confused, there are other kings on Earth such as the lion, bear, leopard fighting with the beast at Armageddon.

Revelation 19: 19. “And I saw THE BEAST, AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH, and THEIR ARMIES, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

Revelation 19: 20. “And THE BEAST WAS TAKEN, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone.”

THE LION, BEAR AND LEOPARD ARE KILLED LATER.

Revelation 19: 21. “And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Again your premise is fallacious, in my opinion, because the fourth Empire Rome, LEGS OF IRON took over from the Greek Empire, BRASS THIGHS in 168 BC. The Roman Empire went into decline and historic oblivion in 476 AD as a one world power. The 4th beast and other kings, such as the lion, bear, and leopard who support the 4th beast are around much later according to the Bible at the time of the second coming of Christ.

Cept One quote.
The 2300 days prophecy refers to the 6+ years the temple was defiled during Antiochus Epiphanes persecution of the Jews.

I have to disagree because the Bible disagrees with your theory about the time factor. Again you ignore the angel Gabriel, let me remind you again.

Antiochus Epiphanes DIED IN 164 BC therefore was not around when the little horn/Satan cast the stars out of Heaven to the Earth, in Dan 8:10 at the time of baby Jesus in Rev 12: 1-6.
The little horn is with the lion, bear, leopard and 4th beast in Daniel 7: 4-8 and Revelation 13: 1-18. These visions concern the time of the end.

Daniel 8: 17. SO HE CAME NEAR TO WHERE I STOOD: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

Cept One quote.
"The time of the end" in context of chapter 8 is not speaking of the end of time (Armageddon), it refers to "the end of indignation" (Dan 8:19). This is unmistakable when you read verses 13 & 14.

Again and again you argue with the angel Gabriel’s words. The indignation is about the abominiation of desolation during ‘the time of the end’ and the ‘END OF TIME.’
Let’s read verses 13 and 14 without the added word sacrifice in italics by translators, therefore in context.

Having established the identity of the little horn as Satan, by what he does, by throwing down the stars from heaven, in Daniel 8: 10. confirming that feit in Revelation 12: 1 – 6 and the instigator being named as being the red dragon, lucifer that does it, we can ID the little horn.

Daniel 8: 9. “And out of one of them came forth a LITTLE HORN, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.”
Daniel 8: 10. “And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.”

Daniel 8: 11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8: 12. And an host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 8: 14. 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The vision at the time of the end is for 2300 ereb boqer.

Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.

Daniel 11: 27. And both these kings’ hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: FOR YET THE END shall be AT THE TIME APPOINTED.

Daniel 11: 28. Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

Daniel 11: 29. At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

Daniel 11: 30. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and HAVE INDIGNATION AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Daniel 11: 31. And arms shall stand on his part, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily and THEY SHALL PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

How long is the abomination of desolation set up to last for? 1290 days, according to Daniel 12: 11.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.

Now I will bring in Mathew 24 which demonstrates how a time span period is meant to be understood.

Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall SEE THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of BY DANIEL THE PROPHET, STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matthew 24: 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

How long is the abomination that maketh desolate set up to last for? Answer, 1290 days according to Daniel 12: 11. “And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

In verse 15 we are given an event, which is given a time span lasting 1290 days according to Daniel 12: 11. Therefore do the biblical maths, in Matthew 24: from verse 15 to verses 29. Jesus will return 1290 days later.

Matthew 24: 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24: 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So Cept One, there you have one out of many biblical time of and spans of various events which is very close to the second coming of Christ, which puts Antiochus Epiphanese, as a non contender and your cherished theory is out of the prophetic picture and away out from ‘the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy.’

[Prophecy Countdown]

Prophecy Copuntdown quoted by Cept One.
Daniel 2: 41. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, THE KINGDOM shall be divided; BUT THERE SHALL BE IN IT of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 2: 42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so THE KINGDOM shall be partly strong, and partly BROKEN. (or brittle)

Daniel 2: 43. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but THEY SHALL NOT CLEAVE ONE TO ANOTHER, even as iron is not mixed with clay. Unquote.

Cept One.
This is about as clear of a depiction of Europe as you can get. For centuries the kingdoms of Europe have tried to unite into one single entity thru marriage, war, and legalese... nothing has been effective in truly unifying them.

The vision is not about early Europe ‘for centuries’ as you suggest, because the vision is only concerned with the ‘TIME OF THE END.’ and is only has a six and a part year time span so the evening morning vision will not stretch back that far.
Stick to the scriptures, I also quoted VERSE 44 after quoting verses,41 - 43 to stay within biblical context so I will do so again.

Daniel 2: 44. And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Prophecy Countdown quoted by Cept One.
“The following scriptures will prove that these beasts are around when God sets up His kingdom.
The Saints will take the kingdom from the four beasts’ and Satan the little horn, during their reign. It is the Bible that pushes the beasts into the future, not me as you incorrectly suggest. I just read what the Bible states in verse 17 and 18. following. I will repeat verse 17 to keep them close.”

”Daniel 7: 17. “These GREAT BEASTS, WHICH ARE FOUR, are FOUR KINGS, which SHALL ARISE OUT OF THE EARTH.”

Daniel 7: 18. “BUT THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL TAKE THE KINGDOM, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for EVER AND EVER.”

The above event is repeated whereupon the Ancient of days gives the judgment in favour of the Saints who posses the KINGDOM at the time of the four beasts and little horn.

Daniel 7: 21. I beheld, and THE SAME HORN made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7: 22. UNTIL THE ANCIENT OF DAYS CAME, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and THE TIME CAME THAT THE SAINTS POSSESSED THE KINGDOM. Unquote.

Cept One
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. (Dan*7:23*KJV)

Prophecy Countdown quoted by Cept One.
“The time span of the last Divided kingdom is only for forty two months.

“ONE LAST DIVIDED KINGDOM within ‘the time of the end’ a 2300 day time span.” Unquote.

Cept Onerepiled quote
These 2 statements contradict each other... how long is the time of the end? 1260 days or 2300? Unquote.

There is no contradiction, Cept One. I did not say '1260 days' as you suggest I said 42 months for the duration of the beast kingdom which is about 1278 days.

1.....................2300 EREB BOQER TIME OF THE END................1 Eternity.................

1............................................1.....42 MONTHS BEAST EMPIRE.......1 Eternity.................

Prophecy Countdown quoted by Cept One.
“The time span of the last Divided kingdom is only for forty two months.”

“Revelation 13: 2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a LEOPARD, and his feet were as the feet of a BEAR, and his mouth as the mouth of a LION: and the DRAGON gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”

“Revelation 13: 3. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.”

“Revelation 13: 4. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”

“Revelation 13: 5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue FORTY TWO MONTHS.” UNQUOTE.

Cept One
Not to mention that most scholars apply the day/year principle to the 42 month prophecy.

That is also the teaching of SDA church . Most scientists believe in evolution but that does not mean they are right.
Please back up with the Bible and stop leaving the work of truth to others.
Referring to Numbers 14: 34 and Ezekiel 4: 6. as giving permission in changing the words from day into years is not a good ‘principle,’ a belief/opinion but is in fact unpricipled, an offensive to God and is worthy of death according to Revelation 22: 18, 19. so don’t go there Cept One.

Revelation 22: 18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, GOD SHALL ADD UNTO HIM THE PLAGUES THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK:

Revelation 22: 19. And if any man shall TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THIS PROPHECY, God shall TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Cept One
The day/year principle is not used for the chapter 8 prophecy because we are specifically told that it refers to literal days.

There is nothing in these following verses that states we are permitted to change words around, is an infringment worthy of death according to the words in Revelation 22: 18 – 19.

HERE WE HAVE A YEAR FOR EVERY DAY.

Numbers 14: 34. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, EVEN FORTY DAYS, each DAY FOR A YEAR, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Numbers 14: 35. I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

Ezekiel 6: 4. Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.

HERE WE HAVE A DAY FOR EVERY YEAR. Two opposites.

Ezekiel 6: 5. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 6: 6. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

(‘EVEN FORTY DAYS, EACH DAY FOR A YEAR.’ EQUALS 40 YEARS PUNISHMENT FOR 40 DAYS SIN.)

(‘I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days’ EQUALS 390 DAYS PUNISHMENT FOR 390 YEARS OF SIN.)

Cept One
The Ulai river is mentioned figuratively and not as a literal location of a battle but as the general location of the Medo Persian empire.

The specific geographical location within Daniel is simply that and is not ‘mentioned figuratively’ meaning symbolically, allegorically, metaphorically. If the Bible does not fit the historic view you pull the scriptures down in favour of a flawed theory.

Fact 1. The angel Gabriel does not place the time of the vision at the time of the brass thighs within the year 331, BC time of Alexander, but you mistakenly do.

Fact 2. The place where Daniel is taken is quite specific as being within the Province of Elam, which happens to be where the river Ulai passes. But you try to make it a vague location by using the word ‘figuratively’ because the biblical location does NOT suit your historic assumptions so you bring the Bible down to lift false doctrine? It won’t work!

Fact 3. Gabriel says the Ram was standing by the Ulai River. But you disagree because you mistakenly think that the he goat is supposedly Alexander.

Fact 4. Daniel is looking from the Province of Elam. He sees the he goat coming over the whole earth not touching the ground from the West, to meet the same ram that was standing by the river ulai.

No other time is demonstrated in Daniel 7 or mentioned, concerning Daniel chapter 8 other than ‘the time of the end’ and ‘end of time’ no other place is mentioned other than the Ulai River, the provnce of Elam. And he was at shushan in the palace. The event will occur at the specified place.

Cept One quote
I totally agree that the dragon is Satan... but this 7 headed dragon is also representative of a physical location on this planet and seated on this location is a whore representing Satan's church.
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (Rev*17:9*KJV)
This can only represent one of two places... Rome or Israel and all the identifying characteristics point towards Rome.

The Prophet Ezekiel recognises the whore as Jerusalem Israel, please read Ezekiel 16: 1 – 63.

PC.

[audreys247]

Question: Could the feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay possibly be steel?

Steel has the characteristic of being strong and brittle. We also use quite a bit of steel. However, if it was steel, Daniel would have probably used the word steel and not described it as iron and clay. Just a thought that occurred in my mind.

Daniel 2: 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

[Old man]

Question: Could the feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay possibly be steel?

Steel has the characteristic of being strong and brittle. We also use quite a bit of steel. However, if it was steel, Daniel would have probably used the word steel and not described it as iron and clay. Just a thought that occurred in my mind.

Hi Audrey;

I would say no. This was a dream that God gave to King Neb and an interpretation to Daniel for the king. While steel may have the characteristics you mention there was a reason why iron and clay were in the dream and mentioned in the interpretation. I would have to go with taking it for granted that they described what they actually saw which was iron and clay.

By the way; a very hearty welcome to the forum.