Metaphoric use of Leviathan and Demons

[Beckrl]

I've been give this some thought and what Markedward brings up in his thread Anti-Roman Imagery in the Revelation . The connections seems to imply some type of Mythology written in the Jewish bible and possibly taken from the Greek Mythology of Hydra .

It speaks of Leviathan coming from the sea which can be interperted metaphorically. Here is what Wikipedia has to give on the combat myth.

Excerpt:

Many of the Hebrews' pagan neighbors had a "combat myth" about the good god battling the demon of chaos; one example of this mytheme is the Bablyonian Enuma Elish.^[36] A lesser known example is the very fragmentary myth of Labbu.^[37] According to historian Bernard McGinn, the combat myth's imagery influenced Jewish mythology. The myth of God's triumph over Leviathan, a symbol of chaos, has the form of a combat myth.^[38] In addition, McGinn thinks the Hebrews applied the "combat myth" motif to the relationship between God and Satan: originally a deputy in God's court, assigned to act as mankind's "accuser" (satan means "to oppose"), Satan evolved into a being with "an apparently independent realm of operation as a source of evil" — no longer God's deputy but his opponent in a cosmic struggle.^[39]
Even the Exodus story shows influence. McGinn believes the "Song of the sea", which the Hebrews sang after seeing God drown the Egyptian army in the Red Sea, includes "motifs and language from the combat myth used to emphasize the importance of the foundational event in Israel's religious identity: the crossing of the Red Sea and deliverance from the Pharaoh."^[38] Likewise, Armstrong notes the similarity between pagan myths in which gods "split the sea in half when they created the world" and the story of the Exodus from Egypt, in which Moses splits the Sea of Reeds (the Red Sea) — "though what is being brought into being in the Exodus, is not a cosmos but a people".^[32] In any case, the motif of God as the "divine warrior" fighting on Israel's behalf is clearly evident in the Song of the Sea (Ex. 15). This motif is recurrent in poetry throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (I Samuel 2; Zechariah 9:11-16;14:3-8).

It notes that "The myth of God's triumph over Leviathan, a symbol of chaos, has the form of a combat myth" The word "chaos" is translated from 'sea' in which Leviathan is from. Noting that in Revelation John sees a Beast rising up out of the sea having seven heads. This again is a desciption of Leviathan.

I'm also noting that the Leviathan the Beast form out of the sea of chaos is a Demon or Devil. Which is been described as some what like unto Satan which will be destoryed by God. So I'm reading this as a metaphor that desrcibes the battle between God and Satan or good and evil.

This same metaphoric writting in Matthew 12 which concerns Jesus speaking in parables of the house of Satan being broken into and his goods taken.Studying and gathering more info about demons I come across these connections.

• Demon equakes to spirit, unclean spirit(s), evil spirit(s) and devil(s).

• Unclean is symbolic of Goat, Swine, Frogs, and Lepers.

• Haunts denotes the Deep, Sea, Desert, Tombs and Mountains.

I also noticed that when Jesus spoke of the demons he then related them to unclean spirits and or devils in the KJV. So I gather that these are interchangeable and synonymous with man. One passage that deals with demons (unclean spirits) I would like for us to take a deeper look into is from Matthew 12 were Jesus enters the synagogue after his disciples plucked the ears of corn to eat on the sabbath. Jesus then answers the scribes and Pharisees question for a sign. The part I would like to deal with is Matthew 12:43-45

43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

My first thought would be why had Jesus sudden change to speaking about unclean spirits as in answering their question of a sign? But as you read on we come to realize that the disciples wanted to know why Jesus was speaking unto them in parables?(Matthew 13:10) Jesus spoke the parables about Beelzebub and unclean spirits on the same day as He told that of the sower (Mt. 12:46; 13:1). The large amount of parabolic language used that day therefore prompted their question.
So to the meaning behind this parabolic story of the unclean spirits. First we notice that Jesus said to them, “Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation”

Excerpt: comments drawn from this source

“When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places…” Walking through a wilderness and deciding to return to one’s house is clearly language applicable to a man. This is all confirmed by the fact that Jesus is almost certainly alluding to a verse in the Septuagint version ( which was the Bible in common use in Christ’s time) at Proverbs 9:12 Septuagint version which is omitted. This verse clearly speaks of a man, not a spirit, “ walks through a waterless waste, through a land that is desert, and with his hands garners barrenness”.

The “spirit” often refers to the attitude of mind (e.g. Mk. 14:38; Lk. 2:40; 2 Cor. 2:13; 12:18; Eph. 4:23). An “unclean spirit” may possibly refer to and unclean state of mind, which would fit the context in vs. 34-36. Because, as a man “thinketh in his heart, so is he” (Prov. 23:7), the spirit would be synonymous with the man. Thus the parable would describe a man’s attitude of mind being cleansed and then his going into an even more degenerate state.

As a parable the man, representing the Jews, who would not heed the teaching of Christ, walked through “dry places”. This may recall apostate Israel in the wilderness, who also “tempted Christ” (1 Cor. 10: 9), thereby refusing to obey the teaching of Moses, who represented Christ (Dt. 18:18). God led Israel “through the wilderness, through a land of deserts and of pits, through a land of drought, and of the shadow of death. This exactly recalls the language of Proverbs 9:12 in the Septuagint - “through a waterless waste, through a land that is desert…barrenness”. Notice that Israel in the wilderness sought for the “rest” of the kingdom, but never found it (Heb. 3:11). Similarly, the man in Matthew 12: 43 went through the dry wilderness “seeking rest, and findeth none”.

The man decided to return to his house. This must have reference to v. 29, spoken shortly before, which says that the strong man of a house must be bound before the contents of his house can be taken away.

Thus the house to which the man returned was empty all the goods of the strong man had been taken away. This may have been symbolized by Jesus cleansing the temple (Mark. 11:15-17). He described the temple to the Jews as “your house” (Matthew 23:38). The man, representing apostate Israel, would call the temple “my house”. Christ’s cleansing of the temple at Passover time would have mirrored the Jewish custom, based on Exodus 12:19, of the firstborn sweeping the leaven from the house. Jesus cleansed the temple, His “Father’s house” .

So in my conclusion of Matthew 12 of the man with the unclean spirit (demon) is that it’s a parable to teach of the unclean man (Jews) and his house (the temple). More to come...

[Beckrl]

Continuing with the metaphoric interpertation of Leviathan and Demons we can also find this in the writtings of Matthew 8, Mark 5 of the Demons called Legion being casted out of the man into swine causing them to drown in the sea. As mentioned above there seems to be some connection to 'unclean spirits' (demons) and the use of swine and the sea metaphorically.

This casting out of demons appears to be another parable to allude to either Anti-Roman resistance as John Crossan considers or it's about casting out the evil spirits of the man (Israel) as being his evil speech that lead men away.

Another connection is how Jesus speak of the Phraisees and Saduccees of them being serpents and scorpions (Luke 10:19) Serpents and scorpions are metaphors for people, not literal snakes and insects. Matthew 23:33 shows who the serpents are, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers." and in In Ezekiel 2: 3-6 the children of Israel are said to be a rebellious nation and in verse 6 are called scorpions. In this same context Jesus told his disciples that they were give the power to tread on serpents and scorpions and even power over spirits (demons). Their evil speech of venom.

Let then take a look at Revelation 16 the sixth Vial is poured out it contains unclean spirits descibed like unto frogs coming out of the mouth of the beast and false prophet. They are the spirits of Devils (demons) working miracles, speaking lies to deceive the nations. Notice that the image is of frogs that is one image that is used to denote the unclean as one of the plagues. Here we have symbols of serpents and frogs as evil. One could say that it denotes evil speech that comes out of the Phraisees mouth or of those that teach falsehood. It is said of the Beast that he had a mouth of proud words.(Rev.13:5)

So what Jesus and his disciples are at battle with is not physical man, but his evil spirit (demon). For we battle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers in high places of darkness, spiritual wickedness. (Eph.6:12) Be renewed in the spirit (renewing that evil spirit) of you mind, and to put on the new man...(Eph.4:23)


Who's mouths must be stopped, (Romans 3:19) and especially Titus 1:10-12.

10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

[Beckrl]

It would seem that in the short time span of Jesus ministry there was a larger number of the Jewish people possessed by demons, sick and lepers. To which Jesus healed them, some by just saying 'you are healed, by your faith' and others putting mud in their eyes and telling them to go wash the mud out of their eyes.

Now I have alway taking these to be miracles, but when I begun studying these seem more of a metaphorical story than been literal. In view of John Crossan these miracles are not to be taken literal, they should be understood as parables about power and authority in the new Israel, that Jesus healed people ideologically as a way of saying that the Kingdom of God stands against this worldly system of injustice. (Time, 4/11/95) For Crossan and others, the word, miracle, is little more than a figure of speech.


I would also connect not only Leviathan and Demons as being metaphorical stories, but also those that are 'Sick, Dumb and Blind, the Lepers' as being metaphors of the transformation of those sinners into the healed, cleaned and those that now can see. Jesus said of himself that he came not to heal the righteous, but the sinners. (So in this case Jesus never healed a righteous man?) Therefore Jesus said that the sinner was sick unto death, not in the physical sence, but of the spiritual death. Jesus came to heal the broken hearted, to renew their minds so not to think in the old ways of the law, but in the newest in Christ.

Here's a youtube by John Crossan which he speaks about the use of parables by Jesus and how the writers picked up on this type of story telling and applied it of Jesus and his miracles. As I illustrated of casting out of demons in the OP.

[Slug1]

If I get all you are saying... what are the demons that are being cast out when the church begins to be built, all throughout the chapters of Acts?

Also... in the Gospels, when the Apostles are upset that others are casting out demons and Jesus tells the Apostles to settle down and let them cast demons out... what do these demons represent... metaphorically?

When disciples (the 70) return and are bragging to Jesus that even the "demons" were in submission to them in His name... what are those demons and what do they represent, metaphorically?

Also... today, when a person is delivered of a demon and the moment the demon leaves the body, whatever "medical" problem they had, ENDS... how does this happen if the demon was "just" a metaphor?

Just some questions, as I read what you wrote.

[Beckrl]

If I get all you are saying... what are the demons that are being cast out when the church begins to be built, all throughout the chapters of Acts?

I'm sorry if what I wrote is hard to understand. I was just working this out and applying what I understood. As far as Ican tell Jesus told them that he have given them the key to the kingdom that key is the knowledge of God and of his Son the Christ. It is this key that they were able to set free or to bind. I would see this working in the same way of them setting free those with evil spirits. Jesus said that it wasn't what entered the man that defiled the man, but what comes out of the man that defiled him. What was Jesus referring to? To me he was referring to that evil speech. As noted John descibed that as frogs coming out of the beast and false prophets mouth. In that time frogs was a symbol of evil and of demons, but really what you get is the evil words that they spoke, showing the evil spirit with in them.

Also lets take into consideration that not only did Jesus in power them over spirits, but also to heal the sick and raise the dead. At the same time telling them that they have power to walk on serpents and scorpions and that they should not be surprise that they have power over the spirits (demons). Now you tell me what this means?


If you want my opinion Jesus was saying that they have the power to put their foot on the heads of the Pharisees and Saduccees and to even rebuke thier evil teachings. Not only does Jesus give the image of the Pharisees as being vipers (serpents) having venom by their evil speech, but he also called their teachings Leaven.(Mark 8:15)

That is were the word 'spirit' (Luke 10:20) is translated into 'demon' the venom is the evil spirit that they were rejoying over that they had the power to shut their mouths up.

Also... in the Gospels, when the Apostles are upset that others are casting out demons and Jesus tells the Apostles to settle down and let them cast demons out... what do these demons represent... metaphorically?

It again seems that those that understood the message where teaching and bring deliverance to those that were possessed by an evil spirit. Lets say the evil spirit of fornication. When someone gets saved they are delivered from that evil spirit which rulers over them. No longer is they in bondage in the new creature in Christ Jesus becasue all things are made new. (ie renewing of their mind) These that were casting out the evil spirits were not of the choosen Apostles that is what the Apostles were questioning and not that the ablilty to cast out demons.

What does that mean metaphorically? Well I would consider that to be that the message wasn't only given to the few, but that God had other sheep that he must bring into the fold.

When disciples (the 70) return and are bragging to Jesus that even the "demons" were in submission to them in His name... what are those demons and what do they represent, metaphorically?

I spoke on this above.

Also... today, when a person is delivered of a demon and the moment the demon leaves the body, whatever "medical" problem they had, ENDS... how does this happen if the demon was "just" a metaphor?

Just some questions, as I read what you wrote.

There have been in the past that what is said to be demon possession was healed by medicine. Actually different types of psychological disorders that are curable in many cases with modern drugs.

What is introduced in Greek Mythology of 'demons' is picked up by the Jews in their Hellenization. They saw these psychological disorders and assumed that the person had a demon. I understand Jesus as using what is taught in these Myths as their every day ideological and using them in his parables to teach of the kingdom of God. I have not idea why some think that there are demons in this kind of way today.

[Slug1]

If you want my opinion Jesus was saying that they have the power to put their foot on the heads of the Pharisees and Saduccees and to even rebuke thier evil teachings. Not only does Jesus give the image of the Pharisees as being vipers (serpents) having venom by their evil speech, but he also called their teachings Leaven.(Mark 8:15)

v15 Then He charged them, saying, “Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.”

Well, in context of Mark 8:15... Jesus isn't talking about demons or any metaphor of demons. He's talking about the "religion" and "doctrine" that the Pharisee's force upon people and the problems that, that will cause upon those who follow Christ and have faith in Christ.

When the disciples returned, they were explaining about how demons were subject to them when they used the name of Christ.

Luke 10:17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather[f] rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

This is explaining that satan's power over man is at an end, through the power of His name, JESUS... all demonic forces are subject to the Body of Christ. Now, as a Body of Christ, this "authority" over satan is NO bragging matter. Jesus makes this clear... this does not lessen the fact that AS the Body of Christ, we can deliver people of "demonic" forces and oppression. Even if that oppression is to the point of actual possession... we can deliver such a person of demons and END the oppression and/or possession.

These that were casting out the evil spirits were not of the choosen Apostles that is what the Apostles were questioning and not that the ablilty to cast out demons.

Here is the scripture I was referring to:

Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

The term we have to really look at is "casting out"... if a person is speaking against false teaching, it's not ever called, "casting out"... ONLY when the scriptures are dealing with the actual removal of demons from people, is the term, "casting out" used in all these scriptures.

There have been in the past that what is said to be demon possession was healed by medicine. Actually different types of psychological disorders that are curable in many cases with modern drugs.

What is introduced in Greek Mythology of 'demons' is picked up by the Jews in their Hellenization. They saw these psychological disorders and assumed that the person had a demon. I understand Jesus as using what is taught in these Myths as their every day ideological and using them in his parables to teach of the kingdom of God. I have not idea why some think that there are demons in this kind of way today.

Let's toss in a scripture then...

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the[a] city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.

Now... your opinion, if I understand you properly is that "leaven" is what Jesus was talking about concerning serpents and scorpions. Seems more that "metaphorically" in all the many scriptures like this that "demons" were CAME OUT of people... the metaphor was of what "ailed" people when the cause of the ailment, oppression, sin etc was caused by the DIRECT influence of a demon.

Not the teaching (LEAVEN) of the Pharisees.

[Beckrl]

v15 Then He charged them, saying, “Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.”

Well, in context of Mark 8:15... Jesus isn't talking about demons or any metaphor of demons. He's talking about the "religion" and "doctrine" that the Pharisee's force upon people and the problems that, that will cause upon those who follow Christ and have faith in Christ.

How was Jesus using 'leaven' in the literal sence or in an metaphorical sence. That is my application here and Jesus also called the Pharisees and Saduccess serpents and scorpions and denoted their venom as the 'spirit' that comes out of their mouth as their religion and doctrines being evil.

When the disciples returned, they were explaining about how demons were subject to them when they used the name of Christ.

Luke 10:17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather[f] rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

This is explaining that satan's power over man is at an end, through the power of His name, JESUS... all demonic forces are subject to the Body of Christ. Now, as a Body of Christ, this "authority" over satan is NO bragging matter. Jesus makes this clear... this does not lessen the fact that AS the Body of Christ, we can deliver people of "demonic" forces and oppression. Even if that oppression is to the point of actual possession... we can deliver such a person of demons and END the oppression and/or possession.

You might have missed the scripture I used to help understand how Jesus used serpents and scorpions. That passage can be found in Ezekiel 2:3-6 calling the rebellious children of Israel as scorpions and as thorns and briers. So that is clearly used in a metaphoric sence.

Here are some other passages that might aid to help understand the bondage by an evil spirit which can be delivered by faith in God.


Captivity:

1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[It seems to imply being deceived by those that speak evil and have evil doctrines.]

Ephesians 6:12
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[In this sence the rulers (devils) of darkness are what we battle against, being set free from darkness]

Colossians 2:8
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. (NIV)
[Captive here seems to be by doctrine of men]

Here is the scripture I was referring to:

Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

The term we have to really look at is "casting out"... if a person is speaking against false teaching, it's not ever called, "casting out"... ONLY when the scriptures are dealing with the actual removal of demons from people, is the term, "casting out" used in all these scriptures.

Casting out of demons is the setting free the captives.

Let's toss in a scripture then...

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the[a] city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.

Now... your opinion, if I understand you properly is that "leaven" is what Jesus was talking about concerning serpents and scorpions. Seems more that "metaphorically" in all the many scriptures like this that "demons" were CAME OUT of people... the metaphor was of what "ailed" people when the cause of the ailment, oppression, sin etc was caused by the DIRECT influence of a demon.

Not the teaching (LEAVEN) of the Pharisees.

Their aliment or sickness is of sin to which Jesus said he came to set free.

[Slug1]

How was Jesus using 'leaven' in the literal sence or in an metaphorical sence. That is my application here and Jesus also called the Pharisees and Saduccess serpents and scorpions and denoted their venom as the 'spirit' that comes out of their mouth as their religion and doctrines being evil.

Quote or point me to the scriptures that you are using for this statement then.

You might have missed the scripture I used to help understand how Jesus used serpents and scorpions. That passage can be found in Ezekiel 2:3-6 calling the rebellious children of Israel as scorpions and as thorns and briers. So that is clearly used in a metaphoric sence.

OK... I'll be reading this then... was this scripture used as a ref from a NT scripture? Maybe one that Jesus or an Apostle was speaking and the Ezekiel scriptures were used to make the point?

Here are some other passages that might aid to help understand the bondage by an evil spirit which can be delivered by faith in God.


Captivity:

1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[It seems to imply being deceived by those that speak evil and have evil doctrines.]

Ephesians 6:12
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[In this sence the rulers (devils) of darkness are what we battle against, being set free from darkness]

Colossians 2:8
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. (NIV)
[Captive here seems to be by doctrine of men]



Casting out of demons is the setting free the captives.



Their aliment or sickness is of sin to which Jesus said he came to set free.

OK... so when "demons" came out SPEAKING as they were cast out... how does your understanding and the way you reason this all out, include that the "sin" was talking and in some cases COMPLAINING, and/or even BEGGING... when it was cast out??? Some scriptures, Jesus is telling the demon to "shut-up" and not to speak.

All the scriptures you just posted are about captivity which is not in the context of whether a demon is real or not real. So, sure captivity is a topic... but, the topic (as you began) is of whether demons are a metaphor or a real spiritual "creature" that is real and NOT a metaphor at all. Thus the reason for the "authority" given to the entire Body of Christ BY His name, to deal with them and cast them out??

[Beckrl]

Quote or point me to the scriptures that you are using for this statement then.

I'm not sure that you are making the connections of 'spirits' which in Luke 10:20 denote the 'devils or demons' which means 'spirits'. To the vemon of the serpents and scorpions to that which comes out of their mouth as their evil leaven.

The disciples thought that Jesus was telling them of literal bread of the Phraisees and that the disciples had forgotten to take bread, but Jesus meant 'leaven' in the metaphorical sence of thier teachings. Likewise when Jesus told them of the serpents and scorpions and the spirits (demons). These all parallel to the teachings of the Phraisses and Sadducees that these were enjoying over that they were given power to walk on.

As I noted before in Ezekiel that serpents and scorpions are used to denote the rebellious people of Israel those that where unwilling to recieve the word of God. These are used metaphorically rather than literally.

OK... I'll be reading this then... was this scripture used as a ref from a NT scripture? Maybe one that Jesus or an Apostle was speaking and the Ezekiel scriptures were used to make the point?

Jesus himself draws from Ezekiel to descibed the people as serpents and scorpions. Just as it was in the days of Ezekiel when God give him the book of God's word for the people, but the people rejected the words of God, thus the judgment upon those in that day. Jesus used that same language in describing the people in his day. He said to the Pharisees that they were viper (seprents) and the Sudducees (scorpions) to these comes the wrath of God. John the Baptist fortold them of that day.(Matthew 3:7-12)

Likewise it is written by John in the book of Revelation of the judgment of God upon the wicked. John also draws from Ezekiel in that God gives him a book to eat (words of God) to preach to the people.(Rev.10) parallels with (Eze.2)

Looking into how John descibes these in chapter 16 as 'unclean spirits' like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the beast and false prophet.(v.13) These would be the evil teachings that deceive the nations. Hints the use of (false) prophet.

OK... so when "demons" came out SPEAKING as they were cast out... how does your understanding and the way you reason this all out, include that the "sin" was talking and in some cases COMPLAINING, and/or even BEGGING... when it was cast out??? Some scriptures, Jesus is telling the demon to "shut-up" and not to speak.

I'm not pushing the metaphor that far as I given what I understand them to be in my OP. At any case there many be a connection to shutting the mouth of the Pharisees as in the case in Matthew 22:22. Again one may look at how the words are used to descibe one event as in Matthew 12:43-45 and can be seen that it's metaphorically gives a image of a parable to reveal to condition of Israel.

All the scriptures you just posted are about captivity which is not in the context of whether a demon is real or not real. So, sure captivity is a topic... but, the topic (as you began) is of whether demons are a metaphor or a real spiritual "creature" that is real and NOT a metaphor at all. Thus the reason for the "authority" given to the entire Body of Christ BY His name, to deal with them and cast them out??

I give those passages to help in the understanding of the captivity that is placed on one when they are deceived and keep from the truth. Paul used this same analogy when speaking to the Thessalonians saying that they where the children of the light, that they should not be deceived and be overtaken as a theift in the night. Night here gives the image of darkness to which Paul said, let not you sleep as do others that sleep in darkness, but be sober. (1 Thess. 5:4-8)

Those that are deceived are holded in darkness (lack of knowledge of the truth) these are in captivity. These are those that Jesus came to set free by the word of God, the true knowledge of God. Those that do not receive the light of God are holded in darkness (bottomless pit) and as Paul alludes to as false messengers (2 Peter 2:1-9) and also parallels with (Jude 1:5-8)

So again clealy these 'fallen angels' is another type of metaphor that speaks of the condition of Israel which concerns it's false teachers. To which many connection 'demons' to.

[Slug1]

I'm not sure that you are making the connections of 'spirits' which in Luke 10:20 denote the 'devils or demons' which means 'spirits'. To the vemon of the serpents and scorpions to that which comes out of their mouth as their evil leaven.

The disciples thought that Jesus was telling them of literal bread of the Phraisees and that the disciples had forgotten to take bread, but Jesus meant 'leaven' in the metaphorical sence of thier teachings. Likewise when Jesus told them of the serpents and scorpions and the spirits (demons). These all parallel to the teachings of the Phraisses and Sadducees that these were enjoying over that they were given power to walk on.

As I noted before in Ezekiel that serpents and scorpions are used to denote the rebellious people of Israel those that where unwilling to recieve the word of God. These are used metaphorically rather than literally.




Jesus himself draws from Ezekiel to descibed the people as serpents and scorpions. Just as it was in the days of Ezekiel when God give him the book of God's word for the people, but the people rejected the words of God, thus the judgment upon those in that day. Jesus used that same language in describing the people in his day. He said to the Pharisees that they were viper (seprents) and the Sudducees (scorpions) to these comes the wrath of God. John the Baptist fortold them of that day.(Matthew 3:7-12)

Likewise it is written by John in the book of Revelation of the judgment of God upon the wicked. John also draws from Ezekiel in that God gives him a book to eat (words of God) to preach to the people.(Rev.10) parallels with (Eze.2)

Looking into how John descibes these in chapter 16 as 'unclean spirits' like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the beast and false prophet.(v.13) These would be the evil teachings that deceive the nations. Hints the use of (false) prophet.




I'm not pushing the metaphor that far as I given what I understand them to be in my OP. At any case there many be a connection to shutting the mouth of the Pharisees as in the case in Matthew 22:22. Again one may look at how the words are used to descibe one event as in Matthew 12:43-45 and can be seen that it's metaphorically gives a image of a parable to reveal to condition of Israel.



I give those passages to help in the understanding of the captivity that is placed on one when they are deceived and keep from the truth. Paul used this same analogy when speaking to the Thessalonians saying that they where the children of the light, that they should not be deceived and be overtaken as a theift in the night. Night here gives the image of darkness to which Paul said, let not you sleep as do others that sleep in darkness, but be sober. (1 Thess. 5:4-8)

Those that are deceived are holded in darkness (lack of knowledge of the truth) these are in captivity. These are those that Jesus came to set free by the word of God, the true knowledge of God. Those that do not receive the light of God are holded in darkness (bottomless pit) and as Paul alludes to as false messengers (2 Peter 2:1-9) and also parallels with (Jude 1:5-8)

So again clealy these 'fallen angels' is another type of metaphor that speaks of the condition of Israel which concerns it's false teachers. To which many connection 'demons' to.

In reading all you wrote, I agree that in many of the scriptures involved with this thread have a metaphorical illumination as well as the spiritual.

We can't look at them all ONLY in a metaphorical light though!!! There are people demonized in the world and even in the Body of Christ and if the Body of Christ ignores those who are... because they don't believe that "man" can be demonized... then they are not applying the "spiritual" side of those scriptures.

As you are saying concerning false "teaching and preaching", if a person preaches ONLY the metaphorical side of all these and many more scriptures... that is EXACTLY what the enemy wants. People to believe that if a person is demonized that it's only "metaphorical" and they need to treat the problem medically and NOT, spiritually.

Demons were being removed from many people as the scriptures reveal to us and their "illness/injury/insanity" was GONE once the demon was gone.

Same happens today but not much because many in the Body of Christ do not apply scriptures "spiritually", they preach and apply them ONLY metaphorically! This allows satan to FREELY oppress and demonize people.

[Beckrl]

In reading all you wrote, I agree that in many of the scriptures involved with this thread have a metaphorical illumination as well as the spiritual.

We can't look at them all ONLY in a metaphorical light though!!! There are people demonized in the world and even in the Body of Christ and if the Body of Christ ignores those who are... because they don't believe that "man" can be demonized... then they are not applying the "spiritual" side of those scriptures.

As you are saying concerning false "teaching and preaching", if a person preaches ONLY the metaphorical side of all these and many more scriptures... that is EXACTLY what the enemy wants. People to believe that if a person is demonized that it's only "metaphorical" and they need to treat the problem medically and NOT, spiritually.

Demons were being removed from many people as the scriptures reveal to us and their "illness/injury/insanity" was GONE once the demon was gone.

Okay I see we agree that many spriptures involve a metaphoric reading, but only to a point. You stated that there are scriptures that reveal demons literally and not metaphorically. Can you provide those passages and why you see them literally.

[Slug1]

Okay I see we agree that many spriptures involve a metaphoric reading, but only to a point. You stated that there are scriptures that reveal demons literally and not metaphorically. Can you provide those passages and why you see them literally.

Sure... I can apply 2:

Luke 13:10 Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.” 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”

If this scripture is not about the spiritual deliverance a women FROM a spirit of infirmity and then her healing by Jesus and this is a scripture that is ONLY a metaphor... then what is the metaphorical meaning?

Why was Jesus scolded by the Pharisee's if what He did was not "spiritual" and only metaphorical?

OK... "metaphorical" meaning as being free of "the Law", or at least teaching us what will BE freedom... but what of the "spiritual" meaning in the actual deliverance of the demon from this woman?

Another:

Acts 16:16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” 18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour.

If this scripture is ONLY metaphorical and not about the spiritual deliverance of this women FROM a spirit of divination, then why did he and Silas get put in jail if what he did was not "spiritual" and only "metaphorical"?

As for this one... straight up deliverance of a demon from this woman. As for metaphorical... unless you want to go to, if he didn't deliver the women from this demon, then he'd never be able to meet the jailor who accepted Christ? If that is the metaphorical meaning... doesn't lessen the spiritual meaning that an actual demon was delivered from that woman and now she was free of the oppression of being a fortune-teller.

[divaD]

Another:

Acts 16:16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” 18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour.

If this scripture is ONLY metaphorical and not about the spiritual deliverance of this women FROM a spirit of divination, then why did he and Silas get put in jail if what he did was not "spiritual" and only "metaphorical"?

As for this one... straight up deliverance of a demon from this woman. As for metaphorical...

In order to stay consistent, when he and Silas get put in jail, that would be metaphoric as well, since that was allegedly based on a metaphor to begin with. That's assuming one didn't literally get delivered of a spirit of divination. Speaking for myself, I would interpret that account as factual, as in historically factual, including a literal spirit of divination, and is not speaking metaphorically about that spirit.

No doubt, a lot of the Bible is based on metaphoric language. But I think that's where discernment has to come into play..recognizing one from the other. As far as the OP, I think Beckrl is thinking along the right lines, in regards to the leviathan. But as far as concluding demons are not really literal, but only metaphors, well I can't quite go along with that. Since satan can't be in more than one place at a time, and the fact my mind has been bombarded with uncontrollable evil thoughts in the past, that just came like out of nowhere in which I had no control over until I rebuked them, then my explanation is that literal demons were behind the attacks.
I don't think metaphors can do things like that to you.

[Slug1]

In order to stay consistent, when he and Silas get put in jail, that would be metaphoric as well, since that was allegedly based on a metaphor to begin with. That's assuming one didn't literally get delivered of a spirit of divination. Speaking for myself, I would interpret that account as factual, as in historically factual, including a literal spirit of divination, and is not speaking metaphorically about that spirit.

No doubt, a lot of the Bible is based on metaphoric language. But I think that's where discernment has to come into play..recognizing one from the other. As far as the OP, I think Beckrl is thinking along the right lines, in regards to the leviathan. But as far as concluding demons are not really literal, but only metaphors, well I can't quite go along with that. Since satan can't be in more than one place at a time, and the fact my mind has been bombarded with uncontrollable evil thoughts in the past, that just came like out of nowhere in which I had no control over until I rebuked them, then my explanation is that literal demons were behind the attacks.
I don't think metaphors can do things like that to you.

I edited my original post and went there... about Paul and Silas meeting the jailor.

As for demons... I'm sure you've read enough I've posted in many threads, that since I've been led by God to be in deliverance ministry, one demon was enough for me to realize that they are NOT metaphorical.

As for metaphoric... we can't be blind to the metaphoric meaning of scripture either. I agree with you concerning the ignoring of the "spiritual" meaning that seems to be a premise of the message that too many preach and teach. It's almost like such preachers and teachers don't want the Body of Christ to be effective against the hosts of wickedness that satan has at his disposal.

Now... if a message from any pulpit is gonna make people believe that demons don't exist... WHO do you really think is the behind such a message?

Sure isn't God.

At the same time... everything isn't demonic either, such a message wouldn't be of God either.

So... what is the truth in the middle between these two extremes and where is the middle?

Since satan can't be in more than one place at a time, and the fact my mind has been bombarded with uncontrollable evil thoughts in the past, that just came like out of nowhere in which I had no control over until I rebuked them, then my explanation is that literal demons were behind the attacks.

Yep, and scripture makes this clear that satan has a whole host of forces at his disposal to do what "he" does since he can't be everywhere at once:

Ephesians 6:¹¹ Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. ¹² For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,^[c] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

[fewarechosen]

100 percent real

but not the type of "real" fleshy eyes can see

leviathan, serpent, behemoth, dragon, prince of the world, king of the children of pride.
hes very real.