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Thread: Throne of the high priest

  1. #31
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Doulos View Post
    An interesting take,
    Thank you!

    but you won't find another example like this that David could not have sung himself and made sense.
    How about Psalm 132?

    A song of ascents. O LORD, remember David and all the hardships he endured.

    Would David say "Remember David"? Or would he say "Remember me"?

    11 The LORD swore unto David in truth.

    Would David say "The Lord swore to David in truth"? Or would he say "The Lord swore to me in truth"?

    Psalm obviously meant to be sung by someone else.

    So, your interpretation is shall we say, unique.
    And about the mistranslations of Psalm 110 and Zechariah 6 you have nothing to say?
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  2. #32
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Not what it says in Hebrew.

    The first "lord" in the sentence is YHVH, that is, God.

    The second "lord" in the sentence is "Adonee", that is "my master". ...
    Semantics. What's the difference between "Lord" and "My Master"? They both mean the exact same thing.

  3. #33
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    Semantics. What's the difference between "Lord" and "My Master"? They both mean the exact same thing.
    If you go shopping in Israel, a shopkeeper might call you "Adonee". He won't call you "YHVH".

    So it seems like a pretty big difference, actually.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  4. #34
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    In Hebrew, the Psalm begins "A Psalm of David" because it's about...king David.
    Cant be about King David because he was never a priest

  5. #35
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Cant be about King David because he was never a priest
    Well let's dissect the language.

    It doesn't say he will be a priest. It says he will be a "priest like Malkitzedek."

    Who was Malkitzedek? Genesis 14 refers to him as the "king of Salem", that is, Jerusalem.

    So God is promising king David that he will be king of Jerusalem.

    If you're hung up on the word "priest", in Hebrew, "Cohen", be aware that David's sons were called "Cohanim" in 2 Samuel 8:18. They were obviously not "priests" because they came from the wrong tribe. But they were of the royal line that was ruler over Jerusalem, as Malkitzedek was also ruler over Jerusalem.

    Still no comment on the translations?
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.
    19 He blessed him and said,


    "Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
    Possessor of heaven and earth;


    20 And blessed be God Most High,
    Who has delivered your enemies into your hand."


    He gave him a tenth of all.

    Is there a difference in being a priest forever in the order of melchisedech and being a priest in the order of Aaron?

  7. #37
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Is there a difference in being a priest forever in the order of melchisedech and being a priest in the order of Aaron?
    No idea.

    But David's sons were "priests", so God's promise to David was true.

    Still no comment on the translation?
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Still no comment on the translation?
    Zech 6
    "Take silver and gold, make an ornate crown and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest.

    12 "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.
    13 "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne.



    Joshua the high priest is a symbol of the coming branch who will wear the royal crown and sit on the throne and build the temple...agree?

    Zech 3
    'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you—indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.
    9 'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

    The blood of the Branch ( high priest ) will remove the iniquity

  9. #39
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Zech 6
    Joshua the high priest is a symbol of the coming branch who will wear the royal crown and sit on the throne and build the temple...agree?
    No. Verse 13 makes it clear that the priest and the king are two different people, each sitting on their own throne.


    The blood of the Branch ( high priest ) will remove the iniquity
    I don't see how you get this from any translation.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Thank you!


    How about Psalm 132?

    A song of ascents. O LORD, remember David and all the hardships he endured.

    Would David say "Remember David"? Or would he say "Remember me"?

    11 The LORD swore unto David in truth.

    Would David say "The Lord swore to David in truth"? Or would he say "The Lord swore to me in truth"?

    Psalm obviously meant to be sung by someone else.
    Psalm 132 is not a Psalm of David.

    And about the mistranslations of Psalm 110 and Zechariah 6 you have nothing to say?
    Psalm 110 uses Adoni with cause since the focus here is not of the Messiah's godhood, but his Kingship and earthly authority. Though there is president to call the manifested presence of God by the name of Adoni as in Judges 6:13-14.

    Judges 6 (NASB95)
    13 Then Gideon said to him, “O my lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, ‘Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the LORD has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.”
    14 The LORD looked at him and said, “Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you?”

    Most scholars don't think so either. And, the New Testament does not support your view. The Septuagint translates Psalm 110 the same as the NT does. Maybe its time for you to recalculate.

    As for Zechariah 6, I believe it clearly shows a high priest sitting on the throne in a symbolic act foreshadowing the Messiah.

  11. #41
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Well let's dissect the language.

    It doesn't say he will be a priest. It says he will be a "priest like Malkitzedek."

    Who was Malkitzedek? Genesis 14 refers to him as the "king of Salem", that is, Jerusalem.

    So God is promising king David that he will be king of Jerusalem.

    If you're hung up on the word "priest", in Hebrew, "Cohen", be aware that David's sons were called "Cohanim" in 2 Samuel 8:18. They were obviously not "priests" because they came from the wrong tribe. But they were of the royal line that was ruler over Jerusalem, as Malkitzedek was also ruler over Jerusalem.

    Still no comment on the translations?
    Psalm 110 does not say, "you will be a king like Melchizedek."

    Genesis 14 (NASB95)
    18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.

    Further, Hebrews makes it clear what this portion of scripture is about.

    Hebrews 5 (NASB95)
    6 just as He says also in another passage, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
    7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
    8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
    9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
    10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

  12. #42
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Doulos View Post
    Psalm 132 is not a Psalm of David.
    Not sure I get the point here.


    Psalm 110 uses Adoni with cause since the focus here is not of the Messiah's godhood, but his Kingship and earthly authority.
    Why should one think that 110 is about the messiah? He's not mentioned.
    Though there is president to call the manifested presence of God by the name of Adoni as in Judges 6:13-14.
    "Adoni" in this verse in an angel. When Gideon refers to God he uses the term YHVH. When God speaks to him it uses the term YHVH.

    Most scholars don't think so either. And, the New Testament does not support your view. The Septuagint translates Psalm 110 the same as the NT does. Maybe its time for you to recalculate.
    Are you saying the Hebrew is incorrect? Or translating two different Hebrew words into the same Greek/English word is correct?

    As for Zechariah 6, I believe it clearly shows a high priest sitting on the throne in a symbolic act foreshadowing the Messiah.
    Yes, you obviously believe that. I just don't see how that follows from any proper translation.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  13. #43
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Doulos View Post
    Psalm 110 does not say, "you will be a king like Melchizedek."
    No, it says "you will be a Cohen like Malkitzedek". And David's sons were referred to as...Cohanim. Crazy, right?

    Further, Hebrews makes it clear what this portion of scripture is about.
    I am not Christian so I generally don't take NT verses as being binding on my beliefs. Although they are usually interesting.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Not sure I get the point here.
    The point is that David can't very well write a psalm so that he can sing it if he didn't write it in the first place.

    Why should one think that 110 is about the messiah? He's not mentioned.
    "Adoni" in this verse in an angel. When Gideon refers to God he uses the term YHVH. When God speaks to him it uses the term YHVH.
    Psalm 110 has been recognized as a messianic psalm. This is shown in the New Testament when Jesus uses it to explain to the pharisees that the Messiah is both the son of David and greater than him. Saul/Paul in the New Testament (also a pharisee) used it in connection with the Messiah. Further, both the Midrash on Psalms and the Babylonian Talmud recognize Psalm 110 as referencing the Messiah.

    Are you saying the Hebrew is incorrect? Or translating two different Hebrew words into the same Greek/English word is correct?

    Yes, you obviously believe that. I just don't see how that follows from any proper translation.
    If you don't believe me, then perhaps you'll listen to the Encyclopedia Judaica:

    When Zerubbabel, the grandson of King Jehoiachin of Judah, was appointed governor of the small Persian province of Judah, the prophets *Haggai and *Zechariah temporarily saw him as the one who could continue the Davidic dynasty (Hag. 2:20–23; Zech. 4:6–7; 6:9–14 (emending "Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest," to "Zerubbabel" in v. 11; cf. "the Shoot" in 3:8)); thus they kept alive the messianic expectation in Judah. Moreover, the strange type of symbolism that first appears in Zechariah 1:7–2:13 and 5:1–6:8, connected with the concept of an incredibly enlarged Jerusalem (Zech. 2:5–9), was later reechoed in the eschatological imagery of Daniel and the later Jewish writers.
    I assume you're hang up with the translation is keyed on the plural "crowns" in the passage? If so, this may well be the use of a majestic plural in indication that it is a royal crown verses a priestly crown.

  15. #45
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    Re: Throne of the high priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    No, it says "you will be a Cohen like Malkitzedek". And David's sons were referred to as...Cohanim. Crazy, right?

    I am not Christian so I generally don't take NT verses as being binding on my beliefs. Although they are usually interesting.
    I know Judaism is not monolithic but I do believe that the majority opinion on Psalm 110 is that "Cohen" refers to a very real priesthood, one established in Melchizedek before the Aaronic Priesthood (or as some interpret it taken from Melchizedek and re-established through Aaron).

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