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Thread: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

  1. #16
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    Careful. Jesus did not have His divine power while on earth. Rather, John 10:17-18
    "17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

    There's a big difference there.

    Hello Eyelog,

    I would respectfully disagree... Jesus refrained, but within His refraining He is still God. The disciples worshiped Jesus.

    Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea.26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid." 28 Peter said to Him, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." 29 And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?" 32 When they got into the boat, the wind stopped.33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"


    Jesus is 100% God; Jesus is 100% man. And as Jesus did 100% the Father's will.... He also did it of His own will...

    So in context....

    John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  2. #17
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    Hello Eyelog,

    I would respectfully disagree... Jesus refrained, but within His refraining He is still God. The disciples worshiped Jesus.

    Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea.26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid." 28 Peter said to Him, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." 29 And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?" 32 When they got into the boat, the wind stopped.33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"


    Jesus is 100% God; Jesus is 100% man. And as Jesus did 100% the Father's will.... He also did it of His own will...

    So in context....

    John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
    Hi, Redeemed. I agree that Jesus was God on earth. But Scripture is clear He set aside His divine attributes. All miracles were done by the power of the Spirit. After the Resurrection that is an entirely different matter.

    I completely concur Jesus is the Son of God and is God.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  3. #18
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner55 View Post
    I see your point. (after all, Lazarus was in Sheol for four days, and came out when Jesus called Him). Yet, Jesus did not simply rest in Abraham's bosom like every other righteous soul there, since He actually preached to the the spirits in prison--presumably sharing the Gospel with those whose captivity He would later lead captive. Obviously, Jesus possessed great authority from God, even in a state of death. My intended emphasis was not on His having dwelled there for three days, but rather His leaving after three days, and taking the keys of death and hell with Him when He left.
    I was mistaken to question whether Jesus was in His inherent power after He was raised from the dead. Of course He was. So, you are right about that. My point, in general, is supposed to be that Jesus shed His inherent deific power to become a human, and all miraculous activity prior to the resurrection was by the Holy Spirit, not by His inherent deity, though, indeed, He was and is the deity.

    So far as the indwelling of the Spirit keeping Him sinless, note that we have it too, and it does not keep us sinless. By genetics I was referring to the fact that His father was God, not a human. The curse of the sin nature is passed on, spiritually speaking, via the male, not the female. So, you have Jesus as a man just like the first Adam, with the indwelling of the Spirit, but the Father was in communion with Him from the start, and jesus was led by the Father/the Spirit. He obeyed the father primarily out of trusting in His promises. The Garden of Gethsemane is a great example. In fact, after He heals the ear, I see no further acts by the Spirit. Then, on the Cross, the indwelling Spirit leaves Him entirely, and the Father turns His back on Him. He cries out, having been forsaken. Yet, He remains on the Cross and continues to tough it out, using real, live human will power and no power of the Spirit and no inherent deific power, etc.

    Although you and I are describing the details differently, we certainly agree in general. God bless, brother. Yours is a great article in any event.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  4. #19
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    The basic idea of Jesus being both fully man as well as fully God shows that Jesus Christ is truly the Mediator between God and men in being and not just in function. If Jesus is really a man, then His being is permanently entwined with the "fate" of men. There is no going back. God has fused Himself to His own creation. Another ramification is that we can BE like Him since He has perfected the holy walk while still in the flesh.

    I find that most evangelicals have a hard time with the human aspect of Jesus. They are so focused on His divinity and ability to save, they forget that Jesus commands us to follow Him and do what He does...as the power of life in us through grace. How many believe in the empowering of the Spirit to walk as He walked and have a complete victory over sin?
    Formerly "Adullam" from other sites!


    Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.

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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Hi Redeemed,
    Yes, you're right. I did take a few liberties, and engaged in speculation with regard to Satan's thoughts. But I obviously intended them to be perceived in a colloquial sense, rather than an attempt to authoritatively and accurately portray what Satan was thinking. And don't misunderstand me. Certainly I welcome your feedback and comments, which help to refine my thoughts, and clarify points what may be misunderstood by others. I also value your friendship, and have a mutual love and respect for you. It's important to maintain the Biblical fidelity of my words by having them viewed objectively by others. And this purpose is served by the constructive criticism by those who take the time to read my stuff. As most people pass over posts of more than a few paragraphs, the very fact that you and and others even do read my writings is appreciated. If my response to your comments ever seem a rebuff, believe me, that's not my intent. I must admit to an occasional lapse into "defense mode," but I'm working on that. We may occasionally differ on some nuance because of our differing perspective, but that's okay, as long as we maintain the integrity of the fundamental tenets of our faith as the foundation we build and collaborate on.

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

  6. #21
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    My point, in general, is supposed to be that Jesus shed His inherent deific power to become a human, and all miraculous activity prior to the resurrection was by the Holy Spirit, not by His inherent deity, though, indeed, He was and is the deity.
    I agree with most of this view. As I pointed out in the article, there are instances in which Jesus Himself admitted nor only His lack of equal power with the Father, but also authority, and even knowledge of when He would return. Many people bristle at the inference that Jesus did not possess this fullness, but I think we should take Jesus' word for it. After His resurrection, He said that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him, which means He did not have it before that. Certainly, it existed within Him all along by virtue of the omnipotent and omniscient Spirit of God, but He did and said only as He was led by the Father within Him, not drawing upon the power autonomously. I think Paul said it best in his letter to the Philippians:

    You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal's death on a cross. (Phil 2:5-8 NLT)

    So far as the indwelling of the Spirit keeping Him sinless, note that we have it too, and it does not keep us sinless.
    True. But then we were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit from the moment of conception. Certainly however, Jesus did, by His innate righteousness and devotion to God, conquer sin and every temptation known to man--and then some. But somewhere along the line, we must account for Jesus having been "justified by the Spirit." (Perhaps that would make a good topic in the Bible discussion forum).

    By genetics I was referring to the fact that His father was God, not a human. The curse of the sin nature is passed on, spiritually speaking, via the male, not the female. So, you have Jesus as a man just like the first Adam, with the indwelling of the Spirit, but the Father was in communion with Him from the start, and Jesus was led by the Father/the Spirit. He obeyed the father primarily out of trusting in His promises. The Garden of Gethsemane is a great example. In fact, after He heals the ear, I see no further acts by the Spirit. Then, on the Cross, the indwelling Spirit leaves Him entirely, and the Father turns His back on Him. He cries out, having been forsaken. Yet, He remains on the Cross and continues to tough it out, using real, live human will power and no power of the Spirit and no inherent deific power, etc.

    Yes, as in the above verse, though Jesus existed eternally as God before the incarnation, and had divine prerogatives available to Him, it was necessary for Him to live, suffer, and die as a flesh and blood man--even though He did so of His own volition.

    Although you and I are describing the details differently, we certainly agree in general. God bless, brother. Yours is a great article in any event.
    Yeah, we're pretty much on the same page, for sure. It's gratifying to have my humble efforts appreciated, bro. And I very much appreciate both your feedback and the camaraderie we share. You know, I love to study the Bible, and I love to share what I learn. I haven't taught Sunday school in years, so this forum sort of gives me an outlet. Still, I think I'm going to back off the articles for a while. So many of the submissions on the Home page are mine, I'm starting to feel self-conscious.

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

  7. #22
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner55 View Post
    But somewhere along the line, we must account for Jesus having been "justified by the Spirit." (Perhaps that would make a good topic in the Bible discussion forum).


    I think I'm going to back off the articles for a while. So many of the submissions on the Home page are mine, I'm starting to feel self-conscious.
    You nailed it with the Philippeans passage.

    Not sure about the phrase justified by the Spirit, as i can't find it in Scripture and it is His blood which justiies. But you are speaking of JC Himself, and I understand your point that the Spirit helped Him stay righteous.

    So far as being the lone ranger on the articles, don't sweat it. If I were in the mood, I'd publish volumes o my own stuff or comment on virtually every forum post and my name would be everywhere. I just have variable time at times.

    But I think we'd we amazed at how much so many learn who say nothing publicly in response to articles, let alone the forum threads.

    You are a kindred spirit in the Lord, bro. God Bless.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  8. #23
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    Not sure about the phrase justified by the Spirit, as i can't find it in Scripture and it is His blood which justiies. But you are speaking of JC Himself, and I understand your point that the Spirit helped Him stay righteous.
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1Tim 3:16)

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

  9. #24
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    Hi, Redeemed. I agree that Jesus was God on earth. But Scripture is clear He set aside His divine attributes. All miracles were done by the power of the Spirit. After the Resurrection that is an entirely different matter.

    I completely concur Jesus is the Son of God and is God.
    Hi Eyelog,

    So if I understand your POV, are you saying that when Jesus heals the blind, when he knows the hearts of those who are faking their faith, when He calms the seas, it really wasn't He, but the Holy Spirit?
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  10. #25
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner55 View Post
    Hi Redeemed,
    Yes, you're right. I did take a few liberties, and engaged in speculation with regard to Satan's thoughts. But I obviously intended them to be perceived in a colloquial sense, rather than an attempt to authoritatively and accurately portray what Satan was thinking. And don't misunderstand me. Certainly I welcome your feedback and comments, which help to refine my thoughts, and clarify points what may be misunderstood by others. I also value your friendship, and have a mutual love and respect for you. It's important to maintain the Biblical fidelity of my words by having them viewed objectively by others. And this purpose is served by the constructive criticism by those who take the time to read my stuff. As most people pass over posts of more than a few paragraphs, the very fact that you and and others even do read my writings is appreciated. If my response to your comments ever seem a rebuff, believe me, that's not my intent. I must admit to an occasional lapse into "defense mode," but I'm working on that. We may occasionally differ on some nuance because of our differing perspective, but that's okay, as long as we maintain the integrity of the fundamental tenets of our faith as the foundation we build and collaborate on.

    Cool beans... keep those thoughts and studies coming!

    Blessings...
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  11. #26
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    Hi Eyelog,

    So if I understand your POV, are you saying that when Jesus heals the blind, when he knows the hearts of those who are faking their faith, when He calms the seas, it really wasn't He, but the Holy Spirit?
    As a member ofthe trinity, technically it was He who did it, as He is the Spirit and the FAther as one. But while the Son of Man on earth, He did not avail Himself of that identity by using His inherent powers as God. He did nothing on earth that was supernatural except in the way He would have us do it, by the leading and power of the HS. Yes, that's MO.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  12. #27
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner55 View Post
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1Tim 3:16)
    I thought I was doing the right search parameters, with several translations, to find it, but obviously I did not. Yours is the NKJV, apparently. Niv and NASB are "vindicated by the Spirit," so 1 Tim didn't even come up when I searched for justified and spirit. Sorry, man. You yourself are both justified and vindicated, not that I really thought you were in some kind of 'error.'

    On the other hand, I'm not sure what that phrase means exactly. You and I are justified or vindicated by the blood of Christ. That blood does not keep us from sinning. I'm not sure that Jesus being justified or vindicated by the Spirit means the Spirit kept Him from sinning, either.

    RAther, it was the Spirit who sent Him into the desert to be tempted, etc. There, He overcame the temptations of Satan via His trust in the Word, in the Father and His promises. No doubt, He had been prepared for such testing at other times in His lifetime, increasingly undergoing testings of obedience in the face of suffering and loss. you don't get better at that stuff if God does it all for you. Indeed, the ultimate test of His faith was going to the Cross. Again, I don't think the Spirit kept Him strong on the Cross as He sought to obey in staying up there and not callin down angels or fire from heaven, etc. Jesus was stripped of even the indwelling of the Spirit.

    So, I am not at all sure what to think about that phrase, except to say (a) you have already thought about it and probably have the answer, but (b) it seems to me the Spirit was more His teacher than His justifier. But we, too, do avoid sinning while 'in the Spirit,' walking in the Spirit, etc. WE have the Gal 5 promise to that effect. Perhaps you mean that, though that sounds more like empowerment than justification or even vindication.

    The problem is, how do we stay in the Spirit? I think Jesus stayed in the Spirit bc He not only constantly sought that relationship with the FAther in the three ways, but He had no sin nature to cause Him to desire to stop walking in the Spirit. We fail bc we don't do what Jesus did to get into and stay in the Spirit, (i) out of spiritual ignorance or (ii) out of sinful desires drawing us away. (i) is why we need discipleship and (ii) is why we need to purify our hearts, so we are not dipsuche, which is the condition I am saying Jesus never had.

    How's that for cryptic or obscure?

    ==============
    EDited point:

    Vindicated or justified by the Spirit, may mean no iniquity was found in Him, as the Spirit examined and tested Him. From that standpoint, the Spirit was far less the means to Jesus overcoming, and far more the verification means of God, that Jesus could be regarded as the sinless sacrifice.

    Also, the Spirit sanctifies us, but can't sanctify the One who is already sacrosanct. Right? But the Spirit sanctifies us in several ways, not least of which is by taking us through those desert experiences to be tested. Hebrews says Jesus learned obedience via suffering, but He was never obedient. So, what did He learn? He learned how much suffering it would take to go all the way to the Cross. That's what we have to learn, as we begin to embrace advanced sanctification. (That's what I spoke of in my last post in the Repentance thread, #66.)
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  13. #28
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    As a member ofthe trinity, technically it was He who did it, as He ias the Spirit and the FAther as one. But while the Son on Man on earth, He did not avail Himself of that identity by using his inherent powers as God. He did nothing on earth that was supernatural except in the way He would have us do it, by the leading and power of the HS.
    Hi Eyelog....

    I think you are going to need to be more specific for me.... For Jesus is fully God and fully man... And when Jesus walked on the water to the fishing boat, that was Jesus as God, for no man can walk on water and stand, for He gave that right to Peter for a moment, but Peter lost his 'focuser' and began to sink.

    When Jesus raised the dead, it was He as God not as man that gives life.

    Now I 100% agree that Jesus came as a babe and lived and died and was tempted as a man, that He hungered, and thirst, and cried with emotion.... but it was because He is God that He didn't fail into temptation, nor the grave could hold Him. He set aside his authority for sure in allowing the sin of man to do what sin must do towards Him, but he never set aside His Godness in who He is. He knew the hearts of those around Him; He fed the multitudes when there was little to pull from; he paid His taxes with a coin from a fish... How did He know it was there, if He were not God?

    So now to the Holy Spirit... We see and only see the Holy Spirit converge upon Jesus at the beginning of His ministry. Are you taking that time that Jesus was lead into the wilderness and back as being emblematic that it was not Jesus who did the work of the Father, but that of the Holy Spirit? If so, you need to show me within scriptures that Jesus was not God but human and thus it was the Holy Spirit's work???? The Holy Spirit testifies to the work of Christ.... For if it were the work of the Holy Spirit, then who testifies?

    For His Glory....
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  14. #29
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    Hi Eyelog....

    I think you are going to need to be more specific for me.... For Jesus is fully God and fully man... And when Jesus walked on the water to the fishing boat, that was Jesus as God, for no man can walk on water and stand, for He gave that right to Peter for a moment, but Peter lost his 'focuser' and began to sink.

    When Jesus raised the dead, it was He as God not as man that gives life.

    Now I 100% agree that Jesus came as a babe and lived and died and was tempted as a man, that He hungered, and thirst, and cried with emotion.... but it was because He is God that He didn't fail into temptation, nor the grave could hold Him. He set aside his authority for sure in allowing the sin of man to do what sin must do towards Him, but he never set aside His Godness in who He is. He knew the hearts of those around Him; He fed the multitudes when there was little to pull from; he paid His taxes with a coin from a fish... How did He know it was there, if He were not God?

    So now to the Holy Spirit... We see and only see the Holy Spirit converge upon Jesus at the beginning of His ministry. Are you taking that time that Jesus was lead into the wilderness and back as being emblematic that it was not Jesus who did the work of the Father, but that of the Holy Spirit? If so, you need to show me within scriptures that Jesus was not God but human and thus it was the Holy Spirit's work???? The Holy Spirit testifies to the work of Christ.... For if it were the work of the Holy Spirit, then who testifies?

    For His Glory....
    Hi Redeemed. I am so glad to converse with you.

    First, it appears you are saying that Jesus cannot be God if He is not walking around with all of His deific abilities and even using them at will. I don't agree with that, because the Scripture says:

    5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Philippians 2.
    From this and maybe a few other passages it is clear that Jesus intentionally came to earth in the form of a human being. This does not mean He stopped being God, but it does mean He had to fit Himself into space/time and have a frail human body with its human limitations. Was He still God in identity? Absolutely. But His powers by which He created the universe were somehow checked at the door, lest He not be a human being.

    Second, Jesus certainly could have done any miracle listed in the Bible by the power of the HS. Certainly walking on water and raising Lazarus was all done by the HS.

    Third, the whole point of Jesus becoming a man on earth was to do two things: (1) become our sinless savior and (2) become our example for how to live in obedience to God.

    Fourth, so far as the being our example for how to live in obedience to God, (A) He never said nor did anything the Father did not authorize or command - I can get the cites if you like. (B) He showed us how to walk in communion with God and obey attached to the vine, and even how to avail ourselves of the power of the HS. Jesus showed us how to walk in the Spirit. (C) If JC did all out of inherent power as God, then He would not be our example for how to do it. We would not be able to do it.

    Fifth, your example of Jesus commanding Peter to walk on water or giving the disciples authority to cast out demons and heal, etc., are examples of training the disciples to operate in and through the Spirit of God, and it was the Father who directed that such authority be given and trained in the disciples. I see no contradiction.

    Sixth, I sense this strong feeling you have that what made JC so special was that He was deific on earth. But what made Him special was that He was perfectly obedient to the Father, and became our example for how to do so.

    Seventh, JC was, of course, so special because He was sinless, but that is what it means to be perfectly obedient to the Father. But He accomplished that as a human, and not as God Himself. As i have been discussing with Sojourner, JC was unique in that He lacked the sin nature we have, having God as His biological father. But from there He obeyed based on His strong connection with the Father in relationship, and out of his faith in what the Father promised Him. He likely walked inthe Spirit most of the time, as we are commanded to do, but He did all it took to maintain that, and He was stripped of the Spirit on the Cross, and there He obeyed solely by faith in what the FAther had promised Him. No doubt about that. But in the desert, for example, I am pretty sure Jesus did not have the power of the Spirit making Him supernaturally able to obey God. The whole point was to obey by faith while under the duress of suffering and loss, which was the point of the Cross itself, in one sense.

    Eighth, you say it was because He was God that He overcame temptation and that the grave could not hold Him. My explanation above deals with the first concern. As to what He did after death, God the Father raised Him from the dead by the power of the Spirit. And He then gave Jesus all or most of His power and authority back, especially once He ascended and hit the throne. Paul wrote:

    Ephesians 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
    I am not arguing at all. I am just sharing my understanding of things based on study of the Scriptures. I have no agenda but to learn the truth, practice it, and help others to do the same.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  15. #30
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    Re: Article: The Humanity of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    I thought I was doing the right search parameters, with several translations, to find it, but obviously I did not. Yours is the NKJV, apparently. Niv and NASB are "vindicated by the Spirit," so 1 Tim didn't even come up when I searched for justified and spirit. Sorry, man. You yourself are both justified and vindicated, not that I really thought you were in some kind of 'error.'
    (Oh, I didn't think you doubted me). Regardless of the Bible translation we use, the original Greek word in 1 Tim 3:16 is dikaióō--essentially denoting the idea of both justification and vindication. Here is a link to the Biblos word study: http://concordances.org/greek/1344.htm

    We have to remember that Jesus was born without sin because He was conceived by the Spirit of God; so His circumstances do not completely parallel our own. Yet, Jesus is fully man, so in order to be the means of our righteousness before God, He had to possess righteousness beyond that of His own human capability. Since He is as human as you or I, there had to be a divine source to begin with, beyond the flesh. And that could only be the Spirit infused in His humanity from the moment of conception. Certainly, Jesus lived a life free from sin, but had He not had a sinless starting point, his goodness and obedience to God would have availed Him no greater sinlessness than that of Abraham or Noah. So, I guess what it boils down to is, Jesus was born without sin because God was His Father, instead of a human being with Adam's tainted blood--just as Adam was created without sin. Yet, unlike Adam, Jesus fully maintained that sinlessness by His righteousness before God. That's why Jesus is called "the last Adam." (1 Cor 15:45).

    On the other hand, I'm not sure what that phrase means exactly. You and I are justified or vindicated by the blood of Christ. That blood does not keep us from sinning. I'm not sure that Jesus being justified or vindicated by the Spirit means the Spirit kept Him from sinning, either.
    So, I am not at all sure what to think about that phrase, except to say (a) you have already thought about it and probably have the answer, but (b) it seems to me the Spirit was more His teacher than His justifier. But we, too, do avoid sinning while 'in the Spirit,' walking in the Spirit, etc. WE have the Gal 5 promise to that effect. Perhaps you mean that, though that sounds more like empowerment than justification or even vindication.
    Well, I can only take the words "vindicated by the Spirit" for what they seem to say: that the humanity of Jesus--the flesh in which God robed Himself, was made holy by the Holy Spirit. I think you would agree that without the Spirit within us, all our best efforts at being righteous are in vain. It is the Spirit that sanctifies, justifies, and vindicates us all. Certainly the Holy Spirit is our source of empowerment, and victory in overcoming all things. But unless we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus--which was made sinless by the spirit of God, and we ourselves are sanctified by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are lost in sin. The point is, the humanity of Jesus, which must include His blood, had to be sanctified and made sinless before it could be used to sanctify and make us sinless.

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

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