we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

[ross3421]

These are the ones left sill alive after the tribulation. Left can be seen as remain as in the remainder.

Where is scripture does it show some surviving the tribulation (apart from the 144,000 whom still do not cheat death)?

In addition if you see the alive and remain apart from the dead in Christ then they would not be included with this group. Look at the wording, it says the dead in Christ rise first THEN.... so by your interpetation you would have the dead in Christ rise first then the alive and remain would be resurrected apart from them. Doesn't make sense, therefore the alive and remain need to be part of the dead in Christ.

1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Nooo These people don't get caught up/ Raptured The living ones in the field and grinding the mill are not dead. They are alive when caught up.

You have heard the phrase...no one gets out of here alive!

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

[Luciano Vinci]

If one reads the entire context of Matt. 24 it is easy to see that those "left behind" are the believers.

The wicked are "taken" (destroyed). The important word is "they". "They" were eating, "they" were drinking, "they" were marrying and giving in marriage, and "they" did not know until the flood came and "took them" all away. (Mt. 24:38-39) Noah and his family knew of the coming destruction, "they" (the wicked) did not. And lest anyone think that flood "took them" refers to Noah as kind of a raptured out analogy, you only need to look at the parallel verse in Lk. 17:27 where the same verse says the flood came and "destroyed" them all.

Thus the context calls for us to understand that "taken" means "destroyed". So when He tells us that one shall be "taken" and the other "left". It is Noah and his family that stay in the earth and it is the wicked that are "taken" or "destroyed".

Taking that principle to 1 Thess. 4:16-17, I believe "remain" becomes much more important than just another word for alive. I think there is some perseverance intended. As in Mt. 24:13, those who "endure" until the "end" shall be saved.

[divaD]

If one reads the entire context of Matt. 24 it is easy to see that those "left behind" are the believers.

The wicked are "taken" (destroyed). The important word is "they". "They" were eating, "they" were drinking, "they" were marrying and giving in marriage, and "they" did not know until the flood came and "took them" all away. (Mt. 24:38-39) Noah and his family knew of the coming destruction, "they" (the wicked) did not. And lest anyone think that flood "took them" refers to Noah as kind of a raptured out analogy, you only need to look at the parallel verse in Lk. 17:27 where the same verse says the flood came and "destroyed" them all.

Thus the context calls for us to understand that "taken" means "destroyed". So when He tells us that one shall be "taken" and the other "left". It is Noah and his family that stay in the earth and it is the wicked that are "taken" or "destroyed".

Taking that principle to 1 Thess. 4:16-17, I believe "remain" becomes much more important than just another word for alive. I think there is some perseverance intended. As in Mt. 24:13, those who "endure" until the "end" shall be saved.

I think you have it backwards tho. At the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye, the righteous who remain alive, they are taken to be caught up in the clouds with the rest who rose first. Those that are left behind would be these...and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth....Revelation 11:18. This would be after the 7th or last trumpet has sounded. But there's still the matter of Zech 14:5 being fulfilled....and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. This happens after everyone has been changed, and the fact Jesus would be descending on the mount of Olives in order to begin destroying those which destroy the earth, meaning the promised land more than likely.

[DurbanDude]

1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So what I hear you saying is that there are some Christians which survive the second coming?? .

Of course we all survive the second coming! This is when we get our resurrection bodies and live forever so yes we do survive. I believe that there will be a 3.5 year persecution period just before the second coming. All those Christians who are still alive because they have survived the persecution will be resurrected at the second coming. But the dead in Christ rise first.

[DurbanDude]

Not really. Better translation than "left" is "remain" as in KJV. Those that are alive, by default, remain after the others have passed on.

When the dead in Christ rise, then those still alive are 'caught up' or ""our being assembled to meet him". This happens long after the "falling away" of the church happens. When the dead in Christ rise, everyone else that ever lived will also rise in that same hour.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29)

Is this definitely a 60 minute hour? The reason I ask this, is that the precedent set in John 5:25 is that the word "hour" can mean a very long figurative period. It is therefore possible that the hour mentioned just 3 verses later in verse 28 is also a very long figurative period:

5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

[Raybob]

Is this definitely a 60 minute hour? The reason I ask this, is that the precedent set in John 5:25 is that the word "hour" can mean a very long figurative period. It is therefore possible that the hour mentioned just 3 verses later in verse 28 is also a very long figurative period:

5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The hour of John 5:25 is the first coming, when He even said, "And now is..". The hour of John 5:28 is the second coming, at judgement day. I doubt if there's any way to measure how long that last hour is becuase you won't be able to measure time any longer, because the heavens will melt with fervent heat. With no moon and stars or sun, there'll be no more way to calculate time any longer. At that time, we really know what time it is, because no one will ever again care.

[ross3421]

Of course we all survive the second coming! This is when we get our resurrection bodies and live forever so yes we do survive. I believe that there will be a 3.5 year persecution period just before the second coming. All those Christians who are still alive because they have survived the persecution will be resurrected at the second coming. But the dead in Christ rise first.

Confused.......

To be resurrected one must die first. So if you think some survive the great trib and then are resurrected without dying your mistaken. So we do not survive persecution in the sense of the first death but of course we survive the second.

What are you saying?

[ross3421]

I propose that BOTH the one taken and the one left were first resurrected and judged. Thus AFTER one is taken (wicked/goat) is cast away with the other (godly/sheep) being left to inherit the kingdom.

For if we read the next chapter it speaks of the kingdom of heaven resurrection and judgement.

[DurbanDude]

Confused.......

To be resurrected one must die first. So if you think some survive the great trib and then are resurrected without dying your mistaken. So we do not survive persecution in the sense of the first death but of course we survive the second.

What are you saying?

No not everyone has to die first. Some are alive at the resurrection and our currently mortal and dying bodies get resurrected into immortal/eternal bodies at the second coming. I have the standard post-trib view on the resurrection, nothing complicated about this at all.

[Adstars]

Where is scripture does it show some surviving the tribulation (apart from the 144,000 whom still do not cheat death)?

The scriptures i quote declare it plainly.

1 Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]

If the rapture only included the dead then Paul would only need to mention corruptible must put on incorruption there would be no need for him to mention
mortal must put on immortality but he mentions both corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality note the and.

Also When Jesus comes in His Glory the nations of this earth will become His nations and He will rule them with an Iron Rod. Do you think Jesus will be ruling the saints with an Iron Rod? Or the nations who are left?

Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

So Matthew 24 is stating that the days of the tribulation will be shortened to save some flesh.

Also Jesus proclaimed in His parable of the minas that His good servants will be given leadership over cities depending on how well they did with their stewardship with the minas (gospel message) Who will the saints be ruling during those times? Other saints? i think not.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So if the Saints are Reigning with Christ who are they Reigning over? why the nations that Jesus is ruling over with an Iron Rod. So at the end of the 1000 years Revelation tells us that satan shall be released from the bottomless pit to go out and deceive these nations to bring them Gog and Magog to attack Jerusalem to surround it and the Camp of the Saints.

Revelation 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Satan is not going to be released to go out and deceive the resurrected Saints, who shall never be deceived again after they are given their eternal bodies 1000 years earlier. Satan is released to go out and deceive the flesh nations that have been under the rule of Jesus and the Saints for 1000 years.

In addition if you see the alive and remain apart from the dead in Christ then they would not be included with this group. Look at the wording, it says the dead in Christ rise first THEN.... so by your interpetation you would have the dead in Christ rise first then the alive and remain would be resurrected apart from them. Doesn't make sense, therefore the alive and remain need to be part of the dead in Christ.

The dead rising first is relative. This will all happen in a twinkling of an eye. There will be just a moment in time between the two groups.

1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes but this will not be years apart or even hours apart this will all happen in a very short period of time.

You have heard the phrase...no one gets out of here alive!

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Yes and when those that remain and are alive are caught up they will be transformed into their new eternal bodies in that process their old flesh bodies will die.

So yes all the saints carnal bodies will die before the rapture.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[ross3421]

No not everyone has to die first. Some are alive at the resurrection and our currently mortal and dying bodies get resurrected into immortal/eternal bodies at the second coming. I have the standard post-trib view on the resurrection, nothing complicated about this at all.

Let me get this straight......you are saying you don't have to die the first death to be resurrected? There is only the resurrection of the dead not living! Thus one becomes alive from death AFTER the resurrection.

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


You are making it complicated my friend.

[divaD]

There is only the resurrection of the dead not living!

That's simply not true. The bodily resurrection means getting a new glorified body that can never die. Both the alive and the dead are mortals. No one is in one of these glorified bodies as of yet, besides Jesus of course. Both the alive and the dead in Christ will rise, be changed from mortal to immortal. The fact that those alive lose their mortality once Christ returns, that infers that that part of them is dead and gone forever, which could be the same thing as a first death. A part of them had to die in order to live forever. Since they would no longer be mortals, then I would think their mortality vanished away forever. I see no reason that mortal equals first death, why that wouldn't be true.

[ross3421]

The scriptures i quote declare it plainly.

If the rapture only included the dead then Paul would only need to mention corruptible must put on incorruption there would be no need for him to mention
mortal must put on immortality but he mentions both corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality note the and.

Paul earlier states this.......is he confused? he says all die but then says some do not and that one MUST die to be raised??

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Also When Jesus comes in His Glory the nations of this earth will become His nations and He will rule them with an Iron Rod. Do you think Jesus will be ruling the saints with an Iron Rod? Or the nations who are left?

Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Do you really think he is gathering all nations that are then living on the earth? No, the gathering is of all the nations from the the graves. This is the resurrection.

As for ruling the nations with a rod of iron, this gets a bit deeper. The "saints" of course will not need the rod and live inside the kingdom walls however those which inherit the land (144,000 Israel) will have off spring which will be rule with this rod. See EZ 37.38.

Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

So Matthew 24 is stating that the days of the tribulation will be shortened to save some flesh.

The flesh being "saved" is the 144,000 so they can come to repentence and preserve the promise to Israel. Israel is the elect. God rests his fury upon Israel that a remnant may be saved. Note however they still are killed but not after they repent. They are the dry bones which are resurrected to inherit the land in the kingdom.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So if the Saints are Reigning with Christ who are they Reigning over? why the nations that Jesus is ruling over with an Iron Rod. So at the end of the 1000 years Revelation tells us that satan shall be released from the bottomless pit to go out and deceive these nations to bring them Gog and Magog to attack Jerusalem to surround it and the Camp of the Saints.

Revelation 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Satan is not going to be released to go out and deceive the resurrected Saints, who shall never be deceived again after they are given their eternal bodies 1000 years earlier. Satan is released to go out and deceive the flesh nations that have been under the rule of Jesus and the Saints for 1000 years.

There is not a literal 1000 years. But this does not need to be proved to disprove the rapture.

The dead rising first is relative. This will all happen in a twinkling of an eye. There will be just a moment in time between the two groups.

Yes and when those that remain and are alive are caught up they will be transformed into their new eternal bodies in that process their old flesh bodies will die.

So yes all the saints carnal bodies will die before the rapture.[/QUOTE]

Ok, it then really boils down to the above. Though I do see you agree there needs to be death first. Now does scripture show that there are two gatherings of the godly. One from the dead in the grave and then after one from the living on the earth?

No where will you find this teaching in scripture to support the alive represents living on the earth In thess 4 which are raptured after some are resurrected. The dead in Christ ARE those which are alive and remain (after being resurrected).

[ross3421]

That's simply not true. The bodily resurrection means getting a new glorified body that can never die. Both the alive and the dead are mortals. No one is in one of these glorified bodies as of yet, besides Jesus of course. Both the alive and the dead in Christ will rise, be changed from mortal to immortal. The fact that those alive lose their mortality once Christ returns, that infers that that part of them is dead and gone forever, which could be the same thing as a first death. A part of them had to die in order to live forever. Since they would no longer be mortals, then I would think their mortality vanished away forever. I see no reason that mortal equals first death, why that wouldn't be true.

What do the following verses mean to you?

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

The verse should be telling you.....

1. All die physically as we are speaking of the resurrection of the dead.
2. They are not made alive until they are raised from the dead in their order (of resurrection)
3. Paul confirmation that this does not and cannot happen unless one is physically dead (like Christ as the example).

[DurbanDude]

Let me get this straight......you are saying you don't have to die the first death to be resurrected? There is only the resurrection of the dead not living! Thus one becomes alive from death AFTER the resurrection.

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
.

"they that are Christ's" includes the living and the dead in Christ. At the resurrection the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive will join them.

The verse about Adam is talking about the sin that brought spiritual death and mortality to mankind, Christ brought spiritual life and immortality. Before we became Christians, even though we were not physically dead we had this spiritual death and physical destiny of death (mortality), and this is the death we have been saved from through Christ.