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Thread: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

  1. #31
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Paul earlier states this.......is he confused? he says all die but then says some do not and that one MUST die to be raised??

    1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    I have already stated that, upon the rapture the living who take part their old flesh bodies will die in the process of being transformed into their eternal perfect bodies.



    Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    Do you really think he is gathering all nations that are then living on the earth? No, the gathering is of all the nations from the the graves. This is the resurrection.
    The book of Revelation clearly states that only the Saints will take part in the first Resurrection and that other people shall not be raised from the dead till the 1000 years have past.

    Revelation 20
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



    As for ruling the nations with a rod of iron, this gets a bit deeper. The "saints" of course will not need the rod and live inside the kingdom walls however those which inherit the land (144,000 Israel) will have off spring which will be rule with this rod. See EZ 37.38.
    The scriptures does not say he will rule Israel with an Iron Rod it says Nations..

    Revelation 19
    15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.

    The 144,000 are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel 12,000 from each the remnant.



    The flesh being "saved" is the 144,000 so they can come to repentence and preserve the promise to Israel. Israel is the elect. God rests his fury upon Israel that a remnant may be saved. Note however they still are killed but not after they repent. They are the dry bones which are resurrected to inherit the land in the kingdom.
    The 144,000 are innocents. Innocents do not need to come to repentance. The 144,000 will not be killed.

    Revelation 7
    4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed

    Revelation 14
    1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    So no talk of repentance here. They are without fault.



    There is not a literal 1000 years. But this does not need to be proved to disprove the rapture.
    I believe there is a literal 1000 years. Just because the catholic church wanted to "spiritualise"?? it into just a long period of time does not make it so.



    Yes and when those that remain and are alive are caught up they will be transformed into their new eternal bodies in that process their old flesh bodies will die.

    So yes all the saints carnal bodies will die before the rapture.
    Ok, it then really boils down to the above. Though I do see you agree there needs to be death first. Now does scripture show that there are two gatherings of the godly. One from the dead in the grave and then after one from the living on the earth?
    It shows a gathering at the second coming of Jesus where the dead saints and the ones who are alive and remain will be caught up in transformed bodies to meet the Lord and this will happen in a twinkling of an eye.



    No where will you find this teaching in scripture to support the alive represents living on the earth In thess 4 which are raptured after some are resurrected. The dead in Christ ARE those which are alive and remain (after being resurrected).
    Yes there are scriptures that support that there will be living saints at the time of the return of the Messiah and they shall be caught up to meet Him. This is the scripture we have been showing you here in this thread.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days

  2. #32
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    "they that are Christ's" includes the living and the dead in Christ. At the resurrection the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive will join them.
    The dead in Christ ARE the alive and remain resurrected. I know it is hard to see when we have been brain washed to see two different groups in the passage.

    The verse about Adam is talking about the sin that brought spiritual death and mortality to mankind, Christ brought spiritual life and immortality. Before we became Christians, even though we were not physically dead we had this spiritual death and physical destiny of death (mortality), and this is the death we have been saved from through Christ.
    There is really no such thing as a "dead" spirit or spiritual death. It is impossible. Spirits never die.

    It should be obvious to the reader that Paul is speaking of physical death as he also speaks of a resurrection which pertains to a dead body. To believe Paul is speaking of spiritual death is a perversion of the scriptures to say the least.


    1co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    1co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    1co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    1co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    1co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    1co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    1co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    1co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    1co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    In Adam all die is physical.

  3. #33
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Adstars View Post
    I have already stated that, upon the rapture the living who take part their old flesh bodies will die in the process of being transformed into their eternal perfect bodies.
    I as I have stated the rapture of the living is non scriptural.


    The book of Revelation clearly states that only the Saints will take part in the first Resurrection and that other people shall not be raised from the dead till the 1000 years have past.
    No other book shows a seprate resurrection a 1000 years latter..... go figure does that no raise an eye brow? It should! Then one needs to question whether the 1000 years are literal.

    The 144,000 are innocents. Innocents do not need to come to repentance. The 144,000 will not be killed.
    They are not innocent remember there is none rightoues no not one. They are protected so they may have time to repent from their evil. They are vigins for they did not commit fornication with the whore and receive her mark. Yes they will be killed as all must die the first death due to sin. If some do not have to die then some did not have sin, is this what you are preaching to the lost? The 144,000 are not excluded from death.

    Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1

    Eze 5:12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
    Eze 5:13 Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.


    I believe there is a literal 1000 years.
    There is no purpose for a literal 1000 years, anyway for there to be a literal 1000 years the following needs to happen which is not the case.

    1. There a multiple resurrection of the godly which scriptures do not support.
    2. There is a 1000 years between resurrections of godly and ungodly which scriptures do not support
    3. Heaven and earth are NOT destroyed at the second coming which scriptures do not support.
    4. Some survive the second coming and then populate still the old earth which scriptures do not support.
    5. That there are two different little seasons.
    6. That there are two different great wars.
    7. That the bottomless pit is opened and closed twice.
    8. That the world is deceived two different times each culminating in a great war.
    9. That Christ failed at the second coming to conquer death at Satan was victorious..

  4. #34
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I know it is hard to see when we have been brain washed to see two different groups in the passage.




    Brain washed? LOL. No one had to brain wash me. I came to my own conclusions about that passage a long time ago. Didn't need any help from anyone to understand that passage. Can one be brain washed via themselves? My guess would be the same for the other countless billions who have seen it this way as well, for ages now even...they too didn't need anyone's help understanding this perfectly clear passage. 2 groups there, not one. Ironically, they do all become one group after the fact tho.

  5. #35
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Brain washed? LOL. No one had to brain wash me. I came to my own conclusions about that passage a long time ago. Didn't need any help from anyone to understand that passage.
    I seriously doubt that you came to that conclusion "without" hearing about the rapture prior unless you read this verse before any others.

    Other scriptures state that we must die due to sin. The Romans road which no doubt you would have heard before I Thess 4. Thus IF you did not hear about the rapture you would then read the verse with this understanding and that there would be no way a person could survive death. In addition, Christ would have shown you the example in himself also giving expectations one must die.

    No, you must have at least heard about the "alive and remain" being spoken of living persons on earth prior to your own conclusions. Or maybe you have not read the other scriptures??? Clearly one living and escaping death goes against other scriptures!

    The dead in Christ ARE the alive and remain resurrected.

    1th 4:16 For the Lord himself (himself meaning it will be him not that he is alone) shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (7th trump): and the dead in Christ shall rise firstresurrection upon his return)
    1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain (Paul is speaking of himself, those he is talking, and those whom will die throughout the ages) shall be caught up together with them (those which are already in the graves) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    If you have read the other scriptures first you would have had this understanding about what is meant by "alive".....whereby noting alive is from the grave upon resurrection.

    1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.



    DivaD though you may deny it, one MUST come to I Thess 4 with a preconceived notion about who the "alive" is for if the other scriptures were read first then one would come to a different conclusion. I am a perfect example of the brain washing. Prior to being born again I never heard of such a thing as the rapture. I intrinsicaly like most humans knew ashes to ashes theology. It was not until my conversion and attending a Baptist church did I hear of this rapture and of course I heard about this I Thess 4 supporting it and assumed the alive was also living folks. It was not until I washed myself from preconceived notions gathering other scriptures was I able to see this truth among others, it was difficult to see especially going against all those which one had been listening and learning from. I know this is where you are at, I would not say this unless I was too on the other side of the argument at one time myself.

  6. #36
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I as I have stated the rapture of the living is non scriptural.




    No other book shows a seprate resurrection a 1000 years latter..... go figure does that no raise an eye brow? It should! Then one needs to question whether the 1000 years are literal.



    They are not innocent remember there is none rightoues no not one. They are protected so they may have time to repent from their evil. They are vigins for they did not commit fornication with the whore and receive her mark. Yes they will be killed as all must die the first death due to sin. If some do not have to die then some did not have sin, is this what you are preaching to the lost? The 144,000 are not excluded from death.

    Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1

    Eze 5:12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
    Eze 5:13 Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.




    There is no purpose for a literal 1000 years, anyway for there to be a literal 1000 years the following needs to happen which is not the case.

    1. There a multiple resurrection of the godly which scriptures do not support.
    2. There is a 1000 years between resurrections of godly and ungodly which scriptures do not support
    3. Heaven and earth are NOT destroyed at the second coming which scriptures do not support.
    4. Some survive the second coming and then populate still the old earth which scriptures do not support.
    5. That there are two different little seasons.
    6. That there are two different great wars.
    7. That the bottomless pit is opened and closed twice.
    8. That the world is deceived two different times each culminating in a great war.
    9. That Christ failed at the second coming to conquer death at Satan was victorious..
    You are denying that the Book of Revelation is the inspired word of God. This alone leads me to discontinue this discussion with you. The book of revelation is a direct revelation from Jesus through John to the Body of Christ it is the inspired word of God period.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days

  7. #37
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    Thanks for all the replies to the OP, i've had a thought since the OP, just today in fact, I was wondering if only some Christians are raptured after the man of lawlessness is revealed but before the time of wrath (those that are ready, the virgins with oil in their lamps) and the remaining Christians go through the time of wrath. When the man of lawlessness is revealed the Christians who are wise (with oil in their lamps) would be watching for the return of Jesus but they wouldn’t know the day or hour. The believers that are raptured would be the ones that are ‘left’ (Matthew 24:36-41) because as in the days of Noah it was the ones that were left (who went into the ark) that were saved. So the 'still alive and left' in 1 Thessalonians 4 would be still alive because they are still alive at the time of the rapture and are left because they are raptured. what do you think?

  8. #38
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    I believe all Christians will be raptured when the time comes. No Christian will be subject to Gods wrath. If any christians are then they will be false Christians. Now the wrath may start before the rapture but Christians will be protected through it.

    Psalm 91
    7 A thousand may fall at your side,
    And ten thousand at your right hand;
    But it shall not come near you.
    8 Only with your eyes shall you look,
    And see the reward of the wicked.

    9 Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge,
    Even the Most High, your dwelling place,
    10 No evil shall befall you,
    Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling;
    11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,
    To keep you in all your ways.
    12 In their hands they shall bear you up,
    Lest you dash your foot against a stone.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days

  9. #39
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    Re: we who are still alive and are left in 1 Thes 4

    The verb for taken in Matt. 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken" is the greek word paralambanō, which always refers to something taken to one's possession, which means that those taken in the passage has to be those that are raptured.

    I believe those who are left are also represented in the parable of the wise & foolish virgins.

    The word for take in Matt. 23:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." is the greek word airō, which is quite fitting, IMO.

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