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Thread: The 4th horseman?

  1. #1

    The 4th horseman?

    We all know of the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. The question I pose is simple could the 4th horseman be the green movement/environmentalism? The reason I ask this is because the word is chloros which is the we get chlorophyll from. To put it simply chlorophyll is the chemical that gives the leaves of plants their green color. Now if you look around at what the green movement is doing to society it is easy to see how much control over the general public the government is gaining through the whole green movement taking place around the world.

    I know alot of people believe the 4th horseman is islam but I just dont buy that because islam has been around for quite some time and according to the timeline the bible gives we are very close to the end when the 4th horseman finally appears. I know some might not understand what I am talking about so let me give a brief run down of the 4 horsemen. Many believe each horseman represents a different spirit of humanity and together they will lead humanity into the clutches of satan. The first horseman (white) is Religion (some say the catholic church) the 2nd (red) horseman is Communism/Socialism the 3rd horseman (black) is Capitalism.

    Personally I feel the 4th horseman is environmentalism but there are many people out there that feel its islam so I would like know u guys view on the topic.


    Unrelated to the topic but ya I joined these boards just so I can ask the question. I love bible prophecies because its one of the few areas of biblical study where you can see the bible literally unfolding in mainstream news.

  2. #2
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    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by prez420 View Post
    We all know of the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. The question I pose is simple could the 4th horseman be the green movement/environmentalism? The reason I ask this is because the word is chloros which is the we get chlorophyll from. To put it simply chlorophyll is the chemical that gives the leaves of plants their green color. Now if you look around at what the green movement is doing to society it is easy to see how much control over the general public the government is gaining through the whole green movement taking place around the world.

    I know alot of people believe the 4th horseman is islam but I just dont buy that because islam has been around for quite some time and according to the timeline the bible gives we are very close to the end when the 4th horseman finally appears. I know some might not understand what I am talking about so let me give a brief run down of the 4 horsemen. Many believe each horseman represents a different spirit of humanity and together they will lead humanity into the clutches of satan. The first horseman (white) is Religion (some say the catholic church) the 2nd (red) horseman is Communism/Socialism the 3rd horseman (black) is Capitalism.

    Personally I feel the 4th horseman is environmentalism but there are many people out there that feel its islam so I would like know u guys view on the topic.


    Unrelated to the topic but ya I joined these boards just so I can ask the question. I love bible prophecies because its one of the few areas of biblical study where you can see the bible literally unfolding in mainstream news.
    Hi, welcome.

    The first four horseman are four kings which will one day prevade the earth. Each king will rule over 1/4 each. These four kings parallel the four beasts and are the same. Now the fourth then will be stronger than the others and take rule over the kingdom and it is this 4th king whereby the little horn wil arise ie the AntiChrist.

    So no it is not Islam. They are kingdoms but specifically kings of a kingdom.

    I know this will bring about more questions.

  3. #3
    Hey prez420, welcome to the forum. I'll tackle the four horses in the order John reveals them:

    The first horseman (white) is Religion (some say the catholic church)
    There are three things one must notice when reading about the rider of the white horse:

    1. Read through the Revelation and keep track of John's usage of the color "white". Every single time the color "white" is used, it is attached to something or someone that is righteous. John never says that the first horse is representing anything evil, so being consistent with the rest of the book, the rider of the white horse must be holy or righteous.

    2. Read through the Revelation and keep track of John's usage of the word "crowns". Actually, to be more accurate, find a Greek version of the book and keep track of John's usage of the Greek word "stephanos". Every single time the word "stephanos" is used, it is attached to something or someone that is victorious in a holy sense. (The only exception is in chapter 9, when "stephanos" is used in a simile.) Again, John never says that the first horse is representing anything evil, so being consistent with the rest of the book, the rider of the white horse, who is given a "stephanos" crown, must be holy or righteous.

    3. Read through the Revelation and keep track of John's usage of the word "conquer" or "overcome". In the Greek, these two verbs are the exact same word, and the majority of the time the action is attributed to the righteous. Following the majority of uses, when John says that the first horseman goes out "conquering and to conquer", there is no necessity to interpret this negatively.

    Since the first horseman has two items (the color "white", and the "stephanos" crown) that are absolutely only ever attributed to holy or righteous things/people in the Revelation, and a third item (the action of "conquering") that is attributed to the holy or righteous the majority of the time... the rider of the white horse must therefore be representing something or someone that is holy or righteous, not something evil or corrupt.

    You will note that, in chapters 2-3, the faithful Christians are promised to be clothed in "white" and given "stephanos" crowns should they "conquer". All three of the items that are described for the first horseman are commanded of the Christians. In other parts of the book, all three of these items are attributed to Christ himself. The white horseman must be representing either the Christian community as a whole, or Christ. However, we can narrow this down another step.

    All four of the horsemen are personifications, not individual persons. As such, the first horseman cannot be representing Christ specifically, but more likely the Christian community as a whole. But, to get more specific, the horsemen are personifications of events and ideas, not people. The first horseman, then, is representing the action of the Christian community going out into the world... but why?

    The rider of the white horse represents the gospel spreading into the world.

    the 2nd (red) horseman is Communism/Socialism
    I don't want to sound rude, but you're straying right into un-Biblical speculation.

    John clearly says that the rider of the red horse represents the absence of peace, and the presence of warfare. He says nothing about Socialist/Communist government.

    the 3rd horseman (black) is Capitalism.
    Again, this is wild speculation.

    John clearly says that the rider of the black horse represents famine. Not capitalism.

    The question I pose is simple could the 4th horseman be the green movement/environmentalism?
    No. Because John tells us who the fourth horseman is: "Death, and the Grave followed after him." The horse is colored green because John is portraying it as a sickly, decaying color... like death. John also clearly says that the fourth horseman kills people through plagues, famines, and wild beasts.

    Nothing in the text could lead to the conclusions that you're coming to.



    Grace and peace to you from our God and his Son.

  4. #4

    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    1. Read through the Revelation and keep track of John's usage of the color "white". Every single time the color "white" is used, it is attached to something or someone that is righteous. John never says that the first horse is representing anything evil, so being consistent with the rest of the book, the rider of the white horse must be holy or righteous.
    I've heard that a lot, and it might be correct, but it seems to me more likely that the four horseman are a set, and represent 4 similar or related things: conquest, civil conflict, famine, disease. A lot has been written on both interpetations.

    I agree with what you say about the other 3 horses.

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    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    but it seems to me more likely that the four horseman are a set,
    Correct. It would not be logical for one to be good and the other 3 evil....... They are a set of 4 evil kings which will befall the earth.

    and represent 4 similar or related things: conquest, civil conflict, famine, disease. A lot has been written on both interpetations.
    They are four kings which each rule over 1/4 of the world. Why do I say this? Well actually these 4 are the 4 beasts which are seen rising in Rev 13and Dan 7 and we see three clues, 1 Dan states these beasts are four kings, 2. The four beasts of God present these first four seals, 3. We see the fourth beast ruling over 1/4.

    Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

    Da 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    The four beasts are the first four seals.

    Lion

    Re 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
    Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    Bear

    Re 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
    Re 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

    Leopard

    Re 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
    Re 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

    Beast

    Re 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
    Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    Note that this beast as another following him....... the little horn.

  6. #6

    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Read through the Revelation and keep track of John's usage of the color "white". Every single time the color "white" is used, it is attached to something or someone that is righteous. John never says that the first horse is representing anything evil, so being consistent with the rest of the book, the rider of the white horse must be holy or righteous.
    This is where I disagree. I believe there is a somewhat of a paralled with Revelationi 6 and Matthew 24. Here is how I see it.
    "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." - Revelation 6:2
    "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." - Matthew 24:5

    I believe the one on the White horse is the AntiChrist. This will be the ultimate deception being he will sit in the Temple and claim to be God himself. (2 Thes 2)

    "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." - Rev 6:4
    "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." - Matthew 24:6

    "And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand." - Rev 6:5
    "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." - Matthew 24:7

    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." - Revelation 6:8
    "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." - Matthew 24:9

    You see it is the Lamb(Christ) opening the seals so this is not Christ in Revelation 6:2.... Christ don't return until Revelation 19 at the end of the Tribulation period.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by thedee
    I believe the one on the White horse is the AntiChrist. This will be the ultimate deception being he will sit in the Temple and claim to be God himself. (2 Thes 2)
    1. Every single use of the color "white" Revelation is attached to an example of righteousness. If this is not true, then Revelation 6.2 is literally the only time the color is used out of consistency. You must prove from the text of Revelation 6.2 that John is using this color out of character. Your only way to do this is assert that the rider is wicked a priori, not from the text itself.

    2. Every single use of the stephanos crown in Revelation is attached to an example of holy victory. (The only exception to this is when the stephanos crown in a simile regarding something else's color.) Prove, using the text of Revelation, that the stephanos crown in 6.2 is being used out of consistency. Again, this is impossible to do unless it is assumed a priori, in which case it is not "proven".

    3. Prove, using the text of Revelation, that the rider of the white horse in 6.2 is being "deceptive". Once more, this is impossible unless you merely assume it to be true, as nothing in that text says or implies that any manner of deception is going on. Every occurrence of deception is openly depicted as such; John never sees something wicked, described with righteous-only terminology, and then leaves it up to his reader to simply guess if that object is actually wicked.

    4. The six seals of Revelation 6 and the prophecies in the Olivet Discourse do parallel, I agree, but they're not confined to the same order, nor is their content exactly the same. You have to prove, using the Revelation and the Discourse, that the order of subject matter must be the same between the two. More importantly, you have to interpret each set of subject matter within the context of its own authors writing style and mannerisms (i.e. interpret the six seals according to how John writes in the Revelation as a whole; interpret the Olivet Discourse according to how Jesus speaks throughout the gospels). This reaffirms points 1-3 above, not baseless assumption. Once the above three are established, then we can begin to cross reference with other Scripture. By that, we should see that the six seals and Olivet Discourse depict the same events, but not in the same order. For example, in the Olivet Discourse, Christ mentions "famine" only once, but in the six seals, "famine" is found in both the 3rd and 4th seals. In the Discourse, after the wars and the famines and the plagues and the martyrdoms and the destruction of Judea, then Christ describes vultures eating corpses, but in the six seals, the only mentioning of animals is found in the 4th seal, before the martyrdoms, and alongside the famines and plagues, and even then it's only "beasts of the earth", not vultures. In the Discourse, Christ places the earthquakes alongside the famines and plagues and before the martyrdoms and destruction of Judea and decreation language, but in the six seals, only a single earthquake is mentioned, and it is placed alongside the decreation language, and after the famines and plagues and martyrdoms. By this, it is proven that, if the six seals and Olivet Discourse are describing the same events, there is no reason to baselessly assume that they do so in the exact same order. Hence, there is real reason (other than mere assumption) that the 1st seal (the white horse) must be the same thing as the first sign Christ describes (false messiahs and false prophets).

    5. Even if the 1st seal is directly parallel to the first sign Christ described, it in no way affirms your belief in a singular "antichrist" who rules the whole world. Why? Because (a) being consistent with how John is writing (see points 1-3), the four horsemen are all personifications, not individual persons. So even if the 1st seal parallels the first sign Christ described, it would be personifying the many false messiahs and false prophets (i.e. "many antichrists"), not a specific individual. Christ never describes a singular antichrist figure in the Olivet Discourse, so your own requirement that the six seals and Discourse are directly parallel would mean that, in the least, the rider of the white horse is personifying "many antichrists", not a lone world-leading "antichrist".

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    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    1. Every single use of the color "white" Revelation is attached to an example of righteousness. If this is not true, then Revelation 6.2 is literally the only time the color is used out of consistency. You must prove from the text of Revelation 6.2 that John is using this color out of character. Your only way to do this is assert that the rider is wicked a priori, not from the text itself.

    2. Every single use of the stephanos crown in Revelation is attached to an example of holy victory. (The only exception to this is when the stephanos crown in a simile regarding something else's color.) Prove, using the text of Revelation, that the stephanos crown in 6.2 is being used out of consistency. Again, this is impossible to do unless it is assumed a priori, in which case it is not "proven".
    I too disagree that the first rider is connected with righteousness. I could just as easily portray 1) the color white and 2) crowns in Revelation to be symbolic of "overcoming" (which is what I think they symbolize) as you can of "righteousness", and thus could conclude just as easily as you (though I would conclude differently) that the first rider personifies (in the likeness of war, famine, and death) something un-righteous riding forth to victory (cf. 11:7; 13:7), such as dissension between Rome and the Jews. But this is just my opinion, and by no means will I die on this hill, or rub raw the bond of friendship over something that can so easily go both ways. Peace.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  9. #9

    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    1. Every single use of the color "white" Revelation is attached to an example of righteousness. If this is not true, then Revelation 6.2 is literally the only time the color is used out of consistency. You must prove from the text of Revelation 6.2 that John is using this color out of character. Your only way to do this is assert that the rider is wicked a priori, not from the text itself.
    Revelation 6:1,2 is the beginning of all the events that will take place. Revelation 19:11+ are the ending of all these events. Christ returns with all His Saints at the end of the events not at the beginning. He doesn't come on a white horse before and after all these events.... only after our Lord returns.

    Like I said. The AntiChrist will do the ultimate deception and set foot in the temple and claim be to God. The White Horse I believe is part of that deception. Being Christ himself will return on a White Horse in Revelation 19 here in Revelation 6 also the AntiChrist will deceive the world.

    Revelation 6 and Revelation 19 do not occur at the same time so I beleive it cannot be the same person.
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  10. #10

    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    I too disagree that the first rider is connected with righteousness. I could just as easily portray 1) the color white and 2) crowns in Revelation to be symbolic of "overcoming" (which is what I think they symbolize) as you can of "righteousness", and thus could conclude just as easily as you (though I would conclude differently) that the first rider personifies (in the likeness of war, famine, and death) something un-righteous riding forth to victory (cf. 11:7; 13:7), such as dissension between Rome and the Jews. But this is just my opinion, and by no means will I die on this hill, or rub raw the bond of friendship over something that can so easily go both ways. Peace.
    Yes... in Revelation 6 righteousness does not fit here.... deception fits here.
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes
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    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

  11. #11

    Re: The 4th horseman?

    To conquer means to get the victory. This rider is going forth conquering and to conquer, Who besides Christ could this be? It is Christ alone Who gets the victory! Christ came to subdue, undo, and defeat the works of the devil. This He did at the cross and resurrection, and is doing as the Eternal Kingdom is being built. When does the great deceiver, that old serpent, Satan ever conquer? NEVER! Not even in death does Satan conquer Christ and those coming into His kingdom. It is true that Satan tries, and he does transform himself into an angel of light, seeking to overcome Christ and His people. But Satan can never conquer or have the victory over Christ and His people. Even when he overcomes them and kills them, this is not conquering or having victory over them. It is simply removing them from this life and into the presence of Christ in heaven. The rider on the white horse is none other than Christ Jesus our Lord, going forth to conquer and conquering the works of the devil and destroying the kingdom of this world...To God be all glory, honor and power forever and ever...AMEN!

    Many Blessings,
    RW

  12. #12

    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    To conquer means to get the victory. This rider is going forth conquering and to conquer, Who besides Christ could this be? It is Christ alone Who gets the victory! Christ came to subdue, undo, and defeat the works of the devil. This He did at the cross and resurrection, and is doing as the Eternal Kingdom is being built. When does the great deceiver, that old serpent, Satan ever conquer? NEVER! Not even in death does Satan conquer Christ and those coming into His kingdom. It is true that Satan tries, and he does transform himself into an angel of light, seeking to overcome Christ and His people. But Satan can never conquer or have the victory over Christ and His people. Even when he overcomes them and kills them, this is not conquering or having victory over them. It is simply removing them from this life and into the presence of Christ in heaven. The rider on the white horse is none other than Christ Jesus our Lord, going forth to conquer and conquering the works of the devil and destroying the kingdom of this world...To God be all glory, honor and power forever and ever...AMEN!

    Many Blessings,
    RW
    Where in Revelation 6 does it say the white horsemen here has victory?
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  13. #13
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    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    To conquer means to get the victory. This rider is going forth conquering and to conquer, Who besides Christ could this be? It is Christ alone Who gets the victory! Christ came to subdue, undo, and defeat the works of the devil. This He did at the cross and resurrection, and is doing as the Eternal Kingdom is being built. When does the great deceiver, that old serpent, Satan ever conquer? NEVER! Not even in death does Satan conquer Christ and those coming into His kingdom. It is true that Satan tries, and he does transform himself into an angel of light, seeking to overcome Christ and His people. But Satan can never conquer or have the victory over Christ and His people. Even when he overcomes them and kills them, this is not conquering or having victory over them. It is simply removing them from this life and into the presence of Christ in heaven. The rider on the white horse is none other than Christ Jesus our Lord, going forth to conquer and conquering the works of the devil and destroying the kingdom of this world...To God be all glory, honor and power forever and ever...AMEN!

    Many Blessings,
    RW
    I appreciate what you're trying to say here, but what then do you make of Rev. 11:7 ("When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them."); 13:7 ("It was also given to [the beast] to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."); or Dan. 7:21, 25 ("I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them... He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.")?
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  14. #14

    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    I appreciate what you're trying to say here, but what then do you make of Rev. 11:7 ("When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them."); 13:7 ("It was also given to [the beast] to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."); or Dan. 7:21, 25 ("I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them... He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.")?
    Hi Astro,

    How is overcoming and killing the saints conquering them? Does not Christ tell us, "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"...in addition Christ says, "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die". Death does not give Satan victory, he is not conquering the saints when he overcomes and kills them. He is simply taking them from this current world, but they are not dead, they are in fact living and reigning with Christ in heaven. Death for the saints is VICTORY, not victory or conquering for Satan, but for them. Christ is the Victor...it is Christ Who rides the white horse going out to conquer and conquering!

    Many blessings,
    RW

  15. #15

    Re: The 4th horseman?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedee View Post
    Where in Revelation 6 does it say the white horsemen here has victory?
    Hi td,

    That is the definition for conquer.

    Conquer - 3528. nikao - to subdue (literally or figuratively):--conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

    But even in death, does Satan get victory? No! Christ alone gets the VICTORY, for death cannot separate us from Him.

    Many Blessings,
    RW

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