Jesus, God's plan "B" for the human race

[LookingUp]

Guys,

Why is it that infants and babies who die don't have to mature (i.e. conform to Christ) to be able to "get to heaven"?

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hi Mark

Jesus also said in John that the works of God were that we might believe on Him whom He sent. So belief is paramount. When we believe what Jesus says, and we get a revelation of what Jesus says, then grace comes to us! We then are made holy in that area like Peter said in the first verses I quoted. We are reminded in Ephesians that it is holy to love others. Yet, this scripture (above) in John was when Jesus met with a samaritan woman and the disciples were amazed! They were amazed he would do such a thing! In this area, they did not yet understand Jesus. IOW, he was eating a food they did not know. But the woman he touched, she knew. Jesus told them about the harvest. He did not tell the woman. She got it already. Look what she did after she was touched by the master.

"the works of God were that we might believe on Him whom He sent"

I fully agree. Naturally this leads to submission/obedience and the HS working through one to produce fruits. ( a thought about fruits: --- fruits are not for the consumption by the one bearing it, but for the hungry "passer by" - one bears fruit, produced by the HS for the consumption of the hungry )

"then grace comes to us"

Perhaps I have it wrong but, I do see that grace "comes to us" irrespective of the revelation. Grace was there before the world was formed. Grace is the absolute requirement prior to believing. But now I am splitting hairs, so yes, its all good.

"We then are made holy in that area"

Perhaps I am not understanding this the same way you are. I am of the conviction that holiness should be seen also from God's point of view. This being the case, there will not be a place for partial holiness. However, if man is observing another man, and does an assessment of this guy's level of holiness... it can be said that the observed one is holy in certain "areas" and not yet holy in others.

You supplied a very comprehensive post, thank for taking so much time on this. Your comments are valuable !

I hope you will also be able to address the other points. ( Characteristics of a child as it pertains to "becoming like little children" )

Love
Brits

[Eyelog]

Guys,

Why is it that infants and babies who die don't have to mature (i.e. conform to Christ) to be able to "get to heaven"?

Nor do the born again who are saved on their 'death bed.'

Hi, Lookingup. Long time no talk. Thought I'd take a stab at your statement/question.

To whom much has been given, much is required. But earning treasure in heaven has nothing to do directly with being saved by grace through faith and not by works, lest anyone should have cause to boast. Indeed, we are saved to do works He prepared in advance that we should walk in them. But those who choose not to walk in those good works of righteousness and choose not to embrace the maturation process have to ask themselves if they are really born again and have the Spirit, or are they backslidden. Assurance of salvation comes from obeying by faith and developing such a track record of doing. Maturation requires the doing as well. Take the doing and the obedience and the maturation out of it, and assurance weakens quickly.

Of course, I am not suggesting any doing that is not based on a renewal of the mind, a fixing of the mind, walking by faith or walking in the Spirit. Any works done without acknowledging God are not 'righteous' and not 'good' and do not result in treasure in heaven.

Ours is to be a continuous walk with God.

But maturing or being conformed to the image of Christ is not a direct prerequisite to being saved.

Perhaps I miss the point of your question.

[Brits Van Wyk]

Guys,

Why is it that infants and babies who die don't have to mature (i.e. conform to Christ) to be able to "get to heaven"?

Hi LookingUp

Good question. I am sure you will get some great insights on this from other participants..

I was not really leading up to this question with the post ( # 11 ) but, it could well form part of the "becoming like little children" process that I am keen to explore.

The OP has been addressed in some detail and I think there may be some new stuff on this coming as well.

I am holding thumbs for lots of meaningful contributions.

Love
Brits

[Brits Van Wyk]

Okay. We don't get saved by human works. After that, God's plan is for us to earn treasure in heaven by our works. So, all this no effort business is unBiblical. So is seeing the Fall as a mistake. God orchestrated the Fall of mankind, let alone allowed it and foresaw it. As some have said in this thread, God was trying to create something greater than an Adam. He was trying to create those who would become like the 2nd Adam through seeking and finding, sowing and reaping, loving and doing.

All this God does it all for us after we are saved stuff denies the point of why He saved us - to create a people zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:14.

You want to know God's purpose? Look at who He honors and rewards the most: Those who are the most like Christ in their faithful obedience. But Christ did not obey simply by letting God do it all. He learned obedience by what He suffered. Hebrews 5:8.

Best of blessing to you.

Hi Eyelog

Thanks for joining the tread.Good to hear from you.

The tread has two main topics (so far)

OP: Plan"A" and plan "B"
and
Becoming like little children.

you conclude with the following:
"You want to know God's purpose? Look at who He honors and rewards the most: Those who are the most like Christ in their faithful obedience. But Christ did not obey simply by letting God do it all. He learned obedience by what He suffered. Hebrews 5:8." -

Seems like this topic is not related ? - Your point of view is however respected.

I am really looking forward to your contribution on the main two points. As I said before, your opinions are always valued.

Love ya
Brits

[Brits Van Wyk]

God knew Adam would fall, yet He gave Adam the freedom to choose between self-independence from God and self-dependence...which is actually a choice based on love. Free will requires a choice, so God devised the plan wherein man could choose, then choose again, whom he would love. We were created to love Abba and to be loved by Him.

blessings,

Watchman

Hi Watchman

I have been following some of your posts and replies...impressive!

Will you forgive me for asking a silly/naughty question :

So, if God knew Adam would fail, why create him? Shame, the poor guy (and Eve) were destined for a crappy life. I am sure they (nor Abba) enjoyed the guilt and other consequences brought along by the fall.
I am NOT suggesting that the fall was God's fault, just that He could have avoided it.
Most people won't start a project if they know it will fail. They would rather skip the plan doomed for failure and get on with a plan that is likely to succeed.


Love to hear from you.

Love
Brits

[Eyelog]

Hi Eyelog

Thanks for joining the tread.Good to hear from you.

The tread has two main topics (so far)

OP: Plan"A" and plan "B"
and
Becoming like little children.

you conclude with the following:
"You want to know God's purpose? Look at who He honors and rewards the most: Those who are the most like Christ in their faithful obedience. But Christ did not obey simply by letting God do it all. He learned obedience by what He suffered. Hebrews 5:8." -

Seems like this topic is not related ? - Your point of view is however respected.

I am really looking forward to your contribution on the main two points. As I said before, your opinions are always valued.

Love ya
Brits

Not sure how your question about God knowing Adam would fail (#21) is not related to my point about God's ultimate purpose in creating Adam and mankind in general. God knew He'd fail and created for the purpose that He would fail, so He could develop into a unique and difficult thing to create: A free agent zealous to do Good. Titus 2:14.

But since you are acting as the thread police (), I will try to speak only of God's purpose as a plan. Obviously, He had both plans A and B. In fact, He began with plan A, switched to plan B, repeated B, and then switched back to plan A. -- At least that is what I take from His NT appellation, ABBA. Clearly it is an acronym or acrostic referencing your theory. Yes?

Good to hear from you too, Brit.

[Brits Van Wyk]

Not sure how your question about God knowing Adam would fail (#21) is not related to my point about God's ultimate purpose in creating Adam and mankind in general. God knew He'd fail and created for the purpose that He would fail, so He could develop into a unique and difficult thing to create: A free agent zealous to do Good. Titus 2:14.

But since you are acting as the thread police (), I will try to speak only of God's purpose as a plan. Obviously, He had both plans A and B. In fact, He began with plan A, switched to plan B, repeated B, and then switched back to plan A. -- At least that is what I take from His NT appellation, ABBA. Clearly it is an acronym or acrostic referencing your theory. Yes?

Good to hear from you too, Brit.

Eyelog

Was not talking down on you at all. If you see it that way, pls accept my sincere apology.
As far as being the tread police - not so much, just super keen to discuss main topics really. We had long discussions in another post and as far as i could gather, we agree on the fruit as evidence. We may not see eye to eye on the effort thing - be it as it may, I would appreciate it if we do not get into a discussion of this point here. However, if you feel that it is required to address the two pints, I have no further objection.

ABBA --- no really, I never even thought about it being an acrostic ! (He began with plan A, switched to plan B, repeated B, and then switched back to plan A ) - you are sooo sharp

If I may, it is a very difficult concept for me to think of God in a way that suggests that He could fail at anything. (God knew He'd fail) Perhaps you can help me with this? I can't seem to wrap my mind around this.

"A free agent zealous to do Good. Titus 2:14" - I like this. I recently posted a looong extract called "Romance" on the blog side and in it, there are some other thoughts about God's reason for creating man. It is a long read and some of the stuff may rub you up the wrong way but, if you have some spare time, you may want to read it and see if you have some of your own "revelation" on such reasons. It is, at the very least, very interesting.
see: http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/310...h-Perspectives


Love
Brits

[Eyelog]

If I may, it is a very difficult concept for me to think of God in a way that suggests that He could fail at anything. (God knew He'd fail) Perhaps you can help me with this? I can't seem to wrap my mind around this.

Brits, I was saying God created Adam, knowing that Adam would fail to obey the command.

But, your whole plan B analysis seems to imply God failed and had to add the Jesus solution? It seems that way to me, as i read you.

Regards,

p.s., by the way, the ABBA point was a jest. In fact, I agree there is only a single plan, not God having to adjust. Even the decision to flood the earth was foreseen, and prepared for, by creating the waters within the earth to flood it, etc.

[LookingUp]

Nor do the born again who are saved on their 'death bed.'

Hi, Lookingup. Long time no talk. Thought I'd take a stab at your statement/question.

To whom much has been given, much is required. But earning treasure in heaven has nothing to do directly with being saved by grace through faith and not by works, lest anyone should have cause to boast. Indeed, we are saved to do works He prepared in advance that we should walk in them. But those who choose not to walk in those good works of righteousness and choose not to embrace the maturation process have to ask themselves if they are really born again and have the Spirit, or are they backslidden. Assurance of salvation comes from obeying by faith and developing such a track record of doing. Maturation requires the doing as well. Take the doing and the obedience and the maturation out of it, and assurance weakens quickly.

Of course, I am not suggesting any doing that is not based on a renewal of the mind, a fixing of the mind, walking by faith or walking in the Spirit. Any works done without acknowledging God are not 'righteous' and not 'good' and do not result in treasure in heaven.

Ours is to be a continuous walk with God.

But maturing or being conformed to the image of Christ is not a direct prerequisite to being saved.

Perhaps I miss the point of your question.

The babies we abort or the children we have murdered don't get treasure in heaven (or as many) because we cut their lives short?

[LookingUp]

Hi Watchman

I have been following some of your posts and replies...impressive!

Will you forgive me for asking a silly/naughty question :

So, if God knew Adam would fail, why create him? Shame, the poor guy (and Eve) were destined for a crappy life. I am sure they (nor Abba) enjoyed the guilt and other consequences brought along by the fall.
I am NOT suggesting that the fall was God's fault, just that He could have avoided it.
Most people won't start a project if they know it will fail. They would rather skip the plan doomed for failure and get on with a plan that is likely to succeed.


Love to hear from you.

Love
Brits

I think God knew they'd fail and knew how far we (mankind) could possibly fall, but that the purpose of creation was to tell a story of God's redeeming love, so it was part of the plan before He began creating.

[Eyelog]

The babies we abort or the children we have murdered don't get treasure in heaven (or as many) because we cut their lives short?

All we know is that God is just. On the one hand, all get the Denarius, and inherit the kingdom, which oughta be enough! But those who have the gift of a talent or mina surely get rewards if they put them to use for His kingdom.

God knows the number of our days. What can man do to us? Fear the one who can put you body and soul into heaven, says Jesus.

He has that part worked out, but I am unaware of the Scripture which says how the unborn are rewarded or not, though I believe God deals with them justly.

The death bed guy, on the other hand, has wasted his life, and I would gather his rewards in heaven are few, though he will receive the inheritance, and I am sure he is greatful beyond measure for that.

[Eyelog]

God knew Adam would fall, yet He gave Adam the freedom to choose between self-independence from God and self-dependence...which is actually a choice based on love. Free will requires a choice, so God devised the plan wherein man could choose, then choose again, whom he would love. We were created to love Abba and to be loved by Him.

blessings,

Watchman

This is well said, especially since you keep the changing of the plan in the hands of the created, rather than the creator.

[Eyelog]

Amen, Jesus is far from plan B. This was the plan all along. Consider our present state just a seed for the future state of man, who in the final and complete stage will finally be made into the image of God.

I think these things be true, my friend. Of course, it is more difficult to multiply our talents if we are immature in christ, so working hard on seeking Him in our maturation is essential to pleasing Him, as per the parable of the Talents. Of course, this is His ultimate plan, to create a people eager to do those good deeds, and actually able to carry them out (in Him, as we say). Agreed?

[LookingUp]

All we know is that God is just. On the one hand, all get the Denarius, and inherit the kingdom, which oughta be enough! But those who have the gift of a talent or mina surely get rewards if they put them to use for His kingdom.

God knows the number of our days. What can man do to us? Fear the one who can put you body and soul into heaven, says Jesus.

He has that part worked out, but I am unaware of the Scripture which says how the unborn are rewarded or not, though I believe God deals with them justly.

The death bed guy, on the other hand, has wasted his life, and I would gather his rewards in heaven are few, though he will receive the inheritance, and I am sure he is greatful beyond measure for that.

I agree with your point. I don't think Scripture tells us what happens to the baby, but I do wonder.