Jesus, God's plan "B" for the human race

[Saved7]

I think these things be true, my friend. Of course, it is more difficult to multiply our talents if we are immature in christ, so working hard on seeking Him in our maturation is essential to pleasing Him, as per the parable of the Talents. Of course, this is His ultimate plan, to create a people eager to do those good deeds, and actually able to carry them out (in Him, as we say). Agreed?

Agreed. Certainly seeking to mature, pleases God, because when we are doing this, we are seeking HIS glory, and not our own. It is so that God may be all in all. We seek to grow more and more into the image of Christ who is the express image of God. And if we are doing these things, then our hearts are purely set on Him and that is loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and this is what pleases God. The greatest commandment.
One of these days, I hope to finally put together my understanding on this subject and present it to the entire body of Christ, that they may rejoice and be strengthened by knowing just what God has done.

[Watchman]

Hi Watchman
I have been following some of your posts and replies...impressive!
Will you forgive me for asking a silly/naughty question :
So, if God knew Adam would fail, why create him? Shame, the poor guy (and Eve) were destined for a crappy life. I am sure they (nor Abba) enjoyed the guilt and other consequences brought along by the fall.
I am NOT suggesting that the fall was God's fault, just that He could have avoided it.
Most people won't start a project if they know it will fail. They would rather skip the plan doomed for failure and get on with a plan that is likely to succeed.
Love to hear from you.
Love
Brits

Hi Brits,
Thanks for the kind words. I believe the answer to your question has to do with God’s sovereignty, His love, and His wisdom. His plan was about more than just Adam. He didn’t create Adam to have a crappy life—Adam chose his path albeit unwittingly. However, consider that Adam’s life wasn’t all that bad. After all, for a time, he walked and talked with God. After the fall, he was able to pass on the wisdom and knowledge he gained from his early relationship with Him. Can you imagine the tales the patriarch told his offspring, and their offspring, for ~900 years? Adam was a type of Christ, but failed…but he did serve as head of the human race. He was the first of many patriarchs who were the shadows of today’s pastors (shepherds) and spiritual fathers. While I’m sure he didn’t enjoy the guilt and consequences of his actions, he serves still as an example of what happens when people choose independence from God. God uses Adam’s mistake for good-- to teach countless others.

It was very important for God NOT to skip the bit of his plan he knew would fail due to human frailty and weakness, because those are the very things about the flesh God wanted to teach mankind. His plan flushed the enemy out of hiding (from man) and showed man what a wretch he is apart from God. His plan graciously and mercifully allowed mankind the ability to choose, and choose again, whom he would love. As I said before, love always requires a choice. God loved mankind enough to suffer his rejection and the pain of temporary separation in order to achieve a far more glorious goal: a family of children who love Him unconditionally, faithfully, and by choice. He could have created that initially, but it wouldn’t be called love…mankind would be a race of automatons.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: that wasn't a naughty question at all...it was an excellent question!

[Watchman]

Guys,

Why is it that infants and babies who die don't have to mature (i.e. conform to Christ) to be able to "get to heaven"?

God's got the kiddos! It is sin that separates us from Him, and those who aren't old enough to know right and wrong, or old enough to choose, or reject, Him have no sin. Yes, they are born as fleshly creatures and will eventually sin if they live long enough; but they are also born innocent of transgression. Consequently, they are safe in His hands.

blessings,

Watchman

[Watchman]

If I may, it is a very difficult concept for me to think of God in a way that suggests that He could fail at anything. (God knew He'd fail) Perhaps you can help me with this? I can't seem to wrap my mind around this.

The thing is, Papa didn't fail! He created a creature and gave him the power of choice, thereby making Himself vulnerable. Adam failed to make the correct choice!

[LookingUp]

God's got the kiddos! It is sin that separates us from Him, and those who aren't old enough to know right and wrong, or old enough to choose, or reject, Him have no sin. Yes, they are born as fleshly creatures and will eventually sin if they live long enough; but they are also born innocent of transgression. Consequently, they are safe in His hands.

blessings,

Watchman

What about the treasure we gain by living out this life in a pleasing way (i.e. conform to the image of Christ)? Babies who die don't get that option.

[Watchman]

What about the treasure we gain by living out this life in a pleasing way (i.e. conform to the image of Christ)? Babies who die don't get that option.

Nor do folks who die as spiritual babes. There are many, many folks who have been saved for decades who are still babies in Christ. While sad, this is true, nonetheless. They, too, miss out on the beauty, intimacy, and adventure of having Christ formed in them.

[ewq1938]

Something went terribly wrong with God's plan "A" in Adam. Then He had to make a new plan... Plan "B".

2 Tim 1: 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,


So, what was the idea with Adam then ?

I have no issue with this concept. We now have a plan B second covenant because the first didn't work out so well.

[ewq1938]

Since God,in his foreknowledge,knew Adam would fall we see that Yeshua is the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world"

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Yeshua is not plan B.

So Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world or is that related to the book of life?

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life (of the Lamb slain) from the foundation of the world.

The book of life came to be at the beginning of the world but Jesus wasn't slain back then. He was slain some 2k years ago.

[LookingUp]

Nor do folks who die as spiritual babes. There are many, many folks who have been saved for decades who are still babies in Christ. While sad, this is true, nonetheless. They, too, miss out on the beauty, intimacy, and adventure of having Christ formed in them.

Huh? We (the human race) have been aborting and killing babies since creation and they miss out on the beauty, intimacy, and adventure of having Christ formed in them? If they are "still babies in Christ" what happens to them?

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hi Brits,
It was very important for God NOT to skip the bit of his plan he knew would fail due to human frailty and weakness, because those are the very things about the flesh God wanted to teach mankind. His plan flushed the enemy out of hiding (from man) and showed man what a wretch he is apart from God. His plan graciously and mercifully allowed mankind the ability to choose, and choose again, whom he would love. As I said before, love always requires a choice. God loved mankind enough to suffer his rejection and the pain of temporary separation in order to achieve a far more glorious goal: a family of children who love Him unconditionally, faithfully, and by choice. He could have created that initially, but it wouldn’t be called love…mankind would be a race of automatons.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: that wasn't a naughty question at all...it was an excellent question!

Hi Watchman (within the topic of Adam being Plan "A")

An intelligent answer indeed. Thank you !

However, it still leaves the question: If God knows that a certain one is going to fail no matter what love is presented to him, no matter how patient God is, no matter how many chances he is given .... it should be clear that this one individual is a lost case or "doomed to failure".

I think most of us are in agreement that God knows the beginning from the end. (some propose that God knows only that which is knowable... I am not at ease with this point of view but without a better perspective, I don't discard this possibility entirely)

In the light of the above:

it is certainly possible that there cannot be ONLY successful models as there will be nothing to measure the success by.

But... on the other hand, (from a human perspective), the question could be asked as to why create a model/man if you know that it is going to fail even if you give it the full potential to succeed?

Also, if the models destined to fail is around for the purpose of exposing the negative ( success vs failure ), then it does seem a bit cruel to create them.

On the other hand, if they (those whom are known by God to be "doomed to failure") exist to bring honor and glory to God who is just, it could be reasoned that hey are created with express purpose to fail and thus act as the "negative" to show up the "positive".
(I am not at all disputing that God is just. I am just saying that a human perspective could view this as cruel towards those 'doomed to fail")

In the same way that some support euthanasia, it could be reasoned that death/non-existence ( God should perhaps not have created those he knew, will fail) is better than allowing a life of suffering that will inevitably culminate in something horrible. i.e. A baby that is known to have severe conditions that will result in a life of unimaginable pain etc... could result in a act of love by euthanasia before it is born. {not giving this example as a personal point of view, but rather as a typical scenario one may be confronted with.})

So, it is my understanding that there was no plan "B" in the form of Jesus.
I also trust that the post will help others to realize that we were in God's thoughts before creation. (we did not "just happen") and that His thoughts about us were pleasing to Himself and full of love and kindness towards us. We are, (and should recognized ) however, firstly created for His pleasure.

I have no answer for this and it is not really an issue I struggle with...it is however a question I was asked before (by an unbeliever) and I could not give a sensible answer.

Help, if you have some ammo for me with this please.

[Brits Van Wyk]

Hi Brits,
Thanks for the kind words. I believe the answer to your question has to do with God’s sovereignty, His love, and His wisdom. His plan was about more than just Adam. He didn’t create Adam to have a crappy life—Adam chose his path albeit unwittingly. However, consider that Adam’s life wasn’t all that bad. After all, for a time, he walked and talked with God. After the fall, he was able to pass on the wisdom and knowledge he gained from his early relationship with Him. Can you imagine the tales the patriarch told his offspring, and their offspring, for ~900 years? Adam was a type of Christ, but failed…but he did serve as head of the human race. He was the first of many patriarchs who were the shadows of today’s pastors (shepherds) and spiritual fathers. While I’m sure he didn’t enjoy the guilt and consequences of his actions, he serves still as an example of what happens when people choose independence from God. God uses Adam’s mistake for good-- to teach countless others.

It was very important for God NOT to skip the bit of his plan he knew would fail due to human frailty and weakness, because those are the very things about the flesh God wanted to teach mankind. His plan flushed the enemy out of hiding (from man) and showed man what a wretch he is apart from God. His plan graciously and mercifully allowed mankind the ability to choose, and choose again, whom he would love. As I said before, love always requires a choice. God loved mankind enough to suffer his rejection and the pain of temporary separation in order to achieve a far more glorious goal: a family of children who love Him unconditionally, faithfully, and by choice. He could have created that initially, but it wouldn’t be called love…mankind would be a race of automatons.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: that wasn't a naughty question at all...it was an excellent question!

Reply number 2

Hi again Watchman (still with Plan "A" and plan "B")

There is so much of the character of our Creator to learn. And it is all awesome...

I continue reading your reply above and will most likely do so a good few more times.

A thought came to mind....

When Adam and Eve were created , they had no concept of a life without the privilege to fellowship with Abba. At this stage the were a little bit like the automaons you described. They have not yet been exposed to a situation where they could make a decision "against" God. If they were, I would like to think that they were "naturally" inclined to go with decisions in line with Abba. It appears then that a third party was required to motivate the rebellion! This had to have God's approval just as in the case of satan being granted access to Job? - I imagine that the outcome of the temptation was a win win for God... Adam and Eve refuse the devil and God wins and.. Adam and Eve rebels and God wins anyhow ( actually.. He has a perfect plan for this scenario and ... Adam and Eve (and all mankind) wins as well. Why? because they get to know how terrible it is without intimacy (they never knew this before) with their Daddy, they get to know that they have a will of their own, they get to know just how much God loves them as he has a plan in place even if they fail and He is so gracious that He gives them a free will option to either continue without Him or to get restored. Hmmmm don't know if this is scriptural but it kind of feels right and goood.

Love
Brits

[Watchman]

I have no issue with this concept. We now have a plan B second covenant because the first didn't work out so well.

If this is true, then God actually failed. However, if the times before Christ were lovingly designed to show mankind his wretchedness and the futility of a life apart from God (as the first phase of His plan), and then show mankind via Christ the magnificence, hope, intimacy, adventure, and beauty of being one spirit with God---then the first phase worked exactly as planned.

blessings,

W

[Watchman]

Huh? We (the human race) have been aborting and killing babies since creation and they miss out on the beauty, intimacy, and adventure of having Christ formed in them? If they are "still babies in Christ" what happens to them?

Yes, the aborted babies miss this in this life. However, since the increase of His government shall never end, I am confident He has this in store for them in eternity.

[Watchman]

When Adam and Eve were created , they had no concept of a life without the privilege to fellowship with Abba. At this stage the were a little bit like the automaons you described. They have not yet been exposed to a situation where they could make a decision "against" God. If they were, I would like to think that they were "naturally" inclined to go with decisions in line with Abba. It appears then that a third party was required to motivate the rebellion! This had to have God's approval just as in the case of satan being granted access to Job? - I imagine that the outcome of the temptation was a win win for God... Adam and Eve refuse the devil and God wins and.. Adam and Eve rebels and God wins anyhow ( actually.. He has a perfect plan for this scenario and ... Adam and Eve (and all mankind) wins as well. Why? because they get to know how terrible it is without intimacy (they never knew this before) with their Daddy, they get to know that they have a will of their own, they get to know just how much God loves them as he has a plan in place even if they fail and He is so gracious that He gives them a free will option to either continue without Him or to get restored. Hmmmm don't know if this is scriptural but it kind of feels right and goood.

The bolded part above is exactly how God planned it. He tells the end from the beginning. The Lamb was slain before the world was created, so His plan was in place in advance.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Revelation 13:8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made—the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.


Both phases of His plan were laid out so mankind could grasp the enormity of his choice. Better choices are made with more complete information. The creation account even tells the end from the beginning. Look at it: God created man, took his bride out of him, the enemy tripped them, God pronounced judgement, man became separated from God and died in spirit. In reverse (ie telling the end from the beginning): Mankind was dead, God pronounced judgement (via Christ), the enemy was tripped up, the Bride was placed into the Man, Christ, and we will go back to our Creator.

blessings,

W

[LookingUp]

Yes, the aborted babies miss this in this life. However, since the increase of His government shall never end, I am confident He has this in store for them in eternity.

Thanks. I tend to think that same thing.