Do you believe the judgments of Revelation to be chronological?

[Raybob]

But one of my points was that a futurist who sees all seven seal judgments occurring, followed by all seven trumpets, then all seven bowls, could argue against your position on ch. 6-16 by using the same argument you make against the preterists' view of ch. 19-21. ..

I'm real curious why you would call seals or trumpets, judgments. Revelation doesn't mention anything about any judgment from God until after the seventh seal and all through the vials of wrath. Everything mentioned prior is called Satan's wrath.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(Rev 12:12)

[markedward]

I'm real curious why you would call seals or trumpets, judgments. Revelation doesn't mention anything about any judgment from God until after the seventh seal and all through the vials of wrath.

While it doesn't say 'these are judgments', that does not mean they aren't... so this really isn't much of an objection, right?

I would call the seals and trumpets 'judgments' because of why they happen.

(1) Together, the seals and trumpets have significant parallels to the 'curses' of the Covenant in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, which God promised as judgment against Israel should the nation as a whole turn away from him. (Coincidentally, although the 'curses' of those chapters are God's active punishment (and not his passive 'allowing' of bad things) upon Israel, they aren't called 'judgments' either.)

(2) They are the preview (the seals) and the content (the trumpets) of the scroll that Jesus is opening. A scroll that comes from the hand of God, seated upon his throne (as in a courtroom), written upon front and back. The scene is parallel to Ezekiel 1-3, in which God, seated upon his throne (as in a courtroom), appears before Ezekiel while holding a scroll that is written on front and back. That scroll contains 'lamentation and mourning and woe', which is elaborated as consisting of God's active punishment against Israel for its rebellion against him. The punishment that Ezekiel proclaims is identical to that of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. The 'scroll' of both Ezekiel and Revelation contains the the judgment of the Covenant Law. (That's not all each of them contains... but it shows that, yes, the seals and trumpets are 'judgments'.)

[DurbanDude]

But one of my points was that a futurist who sees all seven seal judgments occurring, followed by all seven trumpets, then all seven bowls, could argue against your position on ch. 6-16 by using the same argument you make against the preterists' view of ch. 19-21. They'd argue against you, saying that's "it's clear that the seven trumpets are not sounded until the seventh seal is broken, and it's just as clear that the seven bowls of wrath, 'which are last' (15:1), are not poured out until after the seventh trumpet is sounded, and so therefore (though I see where you're coming from) I find the consecutive view far more simpler and more obvious." Clearly this made-up person has a strong point against you,

I wasn't clear enough in my previous post about your question here. Its all about context, if these other futurists can't see the second coming in the ending of the seven seals and the seven trumpets, well it is a matter of interpretation and the bible is subjective. But I just think that its more obvious that many of the visions of Revelation end in the Second Coming. But this does not mean all of them end in the second coming. Each chapter has to be looked at on its own merits to see where it fits in without assuming everything is consecutive or everything points to the second coming. BOTH assumptions are incorrect in my view, context is what counts.

[seeker_truth]

While it doesn't say 'these are judgments', that does not mean they aren't... so this really isn't much of an objection, right?

I would call the seals and trumpets 'judgments' because of why they happen.

(1) Together, the seals and trumpets have significant parallels to the 'curses' of the Covenant in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, which God promised as judgment against Israel should the nation as a whole turn away from him. (Coincidentally, although the 'curses' of those chapters are God's active punishment (and not his passive 'allowing' of bad things) upon Israel, they aren't called 'judgments' either.)

(2) They are the preview (the seals) and the content (the trumpets) of the scroll that Jesus is opening. A scroll that comes from the hand of God, seated upon his throne (as in a courtroom), written upon front and back. The scene is parallel to Ezekiel 1-3, in which God, seated upon his throne (as in a courtroom), appears before Ezekiel while holding a scroll that is written on front and back. That scroll contains 'lamentation and mourning and woe', which is elaborated as consisting of God's active punishment against Israel for its rebellion against him. The punishment that Ezekiel proclaims is identical to that of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. The 'scroll' of both Ezekiel and Revelation contains the the judgment of the Covenant Law. (That's not all each of them contains... but it shows that, yes, the seals and trumpets are 'judgments'.)

Do you still view most of the judgments within the scroll as fulfilled, 1st century AD?

[markedward]

Yes.

The seven seals are not linear in order, but thematic. They speak of the events of the time between Jesus' accession as King (30 AD), and the judgment upon the nation of Judea (70 AD). Jesus' breaking the seals is anticipatory of the judgments within the scroll (or, as Ezekiel put it, 'words of lamentation and mourning and woe'), which include: the spread of the gospel of the kingdom (begun by the Apostles), the Covenant 'curses' (war, famine, plague, wild beasts, death), martyrdom of the saints (beginning with Stephen and culminating in the persecution under Nero), and the fall of apostate Israel (the war with Rome, resulting in the collapse of the nation of Judea).

The seven trumpets announce the actual judgments as Jesus' opens the scroll and reads it, focusing primarily on the fall of Israel via the fall of Jerusalem.

[seeker_truth]

Yes.

The seven seals are not linear in order, but thematic. They speak of the events of the time between Jesus' accession as King (30 AD), and the judgment upon the nation of Judea (70 AD). Jesus' breaking the seals is anticipatory of the judgments within the scroll (or, as Ezekiel put it, 'words of lamentation and mourning and woe'), which include: the spread of the gospel of the kingdom (begun by the Apostles), the Covenant 'curses' (war, famine, plague, wild beasts, death), martyrdom of the saints (beginning with Stephen and culminating in the persecution under Nero), and the fall of apostate Israel (the war with Rome, resulting in the collapse of the nation of Judea).

The seven trumpets announce the actual judgments as Jesus' opens the scroll and reads it, focusing primarily on the fall of Israel via the fall of Jerusalem.

Can you give a very short explanation of each trumpet, as to how they were fulfilled? And, how do you view the fulfillment of the vials?

[markedward]

The first five trumpets have loose parallels to the ten plagues of Egypt. (Thus falling under the Covenant 'curses', as God told Israel he would bring the plagues of Egypt against them if they were to turn away from him: Deuteronomy 28.27,60.)

The trumpets also come with a theme of 'thirds' or 'threes'.

Trumpet 1: Hail. A metaphor for the beginning of Israel's judgment, as found in God sending punishment against the nation of Judea and the city of Jerusalem.

Trumpet 2: Water to blood. The 'burning mountain' image and the 'mountain thrown into the sea' image both come from Jeremiah 51, as metaphors for the fall of Babylon, serving here as metaphors for the collapse of the nation of Judea in 70 AD.

Trumpet 3: Bitterness. (With vague parallels to 'water to blood'.) 'Wormwood' is used in the Old Testament occasionally, as a metaphor for false teaching and apostasy, and God's accompanying judgment for it.

Trumpet 4: Darkness. Several of the Prophets (and Jesus among them) use the 'decreation' metaphor when speaking about the fall of a nation. Isaiah does it for Edom in chapter 34. John does in the sixth seal. He is speaking about the collapse of Judea as a national power.

Trumpet 5: Locusts. The majority of the imagery here comes from Joel 1-2 (the locusts, the lion's teeth, the sound of chariots). Joel was speaking in metaphor about the armies of Babylon coming against Judah, under God's direction. John borrows that language to describe a new army, the Romans, coming against Judea. This language is found, minimally, in Jeremiah 51 for Babylon's own fall.

Trumpet 6: An expansion of trumpet 5. The armies of Roman (numbering 'double myriads of myriads', an idiom essentially meaning in context, 'a terrifyingly huge number') come against Judea, heading for Jerusalem.

Trumpet 7: After the fall of Jerusalem, a shout of victory goes out. The kingdom is God's, and his Christ and his people have been vindicated.

[seeker_truth]

The first five trumpets have loose parallels to the ten plagues of Egypt. (Thus falling under the Covenant 'curses', as God told Israel he would bring the plagues of Egypt against them if they were to turn away from him: Deuteronomy 28.27,60.)

The trumpets also come with a theme of 'thirds' or 'threes'.

Trumpet 1: Hail. A metaphor for the beginning of Israel's judgment, as found in God sending punishment against the nation of Judea and the city of Jerusalem.

Trumpet 2: Water to blood. The 'burning mountain' image and the 'mountain thrown into the sea' image both come from Jeremiah 51, as metaphors for the fall of Babylon, serving here as metaphors for the collapse of the nation of Judea in 70 AD.

Trumpet 3: Bitterness. (With vague parallels to 'water to blood'.) 'Wormwood' is used in the Old Testament occasionally, as a metaphor for false teaching and apostasy, and God's accompanying judgment for it.

Trumpet 4: Darkness. Several of the Prophets (and Jesus among them) use the 'decreation' metaphor when speaking about the fall of a nation. Isaiah does it for Edom in chapter 34. John does in the sixth seal. He is speaking about the collapse of Judea as a national power.

Trumpet 5: Locusts. The majority of the imagery here comes from Joel 1-2 (the locusts, the lion's teeth, the sound of chariots). Joel was speaking in metaphor about the armies of Babylon coming against Judah, under God's direction. John borrows that language to describe a new army, the Romans, coming against Judea. This language is found, minimally, in Jeremiah 51 for Babylon's own fall.

Trumpet 6: An expansion of trumpet 5. The armies of Roman (numbering 'double myriads of myriads', an idiom essentially meaning in context, 'a terrifyingly huge number') come against Judea, heading for Jerusalem.

Trumpet 7: After the fall of Jerusalem, a shout of victory goes out. The kingdom is God's, and his Christ and his people have been vindicated.

What does the phrase a third refer to, and for what purpose?

[seeker_truth]

The first five trumpets have loose parallels to the ten plagues of Egypt. (Thus falling under the Covenant 'curses', as God told Israel he would bring the plagues of Egypt against them if they were to turn away from him: Deuteronomy 28.27,60.)

Trumpet 6: An expansion of trumpet 5. The armies of Roman (numbering 'double myriads of myriads', an idiom essentially meaning in context, 'a terrifyingly huge number') come against Judea, heading for Jerusalem.

What huge number of Roman troops were stationed at the Euphrates River, between 66 & 73 AD?

[markedward]

What does the phrase a third refer to, and for what purpose?

The seals come in a theme of 'fourths' and 'fours' (four horsemen; the third horseman hits for four 'measures' total; the fourth horseman hits for one-fourth of the earth; etc.).

The trumpets come in a theme of 'thirds' and 'threes' (most of them are quite obvious).

The vials come in full.

My belief is that it is a depiction of John's vision escalating in intensity, rising up from one-fourth (the seals), to one-third (the trumpets), on to overflowing (the vials).

[seeker_truth]

The seals come in a theme of 'fourths' and 'fours' (four horsemen; the third horseman hits for four 'measures' total; the fourth horseman hits for one-fourth of the earth; etc.).

The trumpets come in a theme of 'thirds' and 'threes' (most of them are quite obvious).

The vials come in full.

My belief is that it is a depiction of John's vision escalating in intensity, rising up from one-fourth (the seals), to one-third (the trumpets), on to overflowing (the vials).

How do you interpret the phrase, one-fourth of the earth?

[markedward]

What huge number of Roman troops were stationed at the Euphrates River, between 66 & 73 AD?

The Euphrates was commonly seen as an ancient border between the kingdom of Israel and its enemies. Hence, the enemies of Israel typically came from the land of the Euphrates or beyond. John's use of the Euphrates is more for its symbolic meaning than a literal one. Even still, if we're pushing for the Revelation's reference to armies coming from the Euphrates as being absolutely literal (which I don't believe it is meant to be read that way), armies under Titus' command came from the Euphrates to Judea, joining in the assault on the country. (They even gathered near the city of Caesarea... where the Valley of Megiddo is.)

[markedward]

How do you interpret the phrase, one-fourth of the earth?

Symbolically. As I said, I believe the fourths (of the seals), then the thirds (of the trumpets), then the wholes (of the vials) are strictly a part of John's visionary experiences, and not literal increments.

[markedward]

And, how do you view the fulfillment of the vials?

Sorry, I missed responding to this part.

The seals of the scroll, in part, anticipate God's judgment upon the nation of Judea in 70 AD. The trumpets announce the reading of the scroll. The vials are the judgments of the scroll being poured out.

Essentially, I see John's vision as looping back on itself several times. (Some of) the seals correspond to the trumpets, which in turn correspond to the vials.

[seeker_truth]

The Euphrates was commonly seen as an ancient border between the kingdom of Israel and its enemies. Hence, the enemies of Israel typically came from the land of the Euphrates or beyond. John's use of the Euphrates is more for its symbolic meaning than a literal one. Even still, if we're pushing for the Revelation's reference to armies coming from the Euphrates as being absolutely literal (which I don't believe it is meant to be read that way), armies under Titus' command came from the Euphrates to Judea, joining in the assault on the country. (They even gathered near the city of Caesarea... where the Valley of Megiddo is.)

If I had to explain the fulfillment of the 6th trumpet in the 1st century, I might have said the same thing. Yet, I view the army of the horsemen as literal, and the number of horsemen, which was spoken by a voice (Christ) from the golden altar in heaven, to be the actual number of troops gathered at the Euphrates River.

How do you explain the death of men by the fire, smoke, and brimstone that issues out of the mouth of horses? Your answers are appreciated.. I've heard your view before, but never explained in any detail.