Do you believe the judgments of Revelation to be chronological?

[markedward]

We read something like Isaiah 29 but don't interpret it as literally saying that God would unload thunder and earthquakes and tornadoes against Jerusalem just because an enemy nations has come against it (perhaps referring to Sennacherib's attack on the city). We come to Zechariah 4, but we don't conclude that a lampstand with 'Zerubbabel' engraved on it would come alive and build Jerusalem with its seven-tiered branches. Or see Daniel 8 and claim that a goat with a giant horn is going to conquer the world.

The Revelation comes under a sub-genre of Prophetic literature called Apocalyptic. The visions found in books like Daniel and Zechariah are precursors to the Apocalyptic genre, a genre that became increasingly popular within Jewish culture in the first century AD. Apocalyptic literature is primarily identified by its highly symbolic and metaphoric language; John's vision fit that definition to a T. God spoke to John through symbols and metaphors; to say otherwise is to pretend that John was not a first-century Jew, to pretend that his revelation bears no similarities to Apocalyptic prophecy, even to pretend that Apocalyptic prophecy did not exist.

I see the 'death of men by the fire, smoke, and brimstone' as non-literal judgment language, typical of the Prophets.

[seeker_truth]

We read something like Isaiah 29 but don't interpret it as literally saying that God would unload thunder and earthquakes and tornadoes against Jerusalem just because an enemy nations has come against it (perhaps referring to Sennacherib's attack on the city). We come to Zechariah 4, but we don't conclude that a lampstand with 'Zerubbabel' engraved on it would come alive and build Jerusalem with its seven-tiered branches. Or see Daniel 8 and claim that a goat with a giant horn is going to conquer the world. The Revelation comes under a sub-genre of Prophetic literature called Apocalyptic. The visions found in books like Daniel and Zechariah are precursors to the Apocalyptic genre, a genre that became increasingly popular within Jewish culture in the first century AD. Apocalyptic literature is primarily identified by its highly symbolic and metaphoric language; John's vision fit that definition to a T. God spoke to John through symbols and metaphors; to say otherwise is to pretend that John was not a first-century Jew, to pretend that his revelation bears no similarities to Apocalyptic prophecy, even to pretend that Apocalyptic prophecy did not exist. I see the 'death of men by the fire, smoke, and brimstone' as non-literal judgment language, typical of the Prophets.The seals come in a theme of 'fourths' and 'fours' (four horsemen; the third horseman hits for four 'measures' total; the fourth horseman hits for one-fourth of the earth; etc.).

The trumpets come in a theme of 'thirds' and 'threes' (most of them are quite obvious).

The vials come in full.

My belief is that it is a depiction of John's vision escalating in intensity, rising up from one-fourth (the seals), to one-third (the trumpets), on to overflowing (the vials).

Ok, think I understand what you're saying...Can you explain how the 1st seal, trumpet, and vial occur, what happened and when?

[markedward]

(Hopefully Ben doesn't think we're hijacking his thread.)

Just to clarify, I don't believe the seven seals are events; it's not as if Jesus opens one seal, waits a year or hundred, then opens the next seal, and so on. Within John's vision, much of which is non-literal and non-linear, the seven seals are all broken immediately upon Jesus' ascension into heaven. Think of it as being what happened right after Jesus' disappeared from the sight of his disciples in Acts 1.

The first seal is the spread of the gospel into the world, beginning with the Apostles. The conquering rider of the white horse wears a stephanos crown. 'Conquering' is an action Jesus exhorts the seven churches to do, following his example ('To the one who conquers, he will receive...' ends each message to the seven churches, and 'Look! He has conquered! The lion of the tribe of Judah!'); the color white is only associated with the righteous throughout the book, as also the stephanos crown is only worn by the righteous. I'm not really sure what the 'bow' is meant to signify.

The first trumpet is not a specific event (well, the first four trumpets, really). It's metaphoric language like what we find in the Prophets that basically means 'God's judgment is come', referring to the general idea that the Romans crushing Judea in 66-70 AD were the 'days of vengeance' and 'wrath against this people' as Jesus had said in Luke 21. The same for the vials (although there are loose parallels found between the vials and things that happened in the war).

The way I see it is like this: we read Isaiah 34, where the Prophet is speaking about the fall of Edom (which took place by the time Malachi was written). Isaiah was not literally expecting the mountains to flow with the blood of the Edomites, for the stars to fall from the firmament, or for Yahweh to wield a galaxy-sized sword that first cuts apart the universe (and then the Edomites?), or for the land of Edom to turn into boiling tar (but that rogue animals will somehow be able to live there at the same time?). It's metaphoric language common for the Prophets. John's visions do the same thing, but in a more organized fashion (i.e. as seven seals, seven trumpets, seven vials).

[Nihil Obstat]

No, I don't think that you're hi-jacking the thread (which was created as a foundation for a future thread), and for fun I'll throw in my two cents. My own belief is that the first horseman represents the Parthian bowmen, who drove back the Roman army in 62 AD. I also believe that the color white and the stephanos crown represents "conquering" rather than "righteousness" (he went out conquering and to conquer). However, if you're set in thinking that the first rider represents the gospel going forth / the church, might you consider these Christians as being depicted here in the garb of Parthian soldiers? That would at least answer for the bow...

[vinsight4u8]

Sending this back for more discussion. Noting too that the vials make 14 judgments. The full strength judgments are not how God takes down Israel - but her enemy.

[Aservantonthemount]

(Hopefully Ben doesn't think we're hijacking his thread.)

Just to clarify, I don't believe the seven seals are events; it's not as if Jesus opens one seal, waits a year or hundred, then opens the next seal, and so on. Within John's vision, much of which is non-literal and non-linear, the seven seals are all broken immediately upon Jesus' ascension into heaven. Think of it as being what happened right after Jesus' disappeared from the sight of his disciples in Acts 1.

The first seal is the spread of the gospel into the world, beginning with the Apostles. The conquering rider of the white horse wears a stephanos crown. 'Conquering' is an action Jesus exhorts the seven churches to do, following his example ('To the one who conquers, he will receive...' ends each message to the seven churches, and 'Look! He has conquered! The lion of the tribe of Judah!'); the color white is only associated with the righteous throughout the book, as also the stephanos crown is only worn by the righteous. I'm not really sure what the 'bow' is meant to signify.

You are the first human to write this on this forum that I am aware of. You are absolutely correct on the first seal being the church. I am open as far as the seals are concerned, in possibly agreeing with you, Markedward. After the seals, I do believe that although the trumpets and vials are all full of allegory, the wording denotes a sequence of events, especially after the fourth trumpet. Just putting in my two cents. Marked, this might a good topic to start a thread on... again, just my two cents.

[Vakeros]

You are the first human to write this on this forum that I am aware of. You are absolutely correct on the first seal being the church. I am open as far as the seals are concerned, in possibly agreeing with you, Markedward. After the seals, I do believe that although the trumpets and vials are all full of allegory, the wording denotes a sequence of events, especially after the fourth trumpet. Just putting in my two cents. Marked, this might a good topic to start a thread on... again, just my two cents.

Interesting choice of words - do you not consider yourself human too?

When I found this forum I was expecting to find a thread like this, but got side tracked by the things that were already here. I believe that the trumpets and bowls/vials are each chronological. The bits in between though I don't think are, but are rather bringing understanding either about what was just foreseen, or about what is still to be seen, or just to bring understanding about everything.

For the seals - I had a different idea altogether - I understand the seals as not being part of the story which will unroll, but rather setting the scene with the major powers that are abroad in this world.
1st Seal - White horse so meant to be clean. Maybe the bow should be Cupid's firing arrows of love, but too often in history was one of crusades and so militant Christendom.
2nd Seal - Fiery Red horse so meant to show anger and hot emotions. "Might makes right" which in the modern world has been translated into "power to the people" and so Communism.
3rd Seal - Justice and equality, the scales meant to balance things out, but to often tipped toward those with money and so Capitalism.
4th Seal - Green horse (incorrectly translated as pale horse, everywhere else in the Bible and in the wider world the word is translated as verdant green) so meant to be representing Life and Growth, yet the rider was Death and Hades. I believe this is religion masquerading as bringing truth and life, but in reality, brings the sword and starvation (physically as well as spiritually) and so most clearly seen in Islam.

The next three read as events and suggest chronology, but may also represent a belief.

5th Seal - No horse but an altar, waiting for Jesus and His justice and vengeance, and so the True Church.
6th Seal - Forces of nature, bad things happen, Acts of God (especially as insurance companies put it ), fatalism and so Evolution.
7th Seal - Silence, the place where God will speak, the true power and so God.

I believe all these forces are at play in the world (potentially they have been so in various guises since the 1st Century. You could have attributed different examples for all of them then, but I think it is the power behind it as it were rather than the present form that is crucial.) All these powers bar the 7th (God) are going to be broken in the upheavals that are going to take place. Only one of these is going to emerge greater than it was beforehand - the True Church.

What will happen in the reading of the scroll will lead to each power being examined and shown for what it is.