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Thread: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

  1. #16
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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Some animals were created on the 5th day so that doesn't really work out. People attribute evil things and man and who knows what else to the number 6...but the bible doesn't. Sure in Gen 1 man is created on the 6th day...I don't find that such a big deal in relation to the number 6. The more one investigates all this numerology the more you will find that it's almost meaningless.
    I agree that some put too much significance on numerology in the Word, however, if you allow the Bible to interpret the Bible, you would have to agree that in those cases they definitely have significance.

    For instance, John makes it a point to tell us that 666 is the number of a man (whether the beast is a man or that 6 is the number of man). John was well aware that man was created on the sixth day, and thus, (I believe) was thinking this when mentioning the number 666.

    Paul says to the Corinthians that he has come to them "3" times and that by the mouth of 2 or "3" witnesses that every word would be established (2 Cor. 13:1). Was Paul being cute in taking this Moses command out of context? By that I mean, its obvious both Jesus and Moses were referring to 2 or 3 people as witnesses and not the visiting of an Apostle to the same city 3 times as representing a witness. The number "3" in this instance seemed to have importance to Paul, and so it should also mean something to me.

    So then, if the writers of the Word make an issue of numbers, I believe we should not be ignorant of their importance. Peter told me not to be ignorant of this very thing, "1" day is as a "1,000" years and a "1,000" years as "1" day. I may not be able to expound on the importance of 1 or 1,000, but it must be important if Peter says we shouldn't be ignorant of it (2 Pet. 3:8).

  2. #17

    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I agree that some put too much significance on numerology in the Word, however, if you allow the Bible to interpret the Bible, you would have to agree that in those cases they definitely have significance.
    I haven't found that to be the case.

    For instance, John makes it a point to tell us that 666 is the number of a man (whether the beast is a man or that 6 is the number of man). John was well aware that man was created on the sixth day, and thus, (I believe) was thinking this when mentioning the number 666.
    That's not why. The 666 is the number of the name of the beast. Many feel the man's name adds up to 666. But 666 only appears in Rev so it's not a useful example.


    Paul says to the Corinthians that he has come to them "3" times and that by the mouth of 2 or "3" witnesses that every word would be established (2 Cor. 13:1). Was Paul being cute in taking this Moses command out of context?
    And? I see nothing of significance there.

    By that I mean, its obvious both Jesus and Moses were referring to 2 or 3 people as witnesses and not the visiting of an Apostle to the same city 3 times as representing a witness. The number "3" in this instance seemed to have importance to Paul, and so it should also mean something to me.
    I doubt it meant anything to Paul.

    So then, if the writers of the Word make an issue of numbers, I believe we should not be ignorant of their importance.

    I've not seen such an example so far.

    Peter told me not to be ignorant of this very thing, "1" day is as a "1,000" years and a "1,000" years as "1" day. I may not be able to expound on the importance of 1 or 1,000, but it must be important if Peter says we shouldn't be ignorant of it (2 Pet. 3:8).
    Sure, my understanding of this is that to God 1,000 of our years is like a day. That's fine but 6 meaning man or something evil and 7 being good or completion is simply silliness.

  3. #18
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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post

    That's fine but 6 meaning man or something evil and 7 being good or completion is simply silliness.
    I see the number 7 so often in the Bible that it is hard for me to believe that it has no significance. If you just look up "third day" or "three days" in the OT and NT, you will find some extraordinary events tied to it. It can't all be just coincidence or silliness. And why would they be attached to important principles, items or events? Why aren't there a lot of "fourth day" or five days, etc. "Third day" seems significant, whether I completely understand it or not.

  4. #19

    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I see the number 7 so often in the Bible that it is hard for me to believe that it has no significance.
    Basically everything has "significance" but the issue here is does the number 7 mean something specific? What do you think it stands for?

  5. #20
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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Basically everything has "significance" but the issue here is does the number 7 mean something specific? What do you think it stands for?
    From the context of the Scripture references it is found, I would have to say it speaks of completion, or perfection, rest(oration). I am not saying, by any means, that the number seven, in itself, has any mystical or magical meaning (i.e. Lucky 7's), or if I decide to buy a house and its address is 666 Main St., I should avoid doing it because its bad luck. Now that, I agree, is silliness.

  6. #21

    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    From the context of the Scripture references it is found, I would have to say it speaks of completion, or perfection, rest(oration).
    Luk_8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

    This woman had seven devils in her, for who knows how long. Was she "complete" when she had seven devils in her? Was she "perfect"? Did she have any rest when she had them? Only when she had zero devils could any of those definitions apply.

    Numbers *SOMETIMES* have the same meaning....but not always so the fact that they sometimes share the same meaning is really not that significant. These things don't aid in biblical studies, or learning the truth from the scriptures or understanding this or that passage. Numerology is a pseudo-science.

  7. #22
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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Luk_8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

    This woman had seven devils in her, for who knows how long. Was she "complete" when she had seven devils in her? Was she "perfect"? Did she have any rest when she had them? Only when she had zero devils could any of those definitions apply.

    Numbers *SOMETIMES* have the same meaning....but not always so the fact that they sometimes share the same meaning is really not that significant. These things don't aid in biblical studies, or learning the truth from the scriptures or understanding this or that passage. Numerology is a pseudo-science.
    I think you are being too literal. These verses are pretty simple to understand by reading them and we get the practical message: "Jesus heals, Jesus cleanses demons." However, when I teach this passage, I look for the prophetic application. I may say something like: "Mary is the church, and she is 'completely' full of sin/demons, and Jesus comes and cleanses it and sanctifies it by the washing of the water by the word." (Eph. 5:26). Or maybe compare it to Jesus clearing out the temple, which had become a full abomination/den of thieves, and not the house of prayer it was intended.

    Now I know you will argue that I am not using proper hermeneutics (sic), but I will argue that Jesus and the New Testament writers did the same thing. A couple examples of the top of my head:

    1. Jesus compared Himself to the snake on the pole in the wilderness. If He hadn't said that in John 3:14, and I was telling you that Jesus is like the snake, you would have said I am not reading the Word right.

    2. Paul uses an analogy of Sarah/Hagar = New/Old Covenant = New/Old Jerusalem = Grace/Law etc. in Gal. 4. If Paul never used this analogy and I told you that Hagar corresponds to Judaism/Law and Sarah to Grace/Freedom, you would say I am "spiritualizing" the Scripture.

    3. The NT writers sometimes add or remove or change certain portions of OT Scripture to make it work. They were speaking by revelation of the Holy Spirit, so I cannot question their methods. Examples: Peter added "of" to Joel's prophecy about the Holy Ghost outpouring at Pentecost. Paul turns the "Him" to the "them" who preach good news. The writer of Hebrews changes the Habakkuk quote from "it" (the vision) to "Him" (Jesus). Are these writers out of order, or do they see the spiritual application of literal events, recorded words, and prophecies?

    I do the same in my teaching, always being careful to follow the rule that: "no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."

  8. #23

    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I think you are being too literal.
    I'm no more or less literal than the text. Simply put the supposed meaning of seven doesn't apply here. It's spurious...

    "Mary is the church, and she is 'completely' full of sin/demons
    Someone else had a legion of devils, which is about 490 or so....so Mary was hardly "completely full"....she barely had company!

  9. #24
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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I'm no more or less literal than the text. Simply put the supposed meaning of seven doesn't apply here. It's spurious...



    Someone else had a legion of devils, which is about 490 or so....so Mary was hardly "completely full"....she barely had company!

    Even 490 seems to have some spiritual significance. Dan. 9's 70x7 (490) concerns redemption through forgiveness of sins, and so does the amount of time daily we are to forgive 70x7 (490).

    I think numbers have significance in the Bible, you do not. There is no way to reconcile that, because we both see pictures, types, numbers, symbols differently. We both must rely on the Holy Spirit first to guide into all truth, and secondly, use the brain He gave us.

  10. #25

    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    Even 490 seems to have some spiritual significance.
    lol, of course it does!

    Dan. 9's 70x7 (490) concerns redemption through forgiveness of sins, and so does the amount of time daily we are to forgive 70x7 (490).
    Not impressed. Besides, I guess I was wrong, Legions could contain as many as 6000...oh well.

    I think numbers have significance in the Bible, you do not.
    I never said that but I don't exaggerate what numbers mean.


    There is no way to reconcile that, because we both see pictures, types, numbers, symbols differently. We both must rely on the Holy Spirit first to guide into all truth, and secondly, use the brain He gave us.
    Yup.

  11. #26
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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Exactly. 6 supposedly means evil and the wickedness of mankind, satan but clearly it doesn't there.


    Rev 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
    Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
    Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

    Yet here we have beasts which has 6 wings. I can't see how the typical meanings for the number 6 could be applied here. They are not men, they are not evil, they serve the Lord God Almighty not satan...God made them with 6 wings but I see nothing symbolic about them having 6 wings.

    Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
    Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.





    I have no idea what you are talking about. I oppose "dogmatic hermeneutic principles which contradict the plain read". I don't see numbers being highly significant. Sometimes they seem to have the same type of meaning but other times those meanings are contradicted as you yourself just showed.





    Not at all. I have no idea where you got any of those notions. I don't give the text a hard time but ridiculous interpretations of the text or any supposed notions that numbers have such a grand symbolic meaning.
    In all fairness to you, EW, this is an odd thread, and you have answered my concerns about your tude effectively. I agree with your general approach to numbers in general.

    Yes, I got your view confused with those guys over at age of the earth. But you were the one saying the bible says nothing about the earth's age, and so I found it telling you found little significance in numbers in the Bible. But at the end of this thread you say everything has signif in the Bible, so you restated your position to be more clear, I think.

    Not only that, but you argue well for a plain read and its general meaning.

    That's were I have trouble with you arguing on the age of earth thread that a gap is "possible". There are zero referents for it in Ge or anywhere else in scripture. Only 4.5 bil makes people look for a gap, and you say you are not after 4.5. Good. So why ague with me about the age of earth being up to 6 days before the creation of adam? Only bc you don't take the days literally, I guess. Of course, I could care less, except that the text makes it clear these are oridinary days by Moses' standards while this text is being written during the 40 year walk about of the Israelites, no doubt.

    So far as 6 and 7, they are hugely significant B/c that 's the number of man's day of creation, it's his # in rev, repeated 3 times, and 7 is associated with completion of the creation, rest and the sabbath.

    I think our contention is in the Genesis thread, so I will resume with this there.
    Love first, ... answer questions ... later ...

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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    I have found that when I go feeding upon God's word for something new about Him that He has ready to share with me, something that He desires me to know or understand, then His word interprets itself for me. (all of it, even symbolism and prophecy)

    I have found that when I go feeding upon God's word for something that I desire to understand, then I come away confused and then go about spreading that same confusion among my fellow creatures...

    If we desire to understand something specific from God, then search for Him in His word and/or in prayer ONLY !
    Then He will give us every answer/every desire of our hearts.
    But, in His timing and not ours.

    Men do not have the answer for us !
    So, be patient and content with what He has afforded you thus far, and wait !
    When He knows you need (and He does know) when He knows you need the answer to 7 and 8 symbolism then is when He will give it to you.
    Or/also you can continue seeking Him in His word just to find Him alone, and in His timing His Spirit in you will interpret the answer for you, as long as you are seeking Him and not seeking a specific answer.
    Because if you are seeking a specific answer, then by default you are not seeking Him, and He will not give you what you are seeking/your desires until you seek Him and not your desire
    (no matter if your desire is good or bad, makes no difference).

    Again, He will answer/fulfill any/every desire of those who love Him, not to the ones who seek and love their own desires (good or bad desire) which in this case is the symbolic definition in numerology, but He will give any/everything to those who seek Him, always !



    Father bless and have mercy on us.

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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Some animals were created on the 5th day so that doesn't really work out.

    I used the term "beast" instead of animal because the birds and the fish were created on the 5th day, but the "beast" of the field and man were created on the 6th day.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoreMercy View Post
    I have found that when I go feeding upon God's word for something new about Him that He has ready to share with me, something that He desires me to know or understand, then His word interprets itself for me. (all of it, even symbolism and prophecy)

    I have found that when I go feeding upon God's word for something that I desire to understand, then I come away confused and then go about spreading that same confusion among my fellow creatures...

    If we desire to understand something specific from God, then search for Him in His word and/or in prayer ONLY !
    Then He will give us every answer/every desire of our hearts.
    But, in His timing and not ours.

    Men do not have the answer for us !
    So, be patient and content with what He has afforded you thus far, and wait !
    When He knows you need (and He does know) when He knows you need the answer to 7 and 8 symbolism then is when He will give it to you.
    Or/also you can continue seeking Him in His word just to find Him alone, and in His timing His Spirit in you will interpret the answer for you, as long as you are seeking Him and not seeking a specific answer.
    Because if you are seeking a specific answer, then by default you are not seeking Him, and He will not give you what you are seeking/your desires until you seek Him and not your desire
    (no matter if your desire is good or bad, makes no difference).

    Again, He will answer/fulfill any/every desire of those who love Him, not to the ones who seek and love their own desires (good or bad desire) which in this case is the symbolic definition in numerology, but He will give any/everything to those who seek Him, always !



    Father bless and have mercy on us.

    YOu are so right on this.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  15. #30

    Re: 7 & 8 According To Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post

    That's were I have trouble with you arguing on the age of earth thread that a gap is "possible". There are zero referents for it in Ge or anywhere else in scripture. Only 4.5 bil makes people look for a gap, and you say you are not after 4.5. Good. So why ague with me about the age of earth being up to 6 days before the creation of adam?
    God does not always tell us there is a gap when there is just like God doesn't tell us Revelation jumps from one time period to the next in the same chapter. I do belieev the Earth was created, then there is a period of time not discussed, then later God starts with the first day of creation in Gen 1:2


    Only bc you don't take the days literally, I guess. Of course, I could care less, except that the text makes it clear these are oridinary days by Moses' standards while this text is being written during the 40 year walk about of the Israelites, no doubt.

    I really am not concerned whether the days were 24 hours, 12 hours, or 1,000 year long days.


    So far as 6 and 7, they are hugely significant B/c that 's the number of man's day of creation, it's his # in rev, repeated 3 times,
    What do you mean it's "his number"?



    and 7 is associated with completion of the creation
    Oh? Are you sure the completed creation you speak of didn't complete on day 6? Hmmmm?? Seems to me that no creating occurred on day 7.


    , rest and the sabbath.
    At one time yes, but since Christ fulfilled the Sabbath, this resting is no longer related to the 7th day.

    I think our contention is in the Genesis thread, so I will resume with this there.
    Methinks you opened a can of worms here lol

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