7 Year Tribulation Challenged

[DurbanDude]

I challenged both preterists and futurists to re-examine their view in this thread:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...moved-from-ETC

I see that it was mainly preterists who responded in that thread, and so I started this thread for futurists to respond to.
All verses that refer to a future period of persecution or tribulation refer to a short period or 3.5 years and NOT 7 years. The only place in the bible that refers to this 7 year period is Daniel 9:27: And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations `shall come' one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall `wrath' be poured out upon the desolate.

When reading this verse for the first time many years ago I was immediately struck by the similarity of the highlighted events with Jesus' own life. God made a covenant with the Jews that He would send them a Messiah to set them free. In the autumn of 26AD Jesus was anointed, this is the coming of the anointed one as per Daniel 9:25. Jesus then confirmed to Israel that he was the Messiah. 3.5 years later Jesus was crucified as the last acceptable sacrifice of the age. Jesus therefore put an end to sacrifice 3.5 years after confirming the greatest ever covenant, God's promise to send a Messiah.

Surely Jesus' 3.5 years of ministry would deserve some mention in Daniel's 490 year period for the Jews? Why would some antichrist's covenant deserve more mention than Jesus Himself confirming the greatest ever covenant of God's promise to send a Messiah to save the Jews and bring peace to mankind? And why would only the coming of the anointed one and not the greatest event ever , the CRUCIFIXION of the anointed one deserve any attention in the 490 year period? I therefore believe the 7 year trib view is incorrect because it ignores the strength of Jesus' fulfilment of Daniel 9:27 and thereby leaves the ministry of Jesus as unmentioned in the 490 year period of the Jews. It also places the crucifixion outside of the 490 year period in favour of a future approach to the verse.

Additionally why is there no mention of any warnings about a 7 year period and an antichrist's so-called covenant in the gospels or anywhere else in the NT? I believe its because the future tribulation is only 3.5 years long and starts with an abomination which is an evil display in Jerusalem. Any comments welcome.

[Cyberseeker]

Good thread Durban. So was the other one.

I challenged both preterists and futurists to re-examine their view in this thread:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...moved-from-ETC

I see that it was mainly preterists who responded in that thread, and so I started this thread for futurists to respond to.

I am amillenial and believe a short, sharp tribulation is yet future.

Surely Jesus' 3.5 years of ministry would deserve some mention in Daniel's 490 year period for the Jews?

Surely indeed!

I therefore believe the 7 year trib view is incorrect because it ignores the strength of Jesus' fulfilment of Daniel 9:27 and thereby leaves the ministry of Jesus as unmentioned in the 490 year period of the Jews. It also places the crucifixion outside of the 490 year period in favour of a future approach to the verse.

Shocking! And to think that we used to believe it!

Additionally why is there no mention of any warnings about a 7 year period and an antichrist's so-called covenant in the gospels or anywhere else in the NT?

Uh, yeah. Why?

[Beckrl]

Although I'm Preterist I would agree that there's no seven years of tribulation. There is only mention of 42 months or 1290 days that is the making of only half of the seven years. According to Daniel it's in the middle of a seven year period that this time of persecution begun. I would see the same parallel in the NT according to Revelation.

[Caleb]

We have the Gentiles trampling the outer court for 42 months, the two witnesses 42 months, and the 3rd woe is still yet to come. If the 3rd woe is to those who dwell on the earth and sea because of Satan being thrown down to earth, then how long is that period for?

[Luciano Vinci]

I am not sure there will be a global tribulation, if there will be one at all. Even if the markets in Europe fail and the U.S. economy tanks, and some natural disasters hit, I don't see how it will be much worse for nations such as Haiti where the economy already stinks, poverty is a way of life and death happens daily, not to mention the earthquake that killed so many people that our minds cannot comprehend the devastation.

Historical events like Europe's black plague which killed about 1 of every 3 people, Stalin starving 10 million Ukrainian's, Hitler killing 6 million Jews and others, not to mention other slaughters in nations we forget about, show that tribulation in the world is relative to where you live.

If you are a Christian in Egypt today it is the beginning of your tribulation period, if you are a Christian in China, you have had your share of tribulation. Our tribulation (U.S.) will hit eventually. Every nation that rejects Christ will eventually face judgment. God has been merciful.

We are so egocentric that we think if tribulation doesn't involve the U.S., Europe or Israel then it has nothing to do with God. All of our eschatology surrounds our civilization. Do you think the Christians in Korea or China have an eschatology that focuses on America. If they even have an eschatology, I bet their end time preachers are centered and what God is doing in Southeast Asia and how it has to do with His Coming.

[DurbanDude]

Good thread Durban. So was the other one.

Thanks for the support, I would rep you for that but the computer says I've given you too many

[DurbanDude]

We have the Gentiles trampling the outer court for 42 months, the two witnesses 42 months, and the 3rd woe is still yet to come. If the 3rd woe is to those who dwell on the earth and sea because of Satan being thrown down to earth, then how long is that period for?

Although I disagree with you I did appreciate the logic of your answer. However on closer examination the timing of the woes agrees with what I'm saying. You see, the two witnesses end their ministry with a resurrection, which occurs just before the kingdoms come under Christ's control. So Rev 11 is placing the 42 months of the two witnesses and the trampling of the outer court as the 3.5 years preceding the resurrection and second coming.

11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As usual, the end of the 3.5 year period and the resurrection, the great earthquake, the sounding of the trumpet and kingdoms subjugated by Christ, all occur together. The last event of is the subjugation of the kingdoms, this is described as the third and final woe and occurs after God's witnesses have been removed from earth. This is the seventh trumpet.

Rev 12 is a seperate vision unrelated to the 7 trumpets and the third woe. This also has a 3.5 year period which overlaps with the 3.5 year period of Rev 13 because they are both a period of Satan's domination on earth, and a period of persecution of the saints. So the context of ALL these 3.5 year periods fits most easily into the period immediately preceding the 2nd coming, and not any previous period.

[Adstars]

I challenged both preterists and futurists to re-examine their view in this thread:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...moved-from-ETC

I see that it was mainly preterists who responded in that thread, and so I started this thread for futurists to respond to.
All verses that refer to a future period of persecution or tribulation refer to a short period or 3.5 years and NOT 7 years. The only place in the bible that refers to this 7 year period is Daniel 9:27: And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations `shall come' one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall `wrath' be poured out upon the desolate.

When reading this verse for the first time many years ago I was immediately struck by the similarity of the highlighted events with Jesus' own life. God made a covenant with the Jews that He would send them a Messiah to set them free. In the autumn of 26AD Jesus was anointed, this is the coming of the anointed one as per Daniel 9:25. Jesus then confirmed to Israel that he was the Messiah. 3.5 years later Jesus was crucified as the last acceptable sacrifice of the age. Jesus therefore put an end to sacrifice 3.5 years after confirming the greatest ever covenant, God's promise to send a Messiah.

Surely Jesus' 3.5 years of ministry would deserve some mention in Daniel's 490 year period for the Jews? Why would some antichrist's covenant deserve more mention than Jesus Himself confirming the greatest ever covenant of God's promise to send a Messiah to save the Jews and bring peace to mankind? And why would only the coming of the anointed one and not the greatest event ever , the CRUCIFIXION of the anointed one deserve any attention in the 490 year period? I therefore believe the 7 year trib view is incorrect because it ignores the strength of Jesus' fulfilment of Daniel 9:27 and thereby leaves the ministry of Jesus as unmentioned in the 490 year period of the Jews. It also places the crucifixion outside of the 490 year period in favour of a future approach to the verse.

Additionally why is there no mention of any warnings about a 7 year period and an antichrist's so-called covenant in the gospels or anywhere else in the NT? I believe its because the future tribulation is only 3.5 years long and starts with an abomination which is an evil display in Jerusalem. Any comments welcome.

Not all futurists believe in a 7 year tribulation.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[divaD]

All verses that refer to a future period of persecution or tribulation refer to a short period or 3.5 years and NOT 7 years. The only place in the bible that refers to this 7 year period is Daniel 9:27: And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations `shall come' one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall `wrath' be poured out upon the desolate.

When reading this verse for the first time many years ago I was immediately struck by the similarity of the highlighted events with Jesus' own life. God made a covenant with the Jews that He would send them a Messiah to set them free. In the autumn of 26AD Jesus was anointed, this is the coming of the anointed one as per Daniel 9:25. Jesus then confirmed to Israel that he was the Messiah. 3.5 years later Jesus was crucified as the last acceptable sacrifice of the age. Jesus therefore put an end to sacrifice 3.5 years after confirming the greatest ever covenant, God's promise to send a Messiah.

I'm just not convinced Jesus' sacrifice had anything to do with Daniel 9:27 one way or the other. I don't even see where or why Jesus would be in the context of that verse.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

IOW....

And JESUS shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week JESUS shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations JESUS shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Seriously, how does that make sense? For one thing, any covenant related to Jesus would be an everlasting covenant that would be confirmed forever pretty much, and not just 7 years. And what about this part...and for the overspreading of abominations JESUS shall make it desolate. In what way did that happen? My point is, just because this part..and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..seems to be about Jesus, we still have to reconcile the other parts of the passage as well, and how they would relate to Jesus, since this verse is about one person in particular.

[Luciano Vinci]

The second part of this verse is parenthetical, speaking of the event AD70. Just like the people of the prince (Titus and the Romans) destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary is parenthetical in verse 26. All of verse 25 concerns the Messiah and all happened at the cross 3.5 years into the 70th week. Verse 27 Speaks of Jesus confirming the covenant with the Jews (Daniel's people, the context of Dan. 9) for 7 years.

This seven year total period began at the Jordan and ended with the death of Stephen, salvation and Holy Ghost outpouring on the Gentiles at Cornelious' house and the move of the center of Christianity from Jerusalem to Antioch, where they were first called Christian (approx. 3.5 years after the Cross).

So if you look at 26 and 27 together you will see that the first he refers to the Messiah, while the second he in each verse refers to he (the prince) Titus. Another way to look at it, is the ultimately Jesus orchestrated the whole thing anyway, even if it was the prince who did the dirty work 40 years later. Statements such as Mt. 23:38 where He is speaking to the Jews saying your house is left unto you "desolate," thus predicting their demise. He tells them that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to another nation (ethnos = heathen, gentiles).

Thus, Dan. 9 speaks of the end of the covenant with natural Jew and with the earthly Jerusalem. And now we enjoy the heavenly Jerusalem and are all partakers of the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise, which we didn't have any part of until the end of the 70th week. Now in Christ Jesus we who were afar off (non Jews) are made near by the blood of Jesus, and through Him we both (Jew and Greek) have access by one Spirit unto the Father. We are One New Man. All of Eph. 2 gives us this picture of the end of Judaism and the beginning of our new birth.

[David Taylor]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

IOW....

And JESUS shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week JESUS shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations JESUS shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Seriously, how does that make sense? For one thing, any covenant related to Jesus would be an everlasting covenant that would be confirmed forever pretty much, and not just 7 years. And what about this part...and for the overspreading of abominations JESUS shall make it desolate. In what way did that happen? My point is, just because this part..and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..seems to be about Jesus, we still have to reconcile the other parts of the passage as well, and how they would relate to Jesus, since this verse is about one person in particular.

Because the intent of the verse above is not to limit the covenant to one week. [for] is an English addition, firstly, and secondly, it is simply saying that the confirmation of this covenant will occur in the last, 70th week....that is the 'one week' that is left that is being discussed in verses 9:26 and 27. The 70th week actually started in 9:25 with the killing of Jesus after the 70th week had already started (which is 'after' the 69th week that it mentions the crucifixion occuring).

Rewording your reword to make clearer sense with the intent would be....

And JESUS shall confirm the (everlasting) covenant with many -- one week(in the last 70th 'one week' He is crucified in per verse 9:25): and in the midst of (aka sometime within) the (final 70th week that He is crucified) week JESUS shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(by His acceptable sacrificial death), and for the overspreading of abominations JESUS shall make it (the old temple made with hands and it's imperfect rituals) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[vinsight4u8]

The 7-yr covenant is mentioned in a way several times.

Jesus told us - when ye see -spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Let him that readeth understand.

Paul told the church to recall what he had spoken to them about in the past.
He had told them about a man that exalts himself above all that is called god.
This would now link back to Daniel 11:21-36.

v36
And the king...shall exalt himself...

v 23
And after the league made with him...
/league-covenant

When Gabriel came to Daniel in chapter 9, he was coming to help give Daniel understanding of Jeremiah's 70-yr he shall desolate prophecy. Gabriel was not sent to just reveal more prophecy information as a routine act. Gabriel came on a mission to give Daniel understanding as to when the Babylonian king would rise again.

Gabriel told Daniel to consider the vision. Daniel had not seen a vision in chapter 9, so this links back to chapter 8.
Daniel 8 shows a king comes from the east after the transgressors are come to the full.
Daniel 8 also referred to how by peace he shall destroy many.

Jeremiah 25:11-12 - links to Daniel 9:2, 27.

A Babylonian king will come back.
One must finish the time that remains of the 70 years of Babylon over the nations, desolating Jerusalem.

After this, Jer. 25:12 shows the king of Babylon will be punished and his land of Chaldea.
/Iraq
desolated

Nebuchadnezzar and other Babylon kings-- to Darius the Mede - 605 BC-539 BC
then Cyrus - first year of the Persian king - 535 BC/Jews released

The time of Darius and Cyrus did not count in the time needed for Jer. 25:11.
Israel must go back under a Babylonian king.

[DurbanDude]

And JESUS shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week JESUS shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations JESUS shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Seriously, how does that make sense? For one thing, any covenant related to Jesus would be an everlasting covenant that would be confirmed forever pretty much, and not just 7 years. And what about this part...and for the overspreading of abominations JESUS shall make it desolate. In what way did that happen? My point is, just because this part..and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..seems to be about Jesus, we still have to reconcile the other parts of the passage as well, and how they would relate to Jesus, since this verse is about one person in particular.

I deliberately chose the American Standard bible as representative of more than half of the English translations. You see the identity of the one who confirms the covenant and the one who sets up the abomination are DIFFERENT in most translations. HE confirms the covenant and ONE/DESOLATOR sets up the abomination.

9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many [for] one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations [there shall be] a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate. (Darby)

Translations:
KJV - one character
American Standard - two characters
NIV - one character
NIV footnote - two characters (footnote is a viable alternative translation)
Amplified - two characters
Darby - two characters
Jewish Publication society - two characters
Webster - one character
World english - two characters
Youngs - one character
New Living - one character
New Life - two characters
Holman - two characters
Good news translation - two characters
God's Word translation - two characters (he + "disgusting things")
English Standard Version - two characters
Douay Rheims - two characters
Common english Bible - two characters

I left out bibles that were just updates of previous versions, taking into account that the NIV is a split decision, we have 12.5 out of 17 translation agreeing that two characters are in mind. The "he" of the covenant is not involved in the abomination/desolation in 12.5 translations. Which means the standard 7 year trib view of an antichrist that has a covenant for 7 years AND sets up an abomination CONTRADICTS 73.5 % OF ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS.

So the view that "he" sets up the abomination, I would say is debatable and should be re-examined based on history,context and wording.

[DurbanDude]

I'm just not convinced Jesus' sacrifice had anything to do with Daniel 9:27 one way or the other. I don't even see where or why Jesus would be in the context of that verse.
.

A) Because when Daniel is told the Jews have a 490 year period of destiny, the greatest ever event in the history of Jews and mankind should be included.

B) Because Jesus life does match Daniel 9:27 in 4 seperate ways, ie an EXACT match:
1) God promised Israel a Messiah to save them , Jesus fulfilled this covenant. At the very moment you would expect a great covenant fulfilled at year 483 of the 490 years, Jesus was anointed and confirmed the covenant.
2) His ministry was 3.5 years long
3) He put an end to sacrifice
4) The timing was PERFECT if you take into account the issuing of Artaxerxes decree to the governors of Trans-Euphrates in 458BC

For one thing, any covenant related to Jesus would be an everlasting covenant that would be confirmed forever pretty much, and not just 7 years.

For 7 years Jesus is bringing salvation to the Jews. This is seperate to Jesus' eternal promises.
A Preterist view: for the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry and the 3.5 years following the crucifixion Jesus was bringing salvation exclusively to the Jews. (this does have some logic to it, but with unconfirmed dates and theologically doubtful)
My view: for the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry and the future 3.5 year period of protection for Israel as per Rev 12, Jesus brings salvation to the Jews. (obviously debatable - involves a gap in the 490 year period)

My point is, just because this part..and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..seems to be about Jesus, we still have to reconcile the other parts of the passage as well, and how they would relate to Jesus, since this verse is about one person in particular

Definitely! I wouldn't believe as I do if it didn't make sense. The alternative, that somehow the details of the antichrist's 2 x 3.5 year periods deserve mention in the 490 year period, but the details of Jesus' 3.5 year ministry do not deserve mention in the 490 year period, seems highly unrealistic.

The only realistic decree that can fit into Jesus' crucifixion in 30AD is the decree of Artaxerxes in 458 BC, which would entail a 486.5 year period until the crucifixion and not a 483 year period between the decree and the "coming" as claimed by the std dispy view. This would leave only 3.5 post-crucifixion years of fulfilment.

[DurbanDude]

Not all futurists believe in a 7 year tribulation.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Great! Count me in as a definite futurist who does not believe in a 7 year trib. But some still believe in a 7 year period of which only 3.5 years is actual tribulation. Is this what you believe, or do you agree with me on 3.5 years only?