7 Year Tribulation Challenged

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

Yeshua's message was to Jews, something Jews would instantly recognize as an Abomination, and as The one Spoken of by Daniel. This more then any other passage can't be interpreted allegorically or symbolically or Spiritually, Yeshua's whole point was even the most skeptical will know it.

[Luciano Vinci]

Yeshua's message was to Jews, something Jews would instantly recognize as an Abomination, and as The one Spoken of by Daniel. This more then any other passage can't be interpreted allegorically or symbolically or Spiritually, Yeshua's whole point was even the most skeptical will know it.

The Old Testament is full of examples of abominations that went unrecognized. Too many to list, but just a few of the obvious ones should do. Golden Calf incident was a great abomination. Eli's sons did some horrible things with no apparent recognition from the people. All the book of Judges are filled with abominations done by Israel: human sacrifice, homosexuality and some of the weirdest stuff you can imagine, while everyone did what was right in their own eyes. Northern Kingdom set up golden images, and thought nothing about its idolatry. Solomon became a huge idolater, and so did the majority of the kings of Israel, with no recognition by anyone but the prophets (who were often silenced).

If the Jews could recognize what an abomination is, the Lord would not speak things such as they have eyes but can't see and ears but don't hear.

They did not recognize the Lord of Glory, how could they ever recognize any further abominations, without the Lord Himself opening their eyes?

[DurbanDude]

Where would you rank the importance of knowing the tribulation period was a little shorter rather than a little longer in your Top 10 things a Christian should know? And if we lived 500 years ago, would our priorities on what is Scripturally important be the same?

These are off the top of my head, so I am sure I will miss a few important things:

1. Jesus is Lord, Love (and a bunch of other adjectives)
2. Salvation in Christ alone
3. Repentance from dead works
4. Faith toward God
5. Baptism in water, Spirit, and whatever other baptisms there are
6. Gifts to the Church, including offices
7. Grace vs. Law
8. Our position in Christ (heavenly)
9. Eternal Life or Death
10. Unity of the Body of Christ
.
.
.
.
.
18,786. The Tribulation will only last 3.5 years and not that so much larger 7 year period.

LOL, I like your thinking. Well the bible does devote a large portion to the end-times. Maybe we should be devoting the same % to understanding the end-times. Its said that approximately 20% of the bible is prophecy. Maybe 10% of the NT is devoted to the end-times, so understanding the end-times is significant on God's agenda.

[DurbanDude]

I also responded to your original thread, linked to in the OP.

Ussher agreed that the John 2 Cleansing dates itself to 30 AD, and sources his argument well. But he unfortunately placed the Crucifixion in 33 AD.

The day year comment was just one way to address your argument about the witnesses, there are many sense sin which the Kingdoms of the World become Yeshua's. In my opinion the fact that Israel is in the Wildness during the 2nd half means the Wintess must be the first half. Their Ministry is to Israel, and is linked to John's vision of the Temple at a time when the traditional worship is being kept (Thus before the Abomination) and only the Outer Court (Where the Dome of the Rock and the other Mosque are) is given to the Gentiles.

Ever thought that it all overlaps smoothly?
For example, the period that Israel is in the wilderness is also a 3.5 year persecution period according to Rev 12. Which matches the 3.5 year persecution period of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, both of which precede the second coming.

This would mean that the witnesses are in Jerusalem during the persecution period, whilst Israel itself is protected from Satan. There is special protection for Jews then according to Rev 12.

Also if you look at the symbol of a candlestick in Revelation, the candlestick specifically represents the church members in a city. Thus the two candlesticks are two churches based in Jerusalem. there is no reason whatsoever to assume that they will have their own personal resurrection, the resurrection of the witnesses fits in with the timing of the general resurrection. What John is seeing in Rev 12 is a 3.5 year period of the church in Jerusalem preaching, followed by their resurrection and the second coming.

1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

The Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, not symbolic of anything.

The 3 and a Half days could just be another example of the Author trying to find different ways to say 3 and a half years

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

The Old Testament is full of examples of abominations that went unrecognized. Too many to list, but just a few of the obvious ones should do. Golden Calf incident was a great abomination. Eli's sons did some horrible things with no apparent recognition from the people. All the book of Judges are filled with abominations done by Israel: human sacrifice, homosexuality and some of the weirdest stuff you can imagine, while everyone did what was right in their own eyes. Northern Kingdom set up golden images, and thought nothing about its idolatry. Solomon became a huge idolater, and so did the majority of the kings of Israel, with no recognition by anyone but the prophets (who were often silenced).

If the Jews could recognize what an abomination is, the Lord would not speak things such as they have eyes but can't see and ears but don't hear.

They did not recognize the Lord of Glory, how could they ever recognize any further abominations, without the Lord Himself opening their eyes?

What the OT is full of is irreverent here, Yeshua's Prophecy in Matthew 24 is of a clearly recognized Abomination.

[DurbanDude]

The Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, not symbolic of anything.

I gave biblical backing with symbolic precedence in the same book of Revelation regarding the candlesticks for my view, can you give me your backing please? If you do have backing, this would mean we both have alternative views which would not disprove my view either.

The 3 and a Half days could just be another example of the Author trying to find different ways to say 3 and a half years

The bodies will lie there for 3.5 years? I suppose its possible. But I doubt the methodology would suddenly change to 1 day = 1 year when all the other times, 1 day = 1 day.

We will have to just disagree on this.

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

Biblical Symbols don't always mean the same thing everywhere, that imagery with the Witnesses has an Old Testament basis.

Elijah's return still hasn't happen, though some want to believe that was achieved in John The Baptist against John's own Testimony.

"It is appointed unto each man once to die and after that the Judgment" Mean Enoch and Elijah must both return to Die.

[DurbanDude]

Ussher agreed that the John 2 Cleansing dates itself to 30 AD, and sources his argument well. But he unfortunately placed the Crucifixion in 33 AD.

Ok but then Ussher would be wrong, because a 30AD date for the cleansing of John 2 would place the building of the temple at about 17BC whereas general historical consensus is that the building commenced at 19/20BC, not as recent as 17BC. We will have to agree to disagree here , I see Jesus' ministry as 3.5 years long, based on John 2 being the 46th year of the rebuilding in March/April 27AD and also based on a 30AD crucifixion.

The day year comment was just one way to address your argument about the witnesses, there are many sense sin which the Kingdoms of the World become Yeshua's.

The bible can be interpreted in many ways. I feel that the most obvious interpretation is generally the best, God not being in the habit of deliberate confusion. To me the reference to the kingdoms belonging to Jesus is a clear reference to the second coming, and is not cryptic in any way. We will have to agree to disagree here.

In my opinion the fact that Israel is in the Wildness during the 2nd half means the Wintess must be the first half. Their Ministry is to Israel, and is linked to John's vision of the Temple at a time when the traditional worship is being kept (Thus before the Abomination) and only the Outer Court (Where the Dome of the Rock and the other Mosque are) is given to the Gentiles.

When I read Rev 12 BOTH 3.5 periods seem to be the same period, because they both are a period of protection for Israel.
Israel is in the wilderness, Israel settles, then Israel is protected. Those are the 3 stages of Israel since 70AD.

[divaD]

For 7 years Jesus is bringing salvation to the Jews. This is seperate to Jesus' eternal promises.
A Preterist view: for the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry and the 3.5 years following the crucifixion Jesus was bringing salvation exclusively to the Jews. (this does have some logic to it, but with unconfirmed dates and theologically doubtful)
My view: for the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry and the future 3.5 year period of protection for Israel as per Rev 12, Jesus brings salvation to the Jews. (obviously debatable - involves a gap in the 490 year period)

Assuming either of these are probable, let me start by asking a few things.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days


Are these speaking of the same event? If no. why not? If so, then why would Jesus' one time sacrifice be said to be a daily sacrifice instead? Or is this meaning that Jesus's one time sacrifice ended the daily sacrifice? Even if one of these are probable, it would be in the midst of the 70th week that the abomination that maketh desolate is set up. If Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week, and then the passage states...there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days, how can part of that 70th week be past, while the remainder of it is future? It seems to me that this thousand two hundred and ninety days begins it's countdown once the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up.

Keep in mind, since I myself don't have a stance on this, I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, I'm basically trying to understand things by asking these type of questions. I've always been one who believes that ones conclusions need to match the text. I know enough about you now, where I feel the same applies to you as well, where you probably feel the same way.

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

Modern Historical consensus is often wrong. Including on Herod's Death.

How can then 3.5 years described in the first versed of Revelation 11 by the 2nd half? Durring the 2nd Half the Gentiles control the whole Temple, not just the Outer Court. It is this state fo the Temple the Witness are directly linked to.

[DurbanDude]

Assuming either of these are probable, let me start by asking a few things.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days


Are these speaking of the same event? If no. why not? If so, then why would Jesus' one time sacrifice be said to be a daily sacrifice instead? Or is this meaning that Jesus's one time sacrifice ended the daily sacrifice? .

I believe they are speaking of the same event. It does mean that Jesus one time sacrifice ended the daily sacrifice. Jesus was the last ACCEPTABLE sacrifice to God in this age. Thus his crucifixion ended all other sacrifices for sin, they became meaningless.

Even if one of these are probable, it would be in the midst of the 70th week that the abomination that maketh desolate is set up. If Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week, and then the passage states...there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days, how can part of that 70th week be past, while the remainder of it is future? It seems to me that this thousand two hundred and ninety days begins it's countdown once the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up.

I have a unique view on Dan 12 (don't I always ?) , the word time there we would normally associate with the MOMENT of the daily sacrifice, yet can also mean the PERIOD.
ie From the special Gentile period, starting when the daily sacrifice is taken away at the crucifixion and ending when the abomination is set up, there will be 1290 Jewish days until the end of this age:
12:11 And from the time (period) that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Thus we have 486.5 Jewish years until the crucifixion, then the inbetween time , then the abomination , then 1290 Jewish days until the end.

Keep in mind, since I myself don't have a stance on this, I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, I'm basically trying to understand things by asking these type of questions. I've always been one who believes that ones conclusions need to match the text. I know enough about you now, where I feel the same applies to you as well, where you probably feel the same way

Yes , I appreciate your probing mind. Your accurate probing also tests my view against the bible, which I like.

[DurbanDude]

Modern Historical consensus is often wrong. Including on Herod's Death.

How can then 3.5 years described in the first versed of Revelation 11 by the 2nd half? Durring the 2nd Half the Gentiles control the whole Temple, not just the Outer Court. It is this state fo the Temple the Witness are directly linked to.

I don't know why you say that the second half the Gentiles control the whole temple, from which verse?

The period of the trampling by the Gentiles, I believe is the same as the period of the two witnesses. The verses however are not clear enough to conclude, and so I can see how you could see two consecutive periods rather than two simultaneous periods from the following verse:
11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

This trampling of Jerusalem is referred to in Luke 21:24 which appears to associate the trampling with the period right up until the second coming, and so I prefer to associate the trampling with the last 3.5 years.

[Luciano Vinci]

LOL, I like your thinking. Well the bible does devote a large portion to the end-times. Maybe we should be devoting the same % to understanding the end-times. Its said that approximately 20% of the bible is prophecy. Maybe 10% of the NT is devoted to the end-times, so understanding the end-times is significant on God's agenda.

That's why I am reading this thread, I want to know more about endtime events, however, it just seems silly to speculate on things that don't make much difference in the whole picture. I mean, does it matter if the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah (as stated by another post), or does it make that much of difference if it was just two regular guys who hear and obey God's voice at that time?

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

The "Abomination of Desolation" refers to The Holy of Holies of the Temple. And when Israel is gone from Jerusalem all together to hide in the Wilderness obviously they don't control The Temple.

Luke refers to a Broader Trampling, one the begins in 70 AD and is ended when the Millennial reign starts. Revelation 11 outlines a scenario that clearly has the Normal Temple worship going on inside the Temple it's the Outer-court and the rest of the City under Gentile control. When the Abomination is set up "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" That can't fit what's implied by Revelation 11.

I think this scenario is the product of the "Covenant with the many" I do not agree for many valid Archeological reasons with the official view that the Dome of the Rock is right where the Temple was. I believe it's fully possible for The Temple to be reconstructed with both the Dome and that other mosque remaining in tact.