7 Year Tribulation Challenged

[DurbanDude]

That's why I am reading this thread, I want to know more about endtime events, however, it just seems silly to speculate on things that don't make much difference in the whole picture. I mean, does it matter if the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah (as stated by another post), or does it make that much of difference if it was just two regular guys who hear and obey God's voice at that time?

Well for me , I love solving mysteries. This is part of the reason for my fascination with the end-times. So for me personally its about 30% ministry and about 70% hobby, something I love to do.

You are correct though because a lot of prophecy is revealed as it unfolds. ie When we see two of ....... in Jerusalem and these two are actually being noticed by the earth, it will be pretty obvious who they are for us Christians who have read Rev 11. Therefore you could be right, we don't need to know now but it will give us extra faith and confirmation when we recognise it when it does unfold. I prefer to know in advance though, like Daniel knew beforehand by reading the scriptures that the Babylonian exile was only 70 years long. You could call this useless information, he just should have rested and trusted God that all will unfold in its correct timing. It would have happened anyway. But for Daniel who was desperately looking for hope for his people, it was important to know. For me its an attempt to reveal a neatly fitting puzzle somewhere between the preterist and futurist positions in order for us all to go into the tribulation aware of just about everything that is about to occur. No unpleasant surprises that could damage our faith.

[Luciano Vinci]

Well for me , I love solving mysteries. This is part of the reason for my fascination with the end-times. So for me personally its about 30% ministry and about 70% hobby, something I love to do.

You are correct though because a lot of prophecy is revealed as it unfolds. ie When we see two of ....... in Jerusalem and these two are actually being noticed by the earth, it will be pretty obvious who they are for us Christians who have read Rev 11. Therefore you could be right, we don't need to know now but it will give us extra faith and confirmation when we recognise it when it does unfold. I prefer to know in advance though, like Daniel knew beforehand by reading the scriptures that the Babylonian exile was only 70 years long. You could call this useless information, he just should have rested and trusted God that all will unfold in its correct timing. It would have happened anyway. But for Daniel who was desperately looking for hope for his people, it was important to know. For me its an attempt to reveal a neatly fitting puzzle somewhere between the preterist and futurist positions in order for us all to go into the tribulation aware of just about everything that is about to occur. No unpleasant surprises that could damage our faith.

I don't think tribulation or persecution will be a surprise. Jesus foretold that on many occasions. I think where the saints will need strength is in enduring those hard times. I don't know if knowing whats ahead is of any comfort or reassurance that we won't succumb to the extremities of the pressure. For instance, I would rather the dentist not tell me how much pain he is about to inflict on me, only that it will not be pleasant.

[DurbanDude]

I don't think tribulation or persecution will be a surprise. Jesus foretold that on many occasions. I think where the saints will need strength is in enduring those hard times. I don't know if knowing whats ahead is of any comfort or reassurance that we won't succumb to the extremities of the pressure. For instance, I would rather the dentist not tell me how much pain he is about to inflict on me, only that it will not be pleasant.

Here's where I disagree with you. If you are a pre-trib saint, and suddenly you are caught up in dark times, with busloads and truckloads of Christians taken for the slaughter like in the holocaust, this will be a shock. The pre-tribs are expecting a rapture to protect them from those times. If the disappearance of many to start this large scale persecution is sudden, some christians may feel they have missed the rapture! How discouraging for them! And if the preterists believe everything has been fulfilled, we are just waiting for the second coming, they too will be shocked. If the post-tribbers that believe in a 7 year trib are still waiting for some covenant to be fulfilled, they may misunderstand the abomination when it comes first. Worst still are those preterists who tend towards the "kingdom now" theology. They may end up thinking that "Christianity"'s dominance over earth is a good thing when it happens, even though its gonna be a bad institutionalised religion. There are many reasons to understand this all correctly.

You are right , it wont be a surprise. This is because by the time we get to the end, the end-times will have been taught correctly, unlike now.

[quiet dove]

Here's where I disagree with you. If you are a pre-trib saint, and suddenly you are caught up in dark times, with busloads and truckloads of Christians taken for the slaughter like in the holocaust, this will be a shock. The pre-tribs are expecting a rapture to protect them from those times. If the disappearance of many to start this large scale persecution is sudden, some christians may feel they have missed the rapture! How discouraging for them! And if the preterists believe everything has been fulfilled, we are just waiting for the second coming, they too will be shocked. If the post-tribbers that believe in a 7 year trib are still waiting for some covenant to be fulfilled, they may misunderstand the abomination when it comes first. Worst still are those preterists who tend towards the "kingdom now" theology. They may end up thinking that "Christianity"'s dominance over earth is a good thing when it happens, even though its gonna be a bad institutionalised religion. There are many reasons to understand this all correctly.

You guys just don't get accurate pre trib at all.

No, pre trib does not teach that Christians will not suffer persecution, not solid teachers. What they teach is that Christians will not endure the wrath of God. Two different things....persecution .....wrath of God, two different things.

Please consider that there is persecution, and there is the wrath of God upon the unrighteous. Both can be called tribulation because as defined, tribulation is whatever causes distress.

As a pre tribber, and as many other pre tribbers, having had my nose stuck in end times stuff for many years, I/we are fully aware that persecution is present day for many, and as each day goes by it grows closer to home. This is obvious with all that is going on, and the changes taking place regarding spiritual beliefs.....beliefs even amongst those professing Jesus Christ. I mean, surveys are showing that even many professing to be Christians believe there are many ways to God, thus taking Jesus right out of the picture.

Solid pretrib is very able to discern the spiritual situation of our present time and very aware of what that means when it comes to persecution. No one knows how long we will be here or what will be the situation. We(Believers) have enemies on every side, physically and spiritually speaking... regardless of our end time view.

Anyone claiming the name of Jesus as the only means to God, is going to see problems, and have problems, even with-in the ranks of those professing Christianity.

[DurbanDude]

You guys just don't get accurate pre trib at all.

No, pre trib does not teach that Christians will not suffer persecution, not solid teachers. What they teach is that Christians will not endure the wrath of God. Two different things....persecution .....wrath of God, two different things.

Please consider that there is persecution, and there is the wrath of God upon the unrighteous. Both can be called tribulation because as defined, tribulation is whatever causes distress.

As a pre tribber, and as many other pre tribbers, having had my nose stuck in end times stuff for many years, I/we are fully aware that persecution is present day for many, and as each day goes by it grows closer to home. This is obvious with all that is going on, and the changes taking place regarding spiritual beliefs.....beliefs even amongst those professing Jesus Christ. I mean, surveys are showing that even many professing to be Christians believe there are many ways to God, thus taking Jesus right out of the picture.

Solid pretrib is very able to discern the spiritual situation of our present time and very aware of what that means when it comes to persecution. No one knows how long we will be here or what will be the situation. We(Believers) have enemies on every side, physically and spiritually speaking... regardless of our end time view.

Anyone claiming the name of Jesus as the only means to God, is going to see problems, and have problems, even with-in the ranks of those professing Christianity.

I honestly don't think I misunderstood anything of the pre-trib view. I understand that you are saying that pre-tribs are just as ready and expectant of persecutions.

What pre-tribs are not prepared for, is to find themselves in the middle of the period when the antichrist rules, and still around here on earth. Especially if a lot of your friends have LITERALLY disappeared. What I am saying is pre-tribs are not ready for a post-trib scenario, and if find themselves in it, may just feel they have missed the rapture if a lot of their friends have literally disappeared. This would be intensely discouraging, to feel you were not good enough for the rapture.

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

Believers are protected form the Wrath of God, doesn't necessarily mean there are non on the Earth at that time. The thing to many of my follow non Pre-Tribbers fail recognize is the Uniqueness of The Church, not all belivers are part of The Church, the Church is form Pentecost to the "Rapture" whenever you view the Rapture to happen.

The Wrath of God only strictly speaking refers to the last half to he Tribulation, and the Bowls of God's Wrath. And that's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards a Mid-Trib view.

[quiet dove]

Believers are protected form the Wrath of God, doesn't necessarily mean there are non on the Earth at that time. The thing to many of my follow non Pre-Tribbers fail recognize is the Uniqueness of The Church, not all belivers are part of The Church, the Church is form Pentecost to the "Rapture" whenever you view the Rapture to happen. The Wrath of God only strictly speaking refers to the last half to he Tribulation, and the Bowls of God's Wrath. And that's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards a Mid-Trib view.

While I disagree that the wrath of God is only for the last half of the GT, that is another matter. But regardless of it's length, and regardless about pre trib believing that believers will be raptured prior to the GT. Most solid pre trib teachers, can't say all pre trib teachers because I certainly don't know who they are or what they say...but the bulk of pre trib is very concerned about the times ahead, just as other views are.

Pre trib teachers have been warning for years that just the times we see now were coming, it is not all taking them by surprise. And they continue to warn unbelievers of their need to place their faith in Christ, and they continue to warn believers to get their act together, get ready, be prepared. I know there are some out there that say differently, but I am talking about solid, established, standing on solid ground teachers. Not date predictors and other wise off the balance promoters of whatever they thought up last night about it all.

Pre tribbers are indeed seeing the times and that they are bad. And they are fully aware that the longer the Lord tarries the worse it will be here for believers. They are not stupid thinking life is a bowl of cherries until the rapture. They can read, and they are fully aware that their brothers and sisters across the globe are being tortured and killed every day for the name of Christ. And they are not so stupid or blind as to think that they are some how immune.

But I do understand your leaning toward pre trib. I disagree, but I understand where you are getting it from. The reason I disagree would go back to the four horsemen, and the white horse, the very beginning, imho, of the revealing of the AC. And then in harmony with Thessalonians and that the Restrainer is removed prior to the revealing of this son-of-perdition. The son-of-perdition being the rider of the white horse. I believe all the seals are the wrath of God, and the Lamb then being the only One worthy to open those seals. God the Son the One with the right to open them because He is the One who paid for it all and all was given to Him.

We are seeing changes rapidly, very rapidly. I disagree with the process of trying to determine what will happen next in detail because as recent history shows us, anything could happen when it comes to countries and politics. But the adjustments are happening not only in our physical world, but the spiritual, and of course the spiritual effects the physical/natural. And the natural is gobbling up the spiritual deception that is infecting every area of life.

I stumbled across an article earlier entitled I Thought I Saw It Coming by Jack Kinsella...I am not real familiar with this name and don't normally link articles because I have no real intention of debating them..... Here is the first paragraph, the article is not pre trib geared so much as end times geared.

P.S. The formatting messed up but I tried to fix it..

It is incredible, yet true. We are witnessing the unfolding of events long prophesied to take place during the last generation before the return of Christ. We knew that it was coming – we were almost eager to see this day because it means the Rapture is that much closer. But as the day approaches, it becomes less an abstract notion and more a crushingly painful reality. It has made that transition from theoretical possibility to actual fact. We always knew, in theory that, one day Christians would be marginalized to the point of insignificance. We always knew that one day, some new religion having two horns like a lamb but speaking as a dragon would overspread Planet Earth. For decades we’ve made a guessing game out of what it would look like and who would be its leader. As we see the hard-and-fast answers crowding out our best guesses, the game isn’t as much fun as it used to be. In fact, it isn’t any fun at all, any more. This IS what we’ve been expecting. It is what the Bible forecast for the last days. Jesus said the Tribulation Period would be a time so terrible that if He didn’t return to put a stop to it, there would be no flesh saved out of it. So it is entirely reasonable to expect that the period leading up to it would be, ah, unpleasant, to say the least. Jesus prophesied that the time will come when those who kill you will think they do God service.

[Luciano Vinci]

Here's where I disagree with you. If you are a pre-trib saint, and suddenly you are caught up in dark times, with busloads and truckloads of Christians taken for the slaughter like in the holocaust, this will be a shock. The pre-tribs are expecting a rapture to protect them from those times. If the disappearance of many to start this large scale persecution is sudden, some christians may feel they have missed the rapture! How discouraging for them! And if the preterists believe everything has been fulfilled, we are just waiting for the second coming, they too will be shocked. If the post-tribbers that believe in a 7 year trib are still waiting for some covenant to be fulfilled, they may misunderstand the abomination when it comes first. Worst still are those preterists who tend towards the "kingdom now" theology. They may end up thinking that "Christianity"'s dominance over earth is a good thing when it happens, even though its gonna be a bad institutionalised religion. There are many reasons to understand this all correctly.

You are right , it wont be a surprise. This is because by the time we get to the end, the end-times will have been taught correctly, unlike now.

Like I have stated previously, I don't really know what camp I fall into since I am preterist on some things, futurists on others. I am an historical pre-millinialist on alot of stuff, amillinialist on more stuff, and post-millinialist on very few things.

I have been accused of being kingdom now because I don't believe in an any minute rapture. I don't see Jesus coming back twice, only once for all from how I read the Word.

I have been told that I believe in replacement theology because i believe what Eph. 2 says about God placing both Jew and Greek in one body by the cross. I believe there is only one Seed of Abraham and not two (Jesus only - Gal. 3:16).

So the problem with most eschatology, IMHO, is that most speak as if there are Two New Covenants (one for Christians and a separate plan for Jews); two Israels (one spiritual and one natural); two temples (spiritual and natural), when all I can see is one Israel, One Body, One Temple, One Lord, One Faith, Baptism, etc.

In other words, does God show favoritism with one race over another? (Rom. 2:11; Acts 10:34)

[Cyberseeker]

I have been told that I believe in replacement theology because i believe what Eph. 2 says about God placing both Jew and Greek in one body by the cross. I believe there is only one Seed of Abraham and not two (Jesus only - Gal. 3:16).

'Replacement theology' is what someone calls you if they want to take a poke atcha. You are 'Covenant Theology.'

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

Even the term "Great Tribulation" is properly used only of the last half of the 7 years.

Pre-Tribbers haven't been the only ones seeing the signs of the times. Actually the basic Pre-Trib logic is undermined every-time and prophecy is fulfilled and the Rapture hasn't happened yet.

[DurbanDude]

Believers are protected form the Wrath of God, doesn't necessarily mean there are non on the Earth at that time. The thing to many of my follow non Pre-Tribbers fail recognize is the Uniqueness of The Church, not all belivers are part of The Church, the Church is form Pentecost to the "Rapture" whenever you view the Rapture to happen.

The Wrath of God only strictly speaking refers to the last half to he Tribulation, and the Bowls of God's Wrath. And that's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards a Mid-Trib view.

ok I associate the wrath with the last few days of the trib and so I see the pre-wrath view as nearly identical to the post-trib view.

[DurbanDude]

I have been told that I believe in replacement theology because i believe what Eph. 2 says about God placing both Jew and Greek in one body by the cross. I believe there is only one Seed of Abraham and not two (Jesus only - Gal. 3:16).

Most who believe in a special destiny for Israel, also believe the church, both Jew and Gentile, is one body

So the problem with most eschatology, IMHO, is that most speak as if there are Two New Covenants (one for Christians and a separate plan for Jews); two Israels (one spiritual and one natural); two temples (spiritual and natural), when all I can see is one Israel, One Body, One Temple, One Lord, One Faith, Baptism, etc.

In other words, does God show favoritism with one race over another? (Rom. 2:11; Acts 10:34

The main difference is that God's relationship with Israel is recorded, unlike God's relationship with other nations, which exists but is not recorded.

The other difference is that they have had more responsibility and therefore more accountability than other nations. God chose to have his temple among them, God chose to send the Messiah through them. Is this favoritism? It could be regarded as that. The randomness of this favoritism, coming through Jacob/Israel the deceiver is a demonstration of God's grace and not through any inherent goodness in their own right.

Prophetically the bible continues to predict further interactions with Israel. The Messiah will come to Mount Zion. He will intervene in a war in Israel - Armageddon. The 144000 are from the twelve tribes. The future heavenly city has the same name as the Jewish city. The "woman" (Israel) of Rev 12 is especially protected while the church isn't protected.

Romans 11 definitely differentiates between Gentile and Jewish Christians, showing that the hardness of Jews towards the gospel will be lifted:
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

Romans continues to differentiate between the two groups, saying Jewish Christians are the natural branches of the olive tree, Gentile christians are the wild branches grafted in to the olive tree, and Jewish non-christians are the natural branches broken off the olive tree. The net result and destiny of the two groups of believers is the same, but there is an implied difference in timing when referring to v25 because this seems to indicate a period for the Gentiles, followed by a Jewish period of openness to the gospel.

As always , anyone can read whatever they like into the bible, I am referring to what is most obvious if you are honest with yourself on what the text means.

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

Jew or Gentile doesn't matter to Salvation. But Israel and the Church are separate covenants, not all Saved are part of either, and some are part of both.

[quiet dove]

Even the term "Great Tribulation" is properly used only of the last half of the 7 years.

Pre-Tribbers haven't been the only ones seeing the signs of the times. Actually the basic Pre-Trib logic is undermined every-time and prophecy is fulfilled and the Rapture hasn't happened yet.

That depends on the accuracy when determining if a prophecy has been fulfilled. If none of the prophesies have been fulfilled yet in regards to Revelation, then pre trib has not been undermined or proven faulty. Pre trib will not be proven faulty until the AC has indeed been revealed and we are all still here.

[DurbanDude]

That depends on the accuracy when determining if a prophecy has been fulfilled. If none of the prophesies have been fulfilled yet in regards to Revelation, then pre trib has not been undermined or proven faulty. Pre trib will not be proven faulty until the AC has indeed been revealed and we are all still here.

Do you think most pre-tribs are aware of the post-trib position? That's mainly what I'm concerned about, because if there is a general awareness of the alternatives, this makes it easier for pre-tribbers to adjust if pre-trib is proven faulty. It just a matter of moving the goalpost a few years.