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Thread: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

  1. #181
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Lion loses his eagle wings Daniel 7: 4. that begins the time of the end to the Son of man being given the kingdom verses 13 – 14 whereupon the Saints posses the everlasting kingdom in verses 18, 22, 26 – 27. Verse 28. Hitherto is the end of the matter.
    Capitals used for emphasis only.
    Parallels and patterns.

    Daniel and Revelation are together in this.

    Daniel 7: 7. “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”

    Daniel 7: 8. “I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”

    The little horn, speaks and Heaven reacts when the Ancient of days sets the judgment.

    Daniel 7: 9. “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.”

    Daniel 7: 10. “A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the JUDGMENT WAS SET, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED.”

    We have the same event with more detail in Revelation 4.

    Revelation 4: 1. “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

    Revelation 4: 2. “And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

    Revelation 4: 3. “And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.”

    Revelation 4: 4. “And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.”

    Revelation 4: 5. “And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”

    Revelation 4: 6. “And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.” 7. “And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”

    Revelation 4: 8. “And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.” 9. “And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,” 10. “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”
    Revelation 4: 11. “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”

    Revelation 5: 1. “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne A BOOK written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.”

    Revelation 5: 2. “And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, WHO IS WORTHY TO OPEN THE BOOK, and to loose the seals thereof?”

    Revelation 5: 3. “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

    Revelation 5: 4. “And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.”

    Revelation 5: 5. “And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDA, the ROOT OF DAVID, HATH PREVAILED TO OPEN THE BOOK, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

    Revelation 5: 6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Revelation 5: 7. “And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
    Revelation 5: 8. “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before THE LAMB, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.”

    Revelation 5: 9. “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”

    Revelation 5: 10. “And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.”

    Lets go back to Daniel.

    Daniel 7: 11. “I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.”

    Daniel 7: 12. “As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time”

    The beast will be killed and the lion, bear, leopard remnant leaders and those that followed the beast and Satan will be killed by the sword, but first the wedding supper.

    Daniel 7: 13. “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.”

    In Revelation 19: 1 to 10. we have our LORD Jesus, with the redeemed.

    Revelation 19: 1. “And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:”
    Revelation 19: 2. “For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.”

    The above woman in verse 2. can be recognised by reading Ezekiel 16: 1 – 63.

    Revelation 19: 3. “And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.”

    Revelation 19: 4. “And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.”

    Revelation 19: 5. “And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.”

    Revelation 19: 6.”And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.”

    Daniel 7: 14. “And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

    It is in Revelation 19: “where the beast is killed then the lion, bear leopard beasts and their followers are to be killed by the sword.”

    Revelation 19: 20. “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”

    Revelation 19: 21. “And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

    There is much more detail in Daniel leading up to the resurrection that needs our attention also Revelation, concerning the tribulation period, the millennium and the demise of Satan. Then we will see a new earth and new heaven

    Daniel 7: 17. “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.”
    Daniel 7: 18. “But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.”

  2. #182
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    Daniel 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    Time span of the vision.

    ------------------------------------2300 days ------------------------------------ Resurrection.

    Daniel 8: 16. “And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.”
    Daniel 8: 17. “So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.”

    Time of the end.

    ------------------------------------2300 days -------------------------------------- Resurrection.

    Daniel 12: 11. “And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.”

    The abomination of desolation set up is for 1290 days, which begins 1010 days through the time of the end’s 2300 days. IMHO.

    -----------------------------1010 -----------------------------------------1290 Resurrection.
    Revelation 11: 3. “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED and THREESCORE DAYS, clothed in sackcloth.”

    Revelation 11: 7. “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the BEAST ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL THEM.”

    Revelation 11: 15. “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Revelation 11: 16. “And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

    Revelation 11: 1 – 15. At 1036½ days, Two Prophets will witness for 1260 days are then killed by the BEAST lay dead 3½ days in Jerusalem, then raised at the last trump of God. IMHO.

    ------------------------------1036½ ------------------------------------------1260 + 3½ Resurrection.

    Revelation 11: 1. “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and MEASURE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and the altar, and them that worship therein.”

    There is a Temple of God, standing at the same time.

    Revelation 11: 2. “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”

    The Divided kingdom at the time of the feet of iron and clay is of a 42 months time span, say around 1278 days. IMHO.

    --------------------------1022 ----------------------------------------1278 Resurrection.


    Daniel 12:12. BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    The blessing received 1335 days later.


    Revelation 19: 6. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    Revelation 19: 9. And he saith unto me, Write, BLESSED are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    -------------------------------965 -----------------------------------------1335 Resurrection.


    Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Matthew 24: 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Daniel 12: 11. And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    There will be 1290 days, then the LORD will return.

    Matthew 24: 29. “IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

    Matthew 24: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Matthew 24: 31. “And he shall send his angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

  3. #183
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Is there anyone that would like me to continue on into the book of Daniel?

  4. #184

    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Good post PC .... much truth presented in the scriptures that you have given .... continue

    .... a picture of the coming 70th week still pending [1260 days + 1260 days + an additional 30 days]

    The 2300 mornings and evenings [scheduled worship] are 1130 24 hour days and these days will run their course during the second 1260 days

    ... from when the setting of the abomination of desolation is complete [it will take 110 days to complete this setting] to the end of the 70th week [2520 days]

    Then the Lord will turn on the beast and his followers and destroy their kingdom in the next 30 days culminating at the end of the battle of Armageddon

  5. #185
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Many thanks Buddy, will do.
    Sorry about the delay in replying but my computer was hit by a lightening power surge.
    They had to replace the drive and mother board and now I have a much faster PC

  6. #186
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Daniel 9:1. “In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;” Unquote.

    Daniel knew of his time. He was a young man when taken into captivity by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar and may have been at the age of 85 by the time Nebuchadnezzar’s son, Belshazzar came to the end of his Babylonian reign.
    Daniel was well aware that the 70 years time span of his people’s captivity, mentioned by the books of Jeremiah was almost completed.

    There was around a seventy-year span, of captivity concerning the children of Israel.
    What brought that about was the fault of Israel.
    Israel, became unworthy to be a chosen people and were cut off from the Holy land and spent around 70 years in captivity.

    The Prophet Daniel had been reading about this from the writings of another Prophet called Jeremiah and had made some cogent conclusions.
    He knew the times and of the prophetic events pertaining, at the early beginnings of the Silver chest, shoulders, arms of the Medo/Persian Empire, concerning his peoples’ release.
    He was very much aware, that he was living at that end of the seventy years of captivity, and that Israel was due for release, according to the book of Jeremiah.
    He understood that if he were to offer supplications to God, that God would listen to him and think kindly of Israel, Daniel, his people, would be released, according to the word of God, through the Prophet Jeremiah.


    Daniel, chapter, 9: verse, 2. “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.” Unquote.


    Jeremiah, chapter, 25: verse 1. “The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadezzar king of Babylon;”

    Verse, 2. “The which Jeremiah the prophet spake unto all the people of Judah, and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying,”

    Verse, 3. “From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, even unto this day, that is the three and twentieth year, the word of the LORD hath come unto me, and I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye have not hearkened.”

    Verse, 4. “And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.”

    Verse, 5. “They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:”

    Verse, 6. “And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.”

    Verse, 7. “Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

    Verse, 8. “Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,

    Verse, 9. “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.”

    Verse, 10. “Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.”

    Verse, 11. “And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

    Verse, 12. “And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.”

    Jeremiah, chapter 29: verse, 10. “For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.”

    Verse, 11. “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.”

    Verse, 12. “Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.”

    Verse, 13. “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

    Verse, 14. “And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.” Unquote.

    The 70 years captivity, spoken of by Jeremiah was about up. ‘I Daniel understood by the books’ Babylon’s grip on Israel suddenly ended when Cyrus arrived.
    The 70, year captivity has nothing to do with ‘the time of the end,’ ‘evening, morning, vision,’ because it was Gabriel, that set the time the vision earlier in Daniel chapter 8.


    Daniel 8: 17. “So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.” Unquote.

    Daniel, responded appropriately for his peoples release, according to the books of Jeremiah, that would propel them from the head of gold to within the shoulders, arms and chest of silver’s time span.

    Daniel 9:15. “And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.”

    Daniel 9:16. “O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.” Unquote.

    Verse, 17. “Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord’s sake.”

    Verse, 18. “O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.”

    Verse, 19. “O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.”

    Verse, 20. “And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;” Unquote.

    The angel Gabriel, appeared and gently touched Daniel, as he was offering supplications for himself and his people, for their release.

    Verse, 21. “Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.” Unquote.

    Gabriel was sent to Daniel and Daniel saw Gabriel, in vision form. Gabriel, was there to give Daniel ‘understanding’ of the ‘evening, morning, vision.’ Therefore it is axiomatic, that whatever explanation follows, concerns the time of that vision, stipulated by the angel Gabriel as concerns ‘the time of the end.’ So Daniel 9: 21 to verse 27 as a consequence, is within that vision’s 2300 day time zone. A 42 months time span belongs within ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay portion mentioned in Revelation 13:5. Gabriel, remember told Daniel in chapter 8: verse 17. “Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.” unquote.

    I am repeating myself, and belaboring this point for those that mistakenly insist that the vision is concerned with events outside that biblically allocated time on the Metal Empire Times Span Statue i.e. such as dragging Jesus’ crucifixion, from the past ‘legs of iron’, Roman Empire period, into the, ’42. month,’ ‘feet of iron and Potter’s clay,’ period, belonging within the ‘divided kingdom,’ also called, ‘the 4th beast kingdom’ is bundled within the ‘23 hundred evening morning vision’ ‘concerning time of the end.’

    Daniel said previously that he did not understand the vision in Daniel 8: 27.
    Daniel 8: 26. “And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.”

  7. #187
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Daniel 8: 27. “And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it. Unquote.

    Gabriel’s reason for coming to see Daniel is made obvious by what he says, which is to help Daniel, consider the evening, morning, vision. That is the context, the biblical intent and achieves that eventual outcome in Daniel 10: 1.

    Daniel 9: 22. “And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.”

    The obvious question I ask, for the sake of biblical context is. Understanding to consider what?

    The answer is in the following verse, 23. “At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.”

    This is the same vision, that Daniel did not understand concerned with ‘the time of the end,’ within which the ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ fit on that Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel 2: 41 - 45.
    This is a further reflection, through the progression of Daniel’s vision from chapters seven and eight’s time zone, to which Daniel, chapter 9 is also concerned with. That is implied by Gabriel’s own words, in the last above quoted verse, 23. IMHO.

    Part quote
    “I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.” Unquote.

    None of the following verses, of chapter 9: has anything, whatsoever, to do with the Lord’s sacrifice, occurring much earlier, during the Roman Empire’s ‘legs of iron.’
    Again, I must emphasise, that, I believe that this is one very sound reason why God Himself, put that Metal Empire Time Span Statue there, in the mind of king Nebuchadnezzar, mentioned in Daniel, chapter, 2: verses, 1 to 49, to stop this unwise shifting of events from within their own metal time zone slot, into another, IMHO.


    ‘The evening morning vision’s’ time span was set by Gabriel, in Daniel, chapter, 8: verse, 17, to ‘the time of the end,’ within which belongs the divided kingdom’s very short 42 months duration, set at ‘the feet of iron and potter’s clay,’ being the last time span, on that Metal Empire Time Zone Statue Image of Daniel chapter, 2: verses, 41. to 45.

    The crucifixion was around 201 years into the ‘legs of iron’ time span of the Roman Empire’s duration of around 644 years from BC 168 to AD 476.


    The feet of iron and clay, on the statue are biblically allotted to the time zone when God, is to set up His everlasting kingdom as seen in the Overview of Daniel, chapter, 7: in verse, 14, where the Lord Jesus, is given back His’ kingdom and the Saints posses it, in verses, 17 – 18, 21 - 22. and 26 - 27.

    I am not changing anything here, I’m just reading and presenting the clear biblical evidence stated by the angel Gabriel himself, about the time of the vision.

    Now getting back to Daniel chapter 9 where we should ‘therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision’ stated in verse 23 firmly sets the time zone span.


    The explanation of the vision is now set from Jerusalem’s and Israel’s perspective, and what they are to achieve, during the last 70 weeks of the probationary period before Jerusalem, is trampled on, as is the case also, in Revelation 11: 2.

    Daniel 9: 24. “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.” Unquote.

    Some claim that ‘verse 24 was completed by the sacrifice of the Christ.’ I don’t agree for two clear biblical reasons already stated.
    Point 1. The crucifixion was around about 33 AD during the Roman Empire’s ‘legs of iron’s, time zone.
    Point 2. Daniel 9: is about the 23 hundred evening morning visions’ time zone being fixed at ‘the time of the end’ concerning the time of ‘the feet of iron and clay’ a 42 month time zone of a ‘kingdom divided.’

    The Lamb gave the means, by which the following could be achieved, but it is manifestly the responsibility of Jerusalem, Israel, to accomplish the following. They are to.

    1. ‘finish the transgression.’
    2. ‘make an end of sins.’
    3. ‘make reconciliation for iniquity.’
    4. ‘bring in everlasting righteousness.’
    5. ‘seal up the vision and prophecy.’
    6. ‘anoint the most Holy
    .’

    A full seventy weeks, where true Israel and Jerusalem will have to accomplish the above and stick with it up until the ‘Messiah, the Prince’ returns in great glory.

    I saw the wall being built around Jerusalem in the news quite a while back, but it will be destroyed. The command to restore it and rebuild Jerusalem, is interesting, now that we know that chapter 9 concerns the evening, morning, vision, therefore the time of it. Also, next to ‘the street’ is where the Wailing Wall stands where some of the original stones are still piled one upon another on the Mount of Olives.


    Daniel, chapter 9: verse, 25. “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”

    Let’s see, in verse, 25. That’s a decree to rebuild Jerusalem then there will be 62 weeks plus 7 weeks equals 69 weeks, however there are seventy weeks of probation in all of this, then (Dan 12:12) the tribulation of 1335 days begins, then 45 days later the 1290 days of the abomination of desolation set up begins(Dan 12:11) both periods end at the second advent of the Lamb.


    There was a decree, signed by Cyrus, to rebuild Jerusalem, at the beginning of the Medo Persian Empire, represented as at the ‘silver chest, shoulders, and arms,’ on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue image of Daniel chapter 2.
    According to verses 43 – 45, we should be reading verse 25, as concerning the vision’s twenty three hundred, ereb/evening, boqer/morning, time zone concerning ‘the time of the end,’ within that time span exists the time of 42. months, represented as at the ‘feet of iron and Potters clay,’ period during the reign of the 4th beast’s ‘kingdom divided’ according to the angel Gabriel.


    Daniel, chapter, 9. Verse, 26. is part of the explanation allowing Daniel, to consider the 2300 evening, morning, vision is it not? The following verse is alluding to the destruction of the city, Jerusalem and the Sanctuary, which will bring in the end, which will become very clear, when we get to chapter 11. Gabriel, was told, in these reminder verses, to make Daniel, understand the vision. So Gabriel, started to do just that after Daniel 8: 16. “And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.” Unquote.

    The precise time of the vision, was essential, for Daniel’s understanding of it and therefore, as a consequence, our understanding of the ‘Evening Morning Vision,’ also.
    The angel Gabriel, approached Daniel, and stood very close to him, to make sure that he didn’t miss that specific, time of the vision message. Even though it would scare Daniel, Gabriel was compelled to drive home that very point. Just like I do.


    Daniel 8: 17. “So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said to me, understand, o son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.”
    Again, the understanding of the vision’s time of factor was paramount and Daniel, knowing the time of it, was essential.
    Daniel, chapter, 9. verse, 23. “At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.”

    This following verse therefore, cannot contain any event, occurring, prior to ‘the time of the end period,’ of the vision, according to the word from the angel Gabriel. If some think it does, then they cannot be wise to the time of it, therefore cannot understand the vision. Now with that, time of the vision discipline in mind, we can read the following. After 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off as this prince destroys the city and sanctuary.
    Daniel 9: 26. “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

    Now let me try and detail verses 26 and 27 please remember the time zone is at ‘the feet of iron and clay’ and not at the time of the crucifixion of the Lamb of God.

    Strong’s 7857= flood or waters, means many peoples, Gentiles involved right up to the end of the war. That is whilst the Gentile nations trample on Jerusalem, mentioned in Revelation 11: 2 for 42 months during the Divided kingdom’s reign. That specific time span, as seen in Revelation 13:1 - 18.

    Bible backup for the meaning of waters, as peoples.

    Revelation 17: 15. “And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

    Hebrew terminology.
    A prince will turn up in Jerusalem and he will confirm or verify the covenant, or agreement for one week 7620 {shaw-boo’-ah}.

    Within the middle Midst 2677 {khay-tsee’} of that week 7620, he will cause the oblation 4503 {min-khaw} offering, present, gift,
    to cease 7673 {shaw-bath}
    for the overspreading 3671{ kaw-nawf’} to wing 74, skirt 14, the borders 2, corners 2, ends from 3670; TWOT - 1003a; n of abominations 8251 from 8262; TWOT - 2459b; n m
    8262 { shaw-kats’} “detestable things,” “abominable idols.” Objects greatly disliked or abhorred he shall make it
    desolate 8074 { shaw-mame’} to ‘waste,’ ‘destroy,’ until the consummation 3617
    { kaw-law’} ...end and that determined 2782
    { khaw-rats’} to move, decide, decree.
    Shall be poured upon the desolate 8074{ shaw-mame’} ‘astonished.’

    The timing.
    This prince is not the Messiah because the Messiah will turn up after the end of the 69 weeks on the day of the Lord, which is at the end or within the seventieth week being after the completion of the 69 weeks.

    This is just a glimpse of this prince, there is a vile person that is part of those of the abomination of desolation army, mob, in
    Daniel, chapter, 11: 21. “And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

    Verse, 31. “And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.” Unquote.

    Also found, in Daniel, chapter, 12: verse, 11, “And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Unquote.

    Matthew, chapter 24: verse, 15. “ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,” (whoso readeth, let him understand)

    Verse. 16. “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:”

    How many days from verse 15 to verses 29 – 31? The answer is 1290 days according to Daniel 12: 1.

    Matthew 24: 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Matthew 24: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Matthew 24: 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    To be continued

  8. #188
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Daniel 9:24-27 reads:

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Daniel 9:24-27.


    This seems very clear to me without inventing/impregnating the text with a 2000 year gap.


    Thomas Williamson writes:


    Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks is one of the most significant prophecies in the Bible, and one of the most misunderstood.

    In this prophecy, the Jews were given the approximate time of the coming of their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. For this reason, there was a great air of expectancy among the Jews 483 years after the order by the Persian king Artaxerxes for the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem in 445 BC (see Nehemiah 2:4-8).

    It is generally accepted that the weeks in Daniel 9:24 are weeks of years, or periods of 7 years. The coming of Christ after 483 years (69 times 7), thus fulfilling this prophecy, is one of the greatest proofs of the divine inspiration of the Bible.

    When Christ came, He told the people that "the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel," Mark 1:15. The time that had been fulfilled was the chronology that had been given by Daniel.

    MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Daniel 9:24 gives us specific prophecies that would be fulfilled by Christ by the end of the 70 weeks or 490 years. He would "finish the transgression," which was accomplished when Christ died on the cross, saying "It is finished," (John 19:30, see also Hebrews 9:15).

    He would "make an end of sins," which can be understood as making an end of the sacrifice for sins. Christ did this when He offered Himself for our sins once and forever on the cross, Hebrews 9:26, 10:12, thus taking away the sin of the world, John 1:29, 1 John 3:5.

    He would "make reconciliation for iniquity." Christ made reconciliation for the sins of the people on the Cross, Ephesians 2:16, Hebrews 2:17.

    He would "bring in everlasting righteousness." Christ has been made unto us righteousness, Romans 5:18, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Colossians 1:20.

    He would "seal up the vision and prophecy." We are told that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets, Matthew 5:17, Acts 3:18, Romans 3:21.

    The Most Holy would be anointed, and this was fulfilled when Christ was anointed to be our Savior, Luke 4:18, 21.

    In Daniel 9:26 we are told that Christ would be cut off, but not for Himself - He died for us. The next event after that on the prophetic calendar would be the arrival of the "prince that shall come" to destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.

    This was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus came, within one generation of the time of Christ, as predicted (Matthew 23:35-36, 24:34) and destroyed Jerusalem.

    In verse 27 we are told that Christ would confirm the covenant with many (not all) for one week (Daniel’s 70th week). We are told in Hebrews 12:24 that Christ was the mediator of the new covenant. In the middle of the week Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, when He died on the cross for our sins - at that moment when He was on the cross, the veil of the temple was torn in half (Matthew 27:51, see also Hebrews 10:18).

    This disruption of the temple sacrifices was a sign that Christ had opened for us the way into the heavenly sanctuary, so that the animal sacrifices in the Temple were no longer necessary. (Based on this reference to Messiah’s ministry culminating "in the midst of the week" it has been traditionally believed that His earthly ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years).

    Over the centuries, the great commentators have agreed that Christ is the One who confirmed the covenant with many (see Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, Adam Clarke, Jamieson Fausset and Brown, Edward Young, John Calvin, John Wesley, Geneva Study Bible, etc). The Church Fathers such as Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Athanasius, Augustine and Eusebius regarded the 70th week of Daniel as having already been fulfilled by Christ’s earthly ministry, as did the Venerable Bede, John Wycliffe, Luther, Melancthon, John Gill, etc.

    Take a close look at Daniel 9:24. This verse clearly describes Christ’s earthly ministry, and tells us that all these things, including His making reconciliation for iniquity by dying on the Cross, were to take place within the 70 week period. Therefore, all 70 weeks have already been fulfilled.

    To place the 70th week in the future is to deny that Christ made reconciliation for iniquity when He died on the Cross, which would strike at the very foundations of Christianity.

  9. #189
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    Daniel 9:24-27 reads:

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Daniel 9:24-27.


    This seems very clear to me without inventing/impregnating the text with a 2000 year gap.


    Thomas Williamson writes:


    Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks is one of the most significant prophecies in the Bible, and one of the most misunderstood.

    In this prophecy, the Jews were given the approximate time of the coming of their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. For this reason, there was a great air of expectancy among the Jews 483 years after the order by the Persian king Artaxerxes for the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem in 445 BC (see Nehemiah 2:4-8).

    It is generally accepted that the weeks in Daniel 9:24 are weeks of years, or periods of 7 years. The coming of Christ after 483 years (69 times 7), thus fulfilling this prophecy, is one of the greatest proofs of the divine inspiration of the Bible.

    When Christ came, He told the people that "the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel," Mark 1:15. The time that had been fulfilled was the chronology that had been given by Daniel.

    MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Daniel 9:24 gives us specific prophecies that would be fulfilled by Christ by the end of the 70 weeks or 490 years. He would "finish the transgression," which was accomplished when Christ died on the cross, saying "It is finished," (John 19:30, see also Hebrews 9:15).

    He would "make an end of sins," which can be understood as making an end of the sacrifice for sins. Christ did this when He offered Himself for our sins once and forever on the cross, Hebrews 9:26, 10:12, thus taking away the sin of the world, John 1:29, 1 John 3:5.

    He would "make reconciliation for iniquity." Christ made reconciliation for the sins of the people on the Cross, Ephesians 2:16, Hebrews 2:17.

    He would "bring in everlasting righteousness." Christ has been made unto us righteousness, Romans 5:18, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Colossians 1:20.

    He would "seal up the vision and prophecy." We are told that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets, Matthew 5:17, Acts 3:18, Romans 3:21.

    The Most Holy would be anointed, and this was fulfilled when Christ was anointed to be our Savior, Luke 4:18, 21.

    In Daniel 9:26 we are told that Christ would be cut off, but not for Himself - He died for us. The next event after that on the prophetic calendar would be the arrival of the "prince that shall come" to destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.

    This was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus came, within one generation of the time of Christ, as predicted (Matthew 23:35-36, 24:34) and destroyed Jerusalem.

    In verse 27 we are told that Christ would confirm the covenant with many (not all) for one week (Daniel’s 70th week). We are told in Hebrews 12:24 that Christ was the mediator of the new covenant. In the middle of the week Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, when He died on the cross for our sins - at that moment when He was on the cross, the veil of the temple was torn in half (Matthew 27:51, see also Hebrews 10:18).

    This disruption of the temple sacrifices was a sign that Christ had opened for us the way into the heavenly sanctuary, so that the animal sacrifices in the Temple were no longer necessary. (Based on this reference to Messiah’s ministry culminating "in the midst of the week" it has been traditionally believed that His earthly ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years).

    Over the centuries, the great commentators have agreed that Christ is the One who confirmed the covenant with many (see Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, Adam Clarke, Jamieson Fausset and Brown, Edward Young, John Calvin, John Wesley, Geneva Study Bible, etc). The Church Fathers such as Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Athanasius, Augustine and Eusebius regarded the 70th week of Daniel as having already been fulfilled by Christ’s earthly ministry, as did the Venerable Bede, John Wycliffe, Luther, Melancthon, John Gill, etc.

    Take a close look at Daniel 9:24. This verse clearly describes Christ’s earthly ministry, and tells us that all these things, including His making reconciliation for iniquity by dying on the Cross, were to take place within the 70 week period. Therefore, all 70 weeks have already been fulfilled.

    To place the 70th week in the future is to deny that Christ made reconciliation for iniquity when He died on the Cross, which would strike at the very foundations of Christianity.
    To me, this post says all that needs to be said. There's a lot of truth, information and wisdom in the above post. I would urge everyone to read it carefully and check out the info in it. This man has done his research.

    Great post and great info, Vanderhoven! Thank you.

    You see, friends, there will never be a need for any future sacrifice. Jesus is the only sacrifice that will EVER be acceptable and he put an end to the 'daily' shedding of blood and it all happened exactly as Daniel was told. How amazing...how wonderful...

    Christ Jesus fullfilled all of Daniel's prophecies. Each and every one, down to the exact number of weeks/years! Thank you, Lord Jesus!
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  10. #190
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    Daniel 9:24-27 reads:

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Daniel 9:24-27.


    This seems very clear to me without inventing/impregnating the text with a 2000 year gap.


    Thomas Williamson writes:


    Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks is one of the most significant prophecies in the Bible, and one of the most misunderstood.

    In this prophecy, the Jews were given the approximate time of the coming of their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. For this reason, there was a great air of expectancy among the Jews 483 years after the order by the Persian king Artaxerxes for the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem in 445 BC (see Nehemiah 2:4-8).

    It is generally accepted that the weeks in Daniel 9:24 are weeks of years, or periods of 7 years. The coming of Christ after 483 years (69 times 7), thus fulfilling this prophecy, is one of the greatest proofs of the divine inspiration of the Bible.

    When Christ came, He told the people that "the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel," Mark 1:15. The time that had been fulfilled was the chronology that had been given by Daniel.

    MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Daniel 9:24 gives us specific prophecies that would be fulfilled by Christ by the end of the 70 weeks or 490 years. He would "finish the transgression," which was accomplished when Christ died on the cross, saying "It is finished," (John 19:30, see also Hebrews 9:15).

    He would "make an end of sins," which can be understood as making an end of the sacrifice for sins. Christ did this when He offered Himself for our sins once and forever on the cross, Hebrews 9:26, 10:12, thus taking away the sin of the world, John 1:29, 1 John 3:5.

    He would "make reconciliation for iniquity." Christ made reconciliation for the sins of the people on the Cross, Ephesians 2:16, Hebrews 2:17.

    He would "bring in everlasting righteousness." Christ has been made unto us righteousness, Romans 5:18, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Colossians 1:20.

    He would "seal up the vision and prophecy." We are told that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets, Matthew 5:17, Acts 3:18, Romans 3:21.

    The Most Holy would be anointed, and this was fulfilled when Christ was anointed to be our Savior, Luke 4:18, 21.

    In Daniel 9:26 we are told that Christ would be cut off, but not for Himself - He died for us. The next event after that on the prophetic calendar would be the arrival of the "prince that shall come" to destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.

    This was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus came, within one generation of the time of Christ, as predicted (Matthew 23:35-36, 24:34) and destroyed Jerusalem.

    In verse 27 we are told that Christ would confirm the covenant with many (not all) for one week (Daniel’s 70th week). We are told in Hebrews 12:24 that Christ was the mediator of the new covenant. In the middle of the week Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, when He died on the cross for our sins - at that moment when He was on the cross, the veil of the temple was torn in half (Matthew 27:51, see also Hebrews 10:18).

    This disruption of the temple sacrifices was a sign that Christ had opened for us the way into the heavenly sanctuary, so that the animal sacrifices in the Temple were no longer necessary. (Based on this reference to Messiah’s ministry culminating "in the midst of the week" it has been traditionally believed that His earthly ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years).

    Over the centuries, the great commentators have agreed that Christ is the One who confirmed the covenant with many (see Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, Adam Clarke, Jamieson Fausset and Brown, Edward Young, John Calvin, John Wesley, Geneva Study Bible, etc). The Church Fathers such as Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Athanasius, Augustine and Eusebius regarded the 70th week of Daniel as having already been fulfilled by Christ’s earthly ministry, as did the Venerable Bede, John Wycliffe, Luther, Melancthon, John Gill, etc.

    Take a close look at Daniel 9:24. This verse clearly describes Christ’s earthly ministry, and tells us that all these things, including His making reconciliation for iniquity by dying on the Cross, were to take place within the 70 week period. Therefore, all 70 weeks have already been fulfilled.

    To place the 70th week in the future is to deny that Christ made reconciliation for iniquity when He died on the Cross, which would strike at the very foundations of Christianity.
    Please refer to this thread regarding the preterist position:

    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...moved-from-ETC

    Despite the possibilities of Daniel 9:27 having a historical interpretation, its still necessary to look at the 3.5 year period of Daniel 12, and Rev 12, Rev 13, Daniel 7. Additionally the short tribulation period mentioned by Matthew 24 in reference to Daniel's abomination. It is these other verses that more definitely refer to a future 3.5 year period, the focus for this 3.5 year future period is not Daniel 9:27 but Daniel 12 and these other future verses.

  11. #191
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post

    Despite the possibilities of Daniel 9:27 having a historical interpretation, its still necessary to look at the 3.5 year period of Daniel 12, and Rev 12, Rev 13, Daniel 7. Additionally the short tribulation period mentioned by Matthew 24 in reference to Daniel's abomination. It is these other verses that more definitely refer to a future 3.5 year period, the focus for this 3.5 year future period is not Daniel 9:27 but Daniel 12 and these other future verses.
    The verses below from Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have but one fulfillment.

    The "great tribulation" was unrepeatedly fulfilled in the first century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem.

    It's absolutely clear from:

    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    unrepeatable


    confirmation:

    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    This is first century unrepeatable stuff. Jews are still in all nations today; It's not going to happen again. Why do you think Christians headed for the mountains just before Jerusalem's destruction? Should Christians living in Jerusalem today be taking extra coats with them as they repair their roofs? Should they be praying that their flight not be in winter or on a Sabbath? Will their SUVs stall in the cold perhaps? Are Jews going to be trapped in Jerusalem again and those who manage to survive the sword, be shipped off to all nations..... again?

    I really don't understand why futurists attempt go beyond what is obviously fulfilled.

  12. #192
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    I got this from "Daniel's 70th Week Fulfilled?"

    26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off [ = killed, crucified], but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come [ = the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and its Temple in 70 A.D.] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27And he shall confirm the covenant [ = God's covenant with Israel prior to welcoming in the Gentiles ] with many for one week [ = 7 years = Messiah's 3 1/2 year ministry + 3 1/2 years of Apostles converting Jews only before widespread Gentile conversion began]: and in the midst of the week [ = the midpoint of the 70th week of years] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [ = Messiah, as "the Lamb of God"—John 1:29 , was sacrificed "once for all"—Heb. 9:26-10:18 ], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate [ = Roman armies cause destruction according to Jesus: "armies"—Luke 21:20 = "'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel"—Matthew 24:15 ], even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Israel is desolate even today and will be till the consummation, without temple, without (Aaronic) priesthood, without their Messiah, without salvation...and they will remain so until they say "Blessed is He...."

    As one author put it:

    Christ will return once more to raise the dead, judge the world and reward those that are His with an eternal inheritance.
    Modern interpretations of Revelation are just too complicated, too strange, and not in tune with the cohesive nature of Scripture.

  13. #193
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    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    The verses below from Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have but one fulfillment.

    The "great tribulation" was unrepeatedly fulfilled in the first century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem.

    It's absolutely clear from:

    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    unrepeatable


    confirmation:

    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    This is first century unrepeatable stuff. Jews are still in all nations today; It's not going to happen again. Why do you think Christians headed for the mountains just before Jerusalem's destruction? Should Christians living in Jerusalem today be taking extra coats with them as they repair their roofs? Should they be praying that their flight not be in winter or on a Sabbath? Will their SUVs stall in the cold perhaps? Are Jews going to be trapped in Jerusalem again and those who manage to survive the sword, be shipped off to all nations..... again?

    I really don't understand why futurists attempt go beyond what is obviously fulfilled.
    This method of interpretation is full of faults.

    Jesus is the morning star
    Satan is the morning star
    Therefore Jesus is Satan??

    Babylon attacks Jerusalem
    Assyria attacks Jerusalem
    Therefore Babylon is Assyria??

    Whenever anyone attacks Jerusalem its wise to flee into the mountains, just because the same phrase is used twice for two separate events, does not mean they are the same event. The bible duplicates phrasing all the time, and for a wide variety of events.


    Looking at Luke, the tribulation occurs AFTER the Jewish exile, not before:
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

  14. #194

    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    Modern interpretations of Revelation are just too complicated, too strange, and not in tune with the cohesive nature of Scripture.
    Try this one then: the book of Revelation aligns itself perfectly with the Olivet Discourse (John was one of the disciples on the Mount of Olives for it.)

    Chapters 1-7 (Revelation) generally deal with the tribulation of the church and the apostles (Matt. 24:9, Matt. 10:16-20, Matt. 23:34).
    Chapters 8-20 generally deal with the great tribulation of Jerusalem (Matt. 21:33-45, Matt. 23:35-38, Matt. 24:21, etc.)
    Chapters 21-22 deal with the ascendency of Christ's kingdom - His church - from the ashes of the Old Covenant kingdom, destroyed in 70 AD. (Hebrews 12:18-24, note especially verses 22-23).

    Once people begin to understand that there are two tribulations mentioned in Matthew 24 (and Mark 13 and Luke 21), and that the former (tribulation of apostles/church) is both a cause and a sign of the latter (great tribulation of Jerusalem), then Revelation is fairly easy to understand. It was written before 70 AD, regardless of what church tradition teaches about it.
    "Don't be afraid to see what you see."
    "Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."

    -- Ronald Reagan --

  15. #195

    Re: 7 Year Tribulation Challenged

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Please refer to this thread regarding the preterist position:

    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...moved-from-ETC

    Despite the possibilities of Daniel 9:27 having a historical interpretation, its still necessary to look at the 3.5 year period of Daniel 12, and Rev 12, Rev 13, Daniel 7. Additionally the short tribulation period mentioned by Matthew 24 in reference to Daniel's abomination. It is these other verses that more definitely refer to a future 3.5 year period, the focus for this 3.5 year future period is not Daniel 9:27 but Daniel 12 and these other future verses.
    Does everyone agree that the church is Christ's body and His temple? If not, you should:

    Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16 (NASB)
    Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 1 Corinthians 6:19 (NASB)
    Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 2 Corinthians 6:16 (NASB)
    So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22 (NASB)

    So if we - His church made up of believing Jews and Gentiles - are His temple, holy and consecrated to Him, what makes anyone think that God is going to consecrate a third temple in Jerusalem for the alleged "ANTICHRIST!" to profane it?

    And even if it is built, how do you profane that which is not holy?

    Dispensationalism/Futurism preaches and teaches another gospel wherein the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to save to the uttermost until God "86s" it to bring Israel back to Him through a new Temple and its renewed animal sacrifices.

    There is only one gospel and one way for any man, woman, or child to enter into God's presence, and no third temple will replace it. Ever. The gospel of Christ is not God's "Plan B" and He sure doesn't have a "Plan C" for redeeming mankind.

    Christ's sacrifice was always, is, and will always be God's "Plan A." People who teach differently are anathema.
    "Don't be afraid to see what you see."
    "Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."

    -- Ronald Reagan --

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