7 Year Tribulation Challenged

[Diggindeeper]

One more thing...there is no Biblical support for the idea of a 7-year tribulation anywhere. The tribulation of the first century church and apostles that began with the stoning of Stephen (Acts 8:1) continues to this very day in many countries around the world.

The great tribulation that befell Jerusalem - civil war, famine, and the war with Rome (beginning in 66 AD), ended in 70 AD, 3.5 years after it started.

Just to make clear my position on this goes with what Stormcrow said. (Above, in quotes)

Is a direct reference to the twice daily sacrifices the priests conducted in the Temple.

I also am in perfect agreement with Post #188, post #191 and 192 on page 13. And also page 14, posts #196. (For anyone who wishes to look there.)

But this can only be understood by those who have researched and learned just what did happen from mid AD 66 through AD 70. I used to be a futurist too, but after reading and learning how terrible those 3 1/2 years were....I had to change what was clear to me then.

Thanks Vanderhoven 7 and Stormcrow. You saved me a lot of typing.

[divaD]

Patently untrue. There were several breaks in the hostilities, the first when Cestius Gallus fled with the 12 Legion, the second during the year of the 4 emperors. When the actual time Jerusalem's zealots spent fighting with Rome is added up, it's 3.5 years.

Doesn't that put a gap or two in there then? It's funny, if someone wants to do that with the 70 weeks for example, where the point is, not that the weeks are consecutive, but that they add up to 70 weeks after the breaks, or gaps are removed., some of you seem to come unglued, maybe not you, but some seem to, then declare this is not the way to interpret Scriptures. Yet here you are using a similar concept. And since DD pointed out it's more like 4 years, and not 3.5 years, now there's breaks in there, in order to make it fit your view. I couldn't care less, really. I just think it's worth pointing out tho, how something is illogical if someone else does it, but perfectly logical if you do it. Speaking in general of course.

[vinsight4u8]

Jesus told His generation that they would not see the signs.
He foretold of wars and rumors of wars as still not yet even being the trouble part.



but the end is not yet
not nigh


The wars and rumors of wars time has to end before the beginning of sorrows time will even start.

[vinsight4u8]

Gabriel came to help Daniel know the last part of the timing of Jeremiah's prophecy.
Jeremiah had written about a he king -the Babylonian.
Daniel was shown when the he will desolate the holy site for the last time period.


The last part is set in Daniel 9:27 as being in a later determined time than 9:26.

[DurbanDude]

The tribulation seems to be 3.5 years long, but at the end of the 7 years, not the first half. Once this "treaty" is broken half-way through the 7 years, all hell breaks loose. But even then, God tells us that he will shorten that time for the sake of the elect, right?

Well that was the purpose of this thread. To show that in fact the only mention of a seven year treaty was fulfilled by Jesus 2000 years ago. There are only 3.5 years left, the bible does not mention a 7 year antichrist treaty.

[Prophecy Countdown]

Daniel 9:24-27 reads:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Daniel 9:24-27.

This seems very clear to me without inventing/impregnating the text with a 2000 year gap.

Thomas Williamson writes:

Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks is one of the most significant prophecies in the Bible, and one of the most misunderstood.

In this prophecy, the Jews were given the approximate time of the coming of their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. For this reason, there was a great air of expectancy among the Jews 483 years after the order by the Persian king Artaxerxes for the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem in 445 BC (see Nehemiah 2:4-8).

It is generally accepted that the weeks in Daniel 9:24 are weeks of years, or periods of 7 years. The coming of Christ after 483 years (69 times 7), thus fulfilling this prophecy, is one of the greatest proofs of the divine inspiration of the Bible.

When Christ came, He told the people that "the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel," Mark 1:15. The time that had been fulfilled was the chronology that had been given by Daniel.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Daniel 9:24 gives us specific prophecies that would be fulfilled by Christ by the end of the 70 weeks or 490 years. He would "finish the transgression," which was accomplished when Christ died on the cross, saying "It is finished," (John 19:30, see also Hebrews 9:15).

He would "make an end of sins," which can be understood as making an end of the sacrifice for sins. Christ did this when He offered Himself for our sins once and forever on the cross, Hebrews 9:26, 10:12, thus taking away the sin of the world, John 1:29, 1 John 3:5.

He would "make reconciliation for iniquity." Christ made reconciliation for the sins of the people on the Cross, Ephesians 2:16, Hebrews 2:17.

He would "bring in everlasting righteousness." Christ has been made unto us righteousness, Romans 5:18, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Colossians 1:20.

He would "seal up the vision and prophecy." We are told that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets, Matthew 5:17, Acts 3:18, Romans 3:21.

The Most Holy would be anointed, and this was fulfilled when Christ was anointed to be our Savior, Luke 4:18, 21.

In Daniel 9:26 we are told that Christ would be cut off, but not for Himself - He died for us. The next event after that on the prophetic calendar would be the arrival of the "prince that shall come" to destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.

This was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus came, within one generation of the time of Christ, as predicted (Matthew 23:35-36, 24:34) and destroyed Jerusalem.

In verse 27 we are told that Christ would confirm the covenant with many (not all) for one week (Daniel’s 70th week). We are told in Hebrews 12:24 that Christ was the mediator of the new covenant. In the middle of the week Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, when He died on the cross for our sins - at that moment when He was on the cross, the veil of the temple was torn in half (Matthew 27:51, see also Hebrews 10:18).

This disruption of the temple sacrifices was a sign that Christ had opened for us the way into the heavenly sanctuary, so that the animal sacrifices in the Temple were no longer necessary. (Based on this reference to Messiah’s ministry culminating "in the midst of the week" it has been traditionally believed that His earthly ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years).

Over the centuries, the great commentators have agreed that Christ is the One who confirmed the covenant with many (see Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, Adam Clarke, Jamieson Fausset and Brown, Edward Young, John Calvin, John Wesley, Geneva Study Bible, etc). The Church Fathers such as Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Athanasius, Augustine and Eusebius regarded the 70th week of Daniel as having already been fulfilled by Christ’s earthly ministry, as did the Venerable Bede, John Wycliffe, Luther, Melancthon, John Gill, etc.

Take a close look at Daniel 9:24. This verse clearly describes Christ’s earthly ministry, and tells us that all these things, including His making reconciliation for iniquity by dying on the Cross, were to take place within the 70 week period. Therefore, all 70 weeks have already been fulfilled.

To place the 70th week in the future is to deny that Christ made reconciliation for iniquity when He died on the Cross, which would strike at the very foundations of Christianity.

Capitals used for emphasis only.

Vanderhoven
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Daniel 9:24 gives us specific prophecies that would be fulfilled by Christ by the end of the 70 weeks or 490 years. He would "finish the transgression," which was accomplished when Christ died on the cross, saying "It is finished," (John 19:30, see also Hebrews 9:15).

I see the way it works. To make an historicist theory fit the Bible, they simply change the Bible to fit the theory?!! The Bible warns us not to do that in. Revelation 22: 18, 19.

Vanderhoven
He would "make an end of sins," which can be understood as making an end of the sacrifice for sins. Christ did this when He offered Himself for our sins once and forever on the cross, Hebrews 9:26, 10:12, thus taking away the sin of the world, John 1:29, 1 John 3:5.

.

HE WOULD

The words (He would) have been added to the scriptures by Vanderhoven as an afterthought, which drags the time of the 70 weeks from within the vision, concerning THE TIME OF THE END stated by the angel Gabriel in Daniel 8: 16 – 17 back up the Metal Empire Time Span Statue, mentioned in Daniel 2 to within the time of the crucifixion, an event within the LEGS OF IRON, Roman Empire period on that Time Statue. The time of the end contains the 4th beast kingdom period, also called ‘A Kingdom Divided’ lasting for, a 42 months time span. See Revelation 13: 1 – 18. This is the same beast found in Daniel 7: 7 whose kingdom is placed at the ‘Feet Of Iron And Potter’s Clay’ period on that statue where, at the time of, in Daniel 2: 41 – 45 his kingdom will be set up during the time of specific kings/leaders as is the case in Daniel chapter 7.

To place, Daniel 9: 22, 23, mentioning the vision then the explanation concerning that vision in verses 24 – 27, into the past, I.e. 70 AD is to deny the biblically established time of the vision told by Gabriel in Daniel 8: 16, 17, within which the indignation is mentioned in Daniel 8: 19, concerning a ‘vile person’ mentioned in Daniel 11: 21, who carries that indignation out in Daniel 11: 31. Daniel 11:35, 40 mentions THE TIME OF THE END, and ‘AT THAT TIME’ the dead are raised in Daniel 12: 1 - 3.

When reading Daniel 2: 41 – 45 it mentions God’s Kingdom Everlasting being set up at a specific time on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue, which is after its feet, a period of 42 months being the time of the best kingdom..

Daniel 2: 41. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the KINGDOM shall be DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of the IRON, forasmuch as thou sawest the IRON mixed with MIRY CLAY clay. 42.And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PARTLY STRONG, and PARTLY BROKEN. 43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Daniel 2: 44. AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER.

Reading Daniel 7: we are told that the four beasts that rise up are four kings in verse 17. “THESE GREAT BEASTS, WHICH ARE FOUR, are FOUR KINGS, which SHALL RISE OUT OF THE EARTH.”

AFTER THE FEET OF IRON AND CLAY PERIOD OF 42 MONTHS, JUDGMENT IS GIVEN TO THE SAINTS WHO POSSESS THE KINGDOM.

Daniel 7: 18 “BUT THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL TAKE THE KINGDOM, AND POSSES THE KINGDOM FOR EVER, EVEN FOR EVER AND EVER.”

Judgment day was not in 70 AD. Satan/little horn did not lose his kingdom and God did not set up His Everlasting Kingdom because we are still dying as a result of sin. I did mention Daniel 2: 41 – 45 when GOD is to set up His everlasting kingdom at the time of certain kings/leaders and we can see when this will occur in chapter 7 following.

Daniel 7: 21. I beheld, and THE SAME HORN MADE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and prevailed against them;
Daniel 7: 22. UNITL THE ANCIENT OF DAYS CAME, AND JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN TO THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7: 26. “But THE JUDGMENT SHALL SIT, AND THEY SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS DOMINION, to consume and to destroy it UNTO THE END.
Daniel 7: 27. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall BE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, whose kingdom is an EVRLASTING kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28. HITHERTO IS THE END OF THE MATTER.”

Daniel chapter 7 from the lion losing his eagle’ wings to the end of the matter, I have named the Overview.
The above will occur at THE TIME OF THE END, fulfilling Daniel 2: 41 – 45, leading to and during the feet of iron and Potter’s clay period.
The above is within the 2300 day vision’s period until the day of the LORD, when God sets up His Kingdom Everlasting

Vanderhoven
He would "make reconciliation for iniquity." Christ made reconciliation for the sins of the people on the Cross, Ephesians 2:16, Hebrews 2:17.

Who is it and what is it that is to ‘make an end of sins according to the Bible?’ This is where Vandehoven distorts the truth just a little by tampering with the word of GOD by adding his words ‘HE WOULD’ which fragments the biblical time context because of his 70 AD preconceived idea.

Knowing that we are told at what time the vision is concerned with in Daniel 8: 16 – 17 and that Daniel did not understand the vision, Gabriel returned to Daniel to give him UNDERSTANDING’ so that he could understand and ‘CONSIDER THE VISION’ in Daniel 9: 22, 23, Gabriel, gave Daniel the information about the VISION in verses 24 – 27 to make Daniel understand that VISION and in Daniel; 10: 1 he understood the thing. It is axiomatic that the 70 WEEKS are a part of the that specific vision, therefore during the time of it at the ‘TIME OF THE END.’ ipso facto.

Vanderhoven
He would "bring in everlasting righteousness." Christ has been made unto us righteousness, Romans 5:18, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Colossians 1:20.

The above words ‘HE WOULD’ are not within verse 24 therefore not applicable in this case to the crucifixion of the Christ.
According to the Bible, it is Daniel’s People, that have to accomplish certain requirements by seventy weeks not Jesus, because the angel speaking to Daniel says that quote ‘Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Nowhere in that verse does it say HE/Jesus would have to accomplish that at the time of the end because that responsibility is firmly placed upon ‘thy people’ the angel is speaking to Daniel so it’s (Daniel’s people) Israel and upon thy holy city, Daniel would consider Jerusalem the Holy city.’ As expressed in Daniel’s supplications to God in Daniel 9: 16.

Vanderhoven
He would "seal up the vision and prophecy." We are told that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets, Matthew 5:17, Acts 3:18, Romans 3:21.

The Bible states it very differently from Vanderhoven.
Seventy weeks are determined
UPON THEY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel was told these things and the result was that it gave him understanding of the vision concerned with the time of the end.
Daniel 10: 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and HAD UNDERSTANDING OF THE VISION.

Vanderhoven
The Most Holy would be anointed, and this was fulfilled when Christ was anointed to be our Savior, Luke 4:18, 21.

Vanderhoven, then quotes events in Luke 4: 18, 21. Which occurred during the ROMAN EMPIRE LEGS OF IRON period during the Lord’s earthly ministry yet he doesn’t understand that the 70 weeks is concerned with the evening morning vision’s 2300 days at the time of the end containing the feet of iron and Potter’s clay period of 42 months.
Yes in the following events IT IS JESUS that is ANOINTED TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR, PREAC DELIVERANCE, RECOVERING SIGHT TO THE BLIND and giving LIBERTY to those that are bruised during HIS earthly ministry during the Roman Empire, LEGS OF IRON period on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel 2. Check it out as to what was actually fulfilled.

Luke 4: 18. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because HE HATH ANOINTED ME TO preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me TO heal the brokenhearted, TO preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, TO set at liberty them that are bruised, 19. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21. And he began to say unto them, THIS DAY is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Vanderhoven
In Daniel 9:26 we are told that Christ would be cut off, but not for Himself - He died for us. The next event after that on the prophetic calendar would be the arrival of the "prince that shall come" to destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.

I must remind those reading this of Daniel 8: 16 and verse 17 where Gabriel fixes the vision to THE TIME OF THE END, but unfortunately Daniel did not understand it so, in Daniel 9. 21, 22, 23, Gabriel comes to Daniel to give Daniel UNDERSTANDING allowing him TO CONSIDER THE VISION and proceeds to speaks of the same vision within verses 24 – 27 which enables Daniel to understand that vision in Daniel 10: 1, which he does understand therefore the seventy weeks belong to the time of the vision. How then can 'cut off' be about His crucifixion when the vision is very close to His second coming?

Vanderhoven completely misses Daniel 9: 22. “And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.”
Daniel 9: is where we read that Daniel was given understanding to consider the VISION, which he did not understand earlier in Daniel 8: 27.

The result of Daniel understanding the 70 weeks prophecy concerning the vision is found in Daniel 10: 1. “In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, BUT THE TIME APPOINTED was LONG: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of THE VISION.

Vanderhoven
This was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus came, within one generation of the time of Christ, as predicted (Matthew 23:35-36, 24:34) and destroyed Jerusalem.

How could Daniel 7 or 8 or 9 or chapter 10 for that matter be fulfilled? Titus is dead and we still wait for the time of the end, Titus does not belong within the vision but the 70 weeks, being an expansion, a progression of it enabling Daniel to understand the vision does.

Historicists use the following verse as supposedly supporting a 70 AD day of judgment upon Jerusalem.

Matthew 23: 35. “That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Note that Jesus speaks of Abel, 1st generation born of Adam who was murdered by Cain way back in Geneses. Zachariah, some historians place him around 741 BC. Barachias, these names were of several generations and those standing before Jesus, did not kill Abel, Cain did. Also the generation of Jesus is mentioned in Matthew 1: 1. The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. And then the chapter works through many a generation, back to Adam yet it is called ‘the generation of Jesus Christ.’
Jesus was talking about the generation of evil men from Cain until all these evil mortal men will die the second permanent death.
Jesus speaks of the many Prophets killed in Jerusalem, a time period covering many a generation.

Jesus then speaks of the Prophets that those in Jerusalem killed. Prophets, which were over many a generation. HE then blames ‘this generation’ then HE speaks of His second coming, which will be on the Day of the Lord, on the Day of Judgment. The Day of Judgment is set out in Zechariah 14 where the topography of the Mount of Olives will be changed. Also see 2 Peter 3: 5 – 7 about that great day of the LORD. Check it out.

Matthew 23: 36. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 23: 36 – 39 is yet to occur because the Mount of Olives has not been cleaved in two straddling a huge valley which Zechariah makes clear, that it will happen on the day of the LORD. Check out Zechariah 14.

Vanderhoven
“In verse 27 we are told that Christ would confirm the covenant with many (not all) for one week (Daniel’s 70th week).

The above statement ignores the time factor of the vision found in Daniel 8: 17, 19, 27 and where that same vision is spoken of in Daniel 9: 22, 23.

In verse 27, it is about the 2300, day vision and time of it. It cannot be stretched over 1900 years from 70 AD until now. The Vision begins with and ends during the time of the end and does not start way back in 70 AD.
Jesus was not crucified within the vision’s much later appointed time span.
It says the ’Messiah is cut off’ first meanwhile the people of the prince destroy the city and sanctuary and that the end of the war DESOLATIONS ARE DETERMINED.
Daniel 9: 26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of THE WAR DESOLATIONS ARE DETERMINED.

Verse 27 is talking about the prince from verse 26 this same prince that makes a covenant with the vile person, mentioned from verse 21, at the beginning of the week and that vile person breaks the covenant/agreement half way through that week by placing the abomination, which he shall make desolate until the consummation/end 3617 Heb.

Daniel 2: 27. And HE SHALL confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week HE SHALL CAUSE the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE it, even UNTIL THE CONSUMATION, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It will be AFTER the abomination of desolation set up lasting 1290 days according to Daniel 12: 11 that Jesus will return that’s 1290 days later from Matthew 24: 15 until immediately after the tribulation period of those days, in verse 29 – 31 Jesus will return, unless Mark 13: 20 shortens that time span.
The abomination of desolation could not have occurred around 70 AD because 1290 days later Jesus would have set up His everlasting Kingdom according to the Bible, but HE did not.

Daniel 10: 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but THE TIME APPOINTED was LONG: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

We are told that the abomination of desolation lasts for 1290 days in Daniel 12: 11 where the word sacrifice some times written in italics or within parenthesis was added as an afterthought, which has been removed.

It is impossible to have Jesus making a covenant and breaking it in the last week then placing the abomination of desolation set up lasting 1290 days according to Daniel 12: 11. And FROM THE TIME that THE DAILY SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.

Even if the historicists fiddle days into years it still won’t work. Lets do the maths.

Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

From the abomination of desolation set up to the second coming the time span will be 1290 days. Unless shortened by the words in Mark 13: 19.

Matthew 24: 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The seventieth week is nothing like Vanderhoven, thinks it is.

Vanderhoven
This seems very clear to me without inventing/ impregnating the text with a 2000 year gap.

I think Vandehoven is way off track and way out of agreement with Daniel and Peter on this issue.

Repeated from page 15 post 223.
Daniel said this about the time of the vision

In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, BUT THE TIME APPOINTED was LONG: and he understood the thing, and HAD UNDERSTANDING OF THE VISION.”


2 Peter 3: 8. BUT YO MUST NOT FORGET, DEAR FRIENDS, THE A DAY IS LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS TO THE LORD, AND A THOUSAND YEARS IS LIKE A DAY.

2 Peter 3: 9. THE LORD ISN’T REALY BEING SLOW ABOUT HIS PROMISE TO RETURN, AS SOME PEOPL THINK. NO, HE IS BEING PATIENT FOR YOUR SAKE. HE DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO PERISH, SO HE IS GIVING MORE TIME FOR EVERYONE TO REPENT.

2 Peter 3: 10. BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS UNEXPECTEDLY AS A THIEF. THEN THE HEAVENS WIL PASS AWAY WITH A TERRIBLE NOISE, and EVERYTHING IN THEM WILL DISAPEAR IN FIRE, and THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING ON IT WILL BE EXPOSED TO JUDGMENT.

2 Peter 3: 11. SINCE EVERYTHING AROUND US IS GOING TO MELT AWAY, what holy, godly lives you should be living!

2 Peter 3: 12. YOU SHOULD LOOK FORWARD TO THAT DAY AND HURRY IT ALONG—THE DAY WHEN GOD WILL SET THE HEAVEN ON FIRE AND THE ELEMENTS WILL MELT AWAY IN THE FLAMES.

2 Peter 3: 13. But we are looking forward to THE NEW HEAVENS AND ANEW EARTH HE HAS PROMISED, A WORLD WHERE EVERYONE IS RIGHT WITH GOD.

[Prophecy Countdown]

Vanderhoven
We are told in Hebrews 12:24 that Christ was the mediator of the new covenant. In the middle of the week Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, when He died on the cross for our sins - at that moment when He was on the cross, the veil of the temple was torn in half (Matthew 27:51, see also Hebrews 10:18).”

Yes Christ IS the mediator of the new covenant and yes many bodies of the Saints rose in Matthew 27: 51 because Jesus is the Resurrection. Hebrews 10: 18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Yes He is our sin bearer.
However some offerings are evening morning offerings, thanks offerings,which are not sin offerings.

As I said Daniel 11: 27 is about the Vile Person that reneges on a covenant made with the prince.
Daniel 11: 21. And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. 22. And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 11: 30. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31And arms shall stand on his part, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and SHALL TAKE AWAY THE DAILY and THEY SHALL PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE. 32And SUCH AS DO WICKEDLY AGAINST THE COVENANT shall he corrupt by flatteries: BUT THE PEOPLE THAT KNOW THEIR GOD SHALL BE STRONG, and do exploits.
Daniel 11: 35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: because it is yet for a time appointed

Vanderhoven
This disruption of the temple sacrifices was a sign that Christ had opened for us the way into the heavenly sanctuary, so that the animal sacrifices in the Temple were no longer necessary. (Based on this reference to Messiah’s ministry culminating "in the midst of the week" it has been traditionally believed that His earthly ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years).

Vanderhoven quotes events from the time of the Roman Empire during the legs of iron and tries to impose them from that biblically allotted time into a time span to which they do not belong, when the Bible is pointing to THE TIME OF THE END concerning the vision, a 2300 days period in which the last 4th beast ‘kingdom Divided’ belongs at the Feet of Iron and Potter’s Clay, 42 month period along with the 2300 ends on the day of the Lord.

We have taken a much deeper look into this, thanks be given to our Comforter, the Holy Spirit enabling us to see the glory of GOD through HIS word on this matter.

Daniel 12: 4. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12: 8. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9. And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are CLOSED UP SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END.

Vanderhoven
To place the 70th week in the future is to deny that Christ made reconciliation for iniquity when He died on the Cross, which would strike at the very foundations of Christianity.

To drag Daniel 9: 22, 23, 24 – 27, into the past, i.e. 70 AD is to deny the biblically established time of the vision told by Gabriel to Daniel in Daniel 8: 16, 17, within which the indignation occurs, first mentioned in Daniel 8: 19 this same vision that Daniel ‘understood not’ in Daniel 8: 27, named ‘the evening morning vision,’ which was placed at ‘the time of the end,’ this same vision concerned with that same time of the end period is mentioned in Daniel 9: 22, 23, and Daniel 10: 1, and all the events in 2 Peter 3: 1 – 18, on the day of the LORD also denies Zechariah 14.
Who’s comments stand against the historicist view?

The CEV.
Daniel, go about your business, because the meaning of this message will remain secret until the end of time. 10. Many people will have their hearts and lives made pure and clean, but those who are evil will keep on being evil and never understand. Only the wise will understand. 11. There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the “Horrible Thing” that causes destruction.

2 Timothy 2: 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I simply present the biblical evidence of the testimony of Jesus which is upheld by His People at the time of the end whom Satan will try to defeat in Revelation 12: 17, this same testimony that we are told is the ‘spirit of prophecy’ mentioned in Revelation 19: 10.

Revelation 12: 17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19: 10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

[Diggindeeper]

I'm still taking my stand with Vanderhoven and Stormcrow....

See post #226.

I used to have the same view as you, Prophecy Countdown, but after years of study and comparing scriptures along with history I can no longer go with your view. In fact, I used to make the same arguments as you. Its really pretty much the same with all futurists. For me, this was a long and painful time of undoing what I'd heard taught and changing my view. Vanderhoven and Stormcrow are right.

[Prophecy Countdown]

I'm still taking my stand with Vanderhoven and Stormcrow....

See post #226.

I used to have the same view as you, Prophecy Countdown, but after years of study and comparing scriptures along with history I can no longer go with your view. In fact, I used to make the same arguments as you. Its really pretty much the same with all futurists. For me, this was a long and painful time of undoing what I'd heard taught and changing my view. Vanderhoven and Stormcrow are right.

I can't agree with you on biblical grounds.

[vinsight4u8]

Daniel 11 splits to the end days in verse 13.

after certain years

Daniel 11 links back to chapter 10.
Chapter 10 was about the last days.

[John 8:32]

Just out of curiosity, if Daniel's prophecies were of the end time as was Mat 24

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

What days are we living in? If that was the end, what is this called today?

[Prophecy Countdown]

Just out of curiosity, if Daniel's prophecies were of the end time as was Mat 24

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

What days are we living in? If that was the end, what is this called today?

HIS second coming is concerned with the time of the end as is the abomination of desolation set up.
Matthew 24: 15. “When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:”

Daniel 12: 11 states that the ‘ABOMINATION OF DESOALTION SET UP’ will last for 1290 days, the word ‘sacrifice’ written in italics indicating it to have been added, as an afterthought, does not belong to the biblical ‘TIME OF THE END’ to which Matthew 24 is a part. The sacrifice of the Lamb occurred during the Roman Empire at the legs of iron.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.

From verse 15 we have 1290 days until verses 29 – 31, unless Mark 13: 20 kicks in.
Mark 13: 20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Matthew 24: 29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We can use the same mathematical equation and apply it to the same event as follows.

Daniel 11: 21. And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Again, the word “sacrifice” was added into Daniel 11: 31 as indicated by it being written in italics, so I have un-added it.

Daniel 11: 31. And arms shall stand on his part, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

The abomination of desolation set up, from Daniel 11: 31 there will be no more than 1290 days to when Jesus returns to raise the dead on the day of the LORD, Daniel 12: 1 – 2.

Daniel 12: 1. AND AT THAT TIME SHALL MICHAEL STAND UP, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. 2. And many of them THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, some to EVERLASTING LIFE, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 11: 31 to Daniel 12: 1 - 3 is about that same event and time span as depicted from Matthew 24.15 to Matthew 24: 29, 30, 31.

Now to answer your question about the time we live in.

Daniel 7 is the overview that fulfills Daniel 2: 41 – 45 and chapters 8 to 12 is a progression, an expansion of chapter 7 in detail.

Having said that, let’s look at Daniel 8 where the answer to your question can be found.
The LION is the symbol Great Britain.
The EAGLE is the symbol of the United States of America.
The BEAR is the symbol of Russia.
The Leopard is the symbol of France, where in Normandy, it is used in their heraldry celebrations, and also in Jersey and Guernsey.
The HE GOAT from the far West that will attack the ram is the USA.
Another reminder.
Daniel 8 is the lead up to the 2300 days, called ‘the time of the end’ that will begin when the Lion, Great Britain loses his eagle wings the Alliance partner the Eagle, United States of America.
There will be a last time span portion of 42 months set at ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue, a period, to which the Lion, bear and leopard beasts of Daniel 7: 4 – 6 and Daniel 8: 8, 9 will join in with the dreadful 4th beast of Daniel 7: 7 to become part of that 4th beast World ‘divided kingdom’ supported by the little horn/Satan in Revelation 13: 1 – 18.
Concerning Daniel 2.
No leader or event performed within a preceding metal empire time span zone, can be dragged into a much later period such as that of the ‘feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ time span, as is the reverse case for the lion, bear, leopard beasts being dragged from ‘the time of the end containing the 42 months at the feet of iron and clay’ time zone to which God originally placed them upon the Metal Empire Time Span Statue where, at the end of 42 months of that kingdom God will set up HIS everlasting kingdom. See Daniel 2: 44. My last statement will become obvious as we progress through the book of Daniel 8.
Daniel 8: 1. “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.”
Daniel 8: 2. “And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.”

The Tigris and Euphrates rivers meet at the Ulai River at the widening or the golf. The Ulai is now called the ‘Karun River’ and is located in southern Iran near Basra in Iraq.
‘The province of Elam’ is the biblical geographical location of the war that may soon occur with the Iranians and the Western Alliance, being the lion, UK with eagle’s wings, US now depicted as the he goat from the far West and France is getting involved.

Persia/Iran, is set to rise after the shorter horn Medo/Iraq, according to verse 3, Persia/Iran is described as being the higher horn on the ram that comes up last and pushes north, west and south.

Daniel 8: 3. “Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.”

Daniel 8: 4. “I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.”

If you place your finger on Iran at the Ulai River, now called the Karun River by the Widening near the Iraqi city Basra on a Global World map and spin it anti-clockwise your finger ends up resting on the USA.
Please note, that your finger will not pass over Greece, this is important for when we get to verse 21, of Daniel chapter 8 later.

A‘ notable horn,’ Commander - in – Chief. The number one, ‘first king,’ leader, President, of the USA, symbol the Eagle depicted in Daniel 7: 4 as eagle’s wings supporting the Lion/UK Daniel 8 tells how the eagle loses its Alliance partner, both these countries were involved in knocking over Iraq and destroying its military and its shorter horn, Iraq’s leader Saddam Hussein being the shorter horn on the ram.

Daniel 8: 5. “And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.”

Daniel 8: 6. “And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.”

Daniel 8: 7. “And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.”

The US Presidency will end at the height of his power and is replaced by the ‘four notables’ that came up in Daniel 8: 8 and are to be followed by the little horn as was the case in Daniel 7: 4 - 8. Same kings, same little horn, same time because it is about the same event from a different perspective, which will cause the separation of the lion and eagle wings Alliance causing the lion to lose his eagle wings partner and so the countdown of the 2300 days will begin. The four beasts rise to fill the political vacuum left by the USA.

Daniel 8: 8. “Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.”

The link between Daniel chapters 7. and 8 is confirmed by the same sequence, of events, concerning the same 4 characters that rise up, followed by the little horn.
Four will rise up, in Daniel 7: 4 – 7 followed by the little horn in verse 8.

Daniel 7: 8. “I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”

We are given an expansion by more information in Daniel 8: about the same sequence of events, such as the lion, bear, leopard, 4th beast rising, which makes four beasts followed by the little horn, firstly read in Daniel 7: 4 – 8, through the progression of Daniel 8: after the US presidency ends by the horn breaking the Alliance ends and the same 4 rise up then the little horn in Daniel 8: 8 - 9.

We have more detail as to why the lion loses his eagle wings, which begins the 2300 day countdown.
Daniel 8: 8 the horn/Presidency is broken on the he goat that will come from the far West and defeat the ram’s higher horn, Iran that ‘rises up later.’
Daniel 8: 9 the little horn/Satan rises as depicted in Revelation 13: 1 – 18 supporting the beast for 42 months, as does the lion, bear, and leopard.

Gabriel is clever in this, in that when the presidency is broken the ‘Alliance’ between the Lion, Great Britain and the Eagle, the United States of America will split causing the lion to lose his eagle’s wings and lion’s heart for that of a man and made to stand on his own two feet in verse 4 of Daniel 7 starting the countdown of the 2300 ereb/evening, boqer/morning vision time span also called ‘the time of the end’.

The little horn is Satan that casts stars/angels out of heaven, in Daniel 8: 9, 10.
The dragon is named as doing this in Revelation 12: 3, 4, 5, see dragon as Satan in verse 9.

Stars can mean angels.
Rev 1: 20. “The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

Daniel 8: 8. “Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.”

Daniel 8: 9. “And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.”

Daniel 8: 10. “And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.”

Let’s check. According to the Bible, the ‘little horn’ had the power to cast the stars/angels out of Heaven at the time of baby Jesus?

Revelation 12: 1. “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:”

Revelation 12: 2. “And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.”


Revelation 12: 3. “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold A GREAT RED DRAGON, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.”

Revelation 12: 4. “And HIS TAIL drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and THE DRAGON stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”

Revelation 12: 5. “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

It is the red dragon/Satan that will be cast out to deceive the World.
Revelation 12: 9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Daniel 8: 11. “Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.”

Daniel 8: 12. “And an host was given against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.”.

Daniel 8: 13. “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?”

Daniel 8: 14. “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”

Daniel 8: 15. “And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.”

Daniel 8: 16. “And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.”

The precise time of the vision, was essential, for Daniel’s understanding of it and therefore, as a consequence, our understanding of the ‘Evening Morning Vision,’ also.
The angel Gabriel, approached Daniel, and stood very close to him, to make sure that he didn’t miss that specific, time of the vision message. Even though it would scare Daniel, Gabriel, was compelled to drive home that very point.

Daniel 8: 17. “So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said to me, understand, o son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.”

Daniel 8: 18. “Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.”

The angel Gabriel, can now expand on previous verses, after informing Daniel, about the time of the vision, but he is also very specific about the time of the indignation’s ending, as at the ‘last end of the indignation’ and ‘the time appointed the end.’
The indignation is against the Holy Covenant by the vile person in Daniel 11: 21, 30, 31, 36.

Daniel 8: 19. “And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: for at the time appointed THE END SHALL BE.”

We are again told, in verse 20 about the ram that has two horns, representing two kings of two nations, now called Iraq, that comes up first, then about Iran, ‘the higher horn’ representing a leader that rises later and that is a point to remember, when we decipher Daniel, chapter 11: 1 - 4.
These two horns, are the two, on the ram mentioned in Daniel, chapter 8: verses, 3 to 8.
Daniel, within the vision, is standing ‘in the province of Elam,’ ‘by the Ulai,’ when given the interpretation of the vision. Two horns represent two leaders of two countries named Media, now called, ‘Iraq,’ and Persia, now called ‘Iran.’

Daniel 8, 20. “The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.”

[Prophecy Countdown]

I will soon have to deal with the poorly translated name ‘Grecia’ Strong’s numbering system as number 3120, in verse 21 which some claim is supposedly concerned with. Quote ‘Alexander the Great and his Greek Empire, battling against the Medo/Persian Empire.’ Unquote.

IMHO, I cannot agree, biblically that this has anything to do with, Alexander the Great, of Greece, who lived early during the Greek Empire, at the ‘brass thighs’ on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel 2:
We were told, where the evening morning vision belongs, according to the angel Gabriel.

The Evening Morning Vision, within which this prophecy is concerned, belongs at ‘the time of the end,’ in which the feet of iron and clay’ 42 months fits within.
Greece, however, belongs way back at the time of the ‘brass thighs,’ from 331 BC - 168 BC a time span section on the Various Metal Empire Time Span Statue image, of Daniel, chapter, 2 starting way before the Roman Empire, existing at the ‘legs of iron’ time span 168 BC - 476 A D.
‘The evening morning vision,’ of some twenty three hundred days, has a biblically specified, geographical location, for the battle to take place, between the ‘he goat’ and ram. That battle takes place near, the Ulai River, now called the ‘Karun River,’ located in southern Iran, in the province of Elam, in Daniel, chapter, 8: verses, 1 to 8.

However the battle, between the Greeks, and Medo Persian Empire, was during 331 AD took place at a different location called the Arbella Plains, which is one thousand kilometers, away from the stipulated vision’s geographical location within the province of Elam,’ where the ram and He goat, from the far West, takes place.
The 331. B.C. battle was at the end of the Medo/Persian Empire’s ‘Silver chest shoulders and arms’ period, and at the beginning of the Brass thigh’s section, on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel chapter 2.
Let’s have a close look at verse 21 and why Translators, used the word ‘Grecia’ from a man’s name ‘Javan.’
If a translated word, does not reflect the source word’s meaning, then a distortion of the original occurs. Maybe a Translator, with an historic preconceived idea about what they think a source word should mean instead of what it stands for could be at fault here.

Such is the case with the source word ‘Javan’ a poorly translated man’s name’ into the word Grecia’ in verse 21. Most that read that verse, may think it is about Greece. So I have to use the Biblical source word ‘Javan.’ Strong’s numbering system as 3120 to prove otherwise.
Daniel 8: 21. “And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.”

Question. Who is the first king, the number ONE most powerful leader, or most powerful President of the Western Gentile nations, just before the time of ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay period?’ That comes from the far West?
Is it Greece? No, IMHO. It’s the United States of America the Eagle’s wings on the lion, Great Britain, in Daniel chapter, 7: verse 4, and named the ‘he goat’ in Daniel, chapter 8: verses, 5 and 8 and in verse 21 named as the ‘rough goat,’ that comes from the far West, without touching the ground or passing over or near Greece, according to the biblical direction from the West. Directly tracking a line on the World map would begin in America straight to Iran’s Ulai River.

Who is it that has the military capabilities, that would allow a powerful military force, to travel directly ‘from the West, over the face of the whole world,’ ‘without touching the ground’ to reach the Ulai, now called the ‘Karun River,’ situated in ‘the province of Elam,’ and defeat Iran, the ‘higher horn that comes up last’ in verse 3?

It is the United States of America, the eagle, the most powerful country to have ever graced the Earth, lead by the President, the Commander - in – Chief, of the United States of America’ and number one power out of the nation of Western Gentiles.
He is the first ‘king’ Leader, President the ‘horn’ on the rough goat. The first, being the most powerful.

The point is this. From Greece to Iran, it’s not that far to have to travel and if we place a straight measure from the USA directly from the West, it makes a straight line to the Ulai , now the Karun River, in Elam, in Iran, it misses Greece completely.
Now to the biblical back up point I wish to make about the poorly translated name Grecia, in Daniel 8: 21. The following verses speak of nations.
Javan 3120 translated into ‘Grecia’ 3120.

Geneses 10: 4. And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

Geneses 10: 5. By THESE WERE THE ISLES OF THE GENTILES DIVIDED IN THEIR LANDS; every one after his tongue, after their families, IN THEIR NATIONS.

I had someone tell me, on this Bible forum net site that quote. “Gabriel told Daniel the name ‘Grecia’ and on that basis alone, I believe the Bible.” Unquote.

I replied that “Daniel was not told the translated name ‘Grecia’ and when we take a deeper look into this, it can be biblically proven.”

I said that “some of the book of Daniel, was written in Imperial Aramaic and Hebrew, and that Daniel spoke Aramaic”.
“Daniel was told the Aramaic name ‘Javan’ which is numbered by Strong’s as 3120. from which Grecia, 3120. was translated.”

I went on to explain the following.

“Javan,’ 3120 and his four sons Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim, were not representative of the one nation of Greece solely, in fact the name ‘Javan’ and his four sons relates to the Western migration and populating of many lands along with the Isles of the Gentiles Western nations, the seafaring nations that eventually sailed as far as the United States and even further.”

My Bible backup was as follows. ‘Javan,’ Strong’s number 3120. means what the Bible says as follows.
{ 3120 }
Geneses 10: 4. “And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.”
Geneses 10: 5. “By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.” “The original name {Javan 3120} is not about the one nation of Grecia, it is about many nations, including Greece, and the European nations, every one after their own language.”
“Javan’s four son’s names, are mentioned in many European historic places, and also in the Bible, as trading nations. Finally the seafaring Europeans reached America, and it became the ‘first’ or number one power, and its President, being numbered first, the number one leader, of the nation of Western Gentiles” Unquote.

Please understand that whenever I see the original name ‘Javan,’ Strong’s numbered 3120. I will use that name instead of the poorly translated name of the one nation Grecia.
The USA, the Eagle, and the President, depicted as an horn on the ‘he goat,’ also called the ‘rough goat,’ in Daniel 8: 21, is in charge of a much greater military power than is possessed by the UK, the lion or Russia, the Bear, or, France, the leopard, or by the 4th beast all put together.

That fact is indicated after the horn on the goat is broken, when the’ four notables,’ rise up in its place in. Daniel 8: 22. “Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation of, BUT NOT IN HIS POWER.”
Greece is not that powerful.

When we read in Daniel, chapter 8: verses, 5 to 7 that the ‘he goat,’ will come ‘from the West traveling over the whole earth without touching the ground’ and will beat Iran, the higher horn that comes up last, on the ram, the President on the ‘rough goat,’ will lose office when he becomes ‘very great,’ indicated by the horn from the West on the rough goat being broken after beating the ram.

After the successful attack and defeat of Iran, depicted by the rough goat, America, the Eagle, will withdraw from the Alliance, causing the eagle’s wings, to be plucked off, Great Britain, that uses the Lion, symbol, will be forced to stand, on its own two feet, losing his lion’s brave heart for that of a man’s, in Daniel, chapter, 7: verse, 4 and verses 5, 6, 7 equal, the Four that rise up, then the little horn follows.
We are told about the ram, then the great horn, on the rough goat, being broken, and about the four notables that rise up in. Daniel, chapter 8 verses 8 and 9 these are the same four that rose up, followed by the little horn in Daniel 7: 4 to 8 where the Saints will be given the everlasting kingdom after Jesus gains back the kingdom in Daniel 7 verse 14, then the Saints in verses 17, 18, 21, 22, 25 – 27. That will end the matter in verse 28.

We have the explanation of the same four that rise up, then followed by the little horn in verses, 20 to 22 affectively joining chapters 7 and 8.
Daniel chapter 8 leads to the lion losing his eagle's wings to within the vision’s twenty three hundred days, ‘time of the end’ period, when God, sets up His kingdom, everlasting, portrayed in Daniel, chapters 7 and 8. In which fits the time of ‘the kingdom divided’ at the 42 months ‘feet of iron and Potter’s clay,’ time span on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue Image of Daniel, chapter, 2: verses, 41 to 45.

Daniel 8: 20. “The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.”

See, as a reminder Geneses 10: 4, 5. Javan. 3120. Strong’s.

Daniel 8: 21. “And the rough goat is the king of Javan: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.”

Daniel 8: 22. “Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, BUT NOT IN HIS POWER.”

After the USA, attacks the ram, after some time, the four notables, will rise to fill the vacuum, but not with the same amount of power that the, USA President had.
After the USA, and UK Alliance, breaks up, i.e. the lion loses his eagle’s wings, there will be a twenty three hundred day, time zone countdown, within which the ‘Divided’ kingdom, lasting for only 42 months, exists and ends along with the time of the end’s time span. See Revelation 13: 1 – 18.

So expect, a one world order government to ensue, and be supported by the Lion, UK, the Bear, Russia, the leopard, France and the fourth beast, a fallen angel, will rise at which time the little horn, Satan, will come onto the scene as in Daniel 7: 8 when he is cast out of Heaven, to earth, in Revelation 12: 7 - 17 after losing the war in Heaven, Satan, pursues God’s children.
Satan, will give power to the fourth beast for 42 months after being thrown out of Heaven, down to Earth. Revelation 13: 1 – 18.

Revelation 12: 9. “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

Daniel 8: 23. “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.”

Daniel 8: 24. “And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and holy people.” U

Witchcraft, named craft will be rife.

Daniel 8: 25. “And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace (prosperity) shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.”

The vision is now named the ‘evening morning’ vision that spans a limited time of twenty three hundred, ereb, meaning, evening, and boqer, meaning, morning.

Daniel 8: 26. “And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.”

Daniel 8: 27. “And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.” Unquote.

What time are we fast approaching?
Can we recall Daniel, chapter 8 where the four beasts are to rise up, then the little horn, rises in verse 9. All the beasts are associated with the little horn, Satan that is to be cast out of heaven with his angels, in Revelation12: 7 to 17.


For those that insist that Daniel 11 is supposedly anything to do with the past then let’s read Daniel 11: 1 to 4 about the political situation in Iran during the time of the ram mentioned in Daniel 8 where we are told that the vision concerns the time of the end in verse 17 placing Daniel 11 within that same period.

Daniel 11: 1. Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

Darius was king over Iraq/Medes and Persia/Iran during the time of Daniel’s vision. Darius was not attacked by Javan Western seafaring nation’s number one king/leader/he goat from the far West.

It is the higher horn that comes up last on the ram, Persia/Iran that is the subject matter of these verses and Javan. 3120.

Daniel 11: 2. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings IN PERSIA; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of JAVAN.

Daniel 11: 3. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

Daniel 11: 4. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Iran has not been broken up or plucked up by others, it is still one nation, for the moment that is.

The pages of Daniel are slowly turning and Daniel 8 is about to be fulfilled when the USA whacks Iran. Looking at the fact that after Daniel was told about the seventy weeks concerning the vision, concerned with the time of the end and as a result of that information Daniel understood the vision as follows. Daniel 10: 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

Also the topography of the Mount of Olives has not changed from before 70 AD or after until now yet according to Zechariah 14 it will be changed on the day of the Lord when the Mount of Olives is cleaved in two and straddling a valley put there by the Lord with the Saints accompanying Him. I think it will be on the day of the LORD that every stone will be thrown down.

[John 8:32]

Just a little thinking here...

Everything in Daniel 8 up to verse 23 is past history,

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Alexander the Great died early (33 yrs), four stood up, his four generals were Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus and Ptolemy. They divided his kingdom but Lysimachus and Cassander were weak and Seleucid and Ptolemy became prominent in history. The Seleucids being the King of the North and the Ptolemys being the King of the South. Alexander did not have a child to succeed him (not in his own power).

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The end of the age. The kingdom that prevailed was the Seleucids which Rome overran and became the King of the North. There have been 6 resurrections of the Holy Roman Empire (9 resurrections in all) with one remaining to occur.

Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Rev 17 the Beast will have the False Prophet backing him doing great signs and wonders including calling fire down from heaven and persecuting the true Church of God.

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Rev 17

The Beast and False Prophet are destroyed at the return of Jesus Christ and He sets up the Kingdom of God on earth...

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The "good news" (gospel) of God's Kingdom ruling on earth...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

[John146]

HIS second coming is concerned with the time of the end as is the abomination of desolation set up.
Matthew 24: 15. “When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:”

There is a sense in which "the time of the end" began long ago if "the time of the end" is equivalent to "the last time". Have you considered the possibility that we should understand "the time of the end" as being the same as "the last time" that John mentioned here:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Since it was already "the last time" in John's day what event was it that brought things into "the last time"? Wouldn't that have been Christ's first coming? Notice that what identified it as being "the last time" was the presence of many antichrists. In order for there to be antichrists, Christ had to come first, right? So, I don't think "the time of the end" necessarily has to only refer to the very last days preceding the return of Christ. I believe "the time of the end", or what John called "the last time", began long ago and is still ongoing today. According to Luke (based on cross referencing Luke 21:20-24 with Matt 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-2), the abomination of desolation had to do with the time when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and destroyed. Well, that is exactly what happened around 70 AD. Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies and the city and temple were destroyed. The destruction of the temple fulfilled the prophecy Jesus gave when He said that no stone of the temple would be left upon another (Matt 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 21:6).

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The book was to be sealed until the time of the end. So, when was it that people began to understand the prophecies contained within the book (which would indicate that it was no longer sealed)? Didn't Jesus expect people to understand the prophecy even back when He referred to it?

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

What Daniel 12:4 indicates is that the prophecies contained within the book of Daniel would be sealed and not understood until "the time of the end". Well, Jesus expected people to understand the prophecy regarding the abomination of desolation a long time ago when He gave His Olivet Discourse. So, it must be that the time of the end had already arrived at that point. There is no basis for thinking that the abomination of desolation can't occur until sometime in the future because the time of the end (supposedly) hasn't arrived yet. I believe I have shown that there is strong evidence to suggest that "the time of the end" not only has arrived but began already long ago.

Understanding the prophecies of the book of Daniel would require the book to be unsealed and would require "the time of the end" to have begun. You claim to understand the prophecies of the book. Therefore, even you must believe we are now in "the time of the end". Yet you try to claim that "the time of the end" has not yet begun and won't begin until sometime in the future. If that's the case then the book of Daniel must still be sealed and no one, including yourself, would be able to understand it yet. So, is the book still sealed or not? If it is then why are you acting as if you understand it? It has to be unsealed first in order for anyone to understand it and it was not to be unsealed until "the time of the end". If "the time of the end" has not yet begun then the book remains sealed and no one can yet understand it. But if you agree that it is already unsealed then wouldn't that mean "the time of the end" has begun rather than not beginning until a future time as you claim?