7 Year Tribulation Challenged

[Vanderhoven7]

There is a sense in which "the time of the end" began long ago if "the time of the end" is equivalent to "the last time". Have you considered the possibility that we should understand "the time of the end" as being the same as "the last time" that John mentioned here:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Since it was already "the last time" in John's day what event was it that brought things into "the last time"? Wouldn't that have been Christ's first coming? Notice that what identified it as being "the last time" was the presence of many antichrists. In order for there to be antichrists, Christ had to come first, right? So, I don't think "the time of the end" necessarily has to only refer to the very last days preceding the return of Christ. I believe "the time of the end", or what John called "the last time", began long ago and is still ongoing today. According to Luke (based on cross referencing Luke 21:20-24 with Matt 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-2), the abomination of desolation had to do with the time when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and destroyed. Well, that is exactly what happened around 70 AD. Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies and the city and temple were destroyed. The destruction of the temple fulfilled the prophecy Jesus gave when He said that no stone of the temple would be left upon another (Matt 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 21:6).

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The book was to be sealed until the time of the end. So, when was it that people began to understand the prophecies contained within the book (which would indicate that it was no longer sealed)? Didn't Jesus expect people to understand the prophecy even back when He referred to it?

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

What Daniel 12:4 indicates is that the prophecies contained within the book of Daniel would be sealed and not understood until "the time of the end". Well, Jesus expected people to understand the prophecy regarding the abomination of desolation a long time ago when He gave His Olivet Discourse. So, it must be that the time of the end had already arrived at that point. There is no basis for thinking that the abomination of desolation can't occur until sometime in the future because the time of the end (supposedly) hasn't arrived yet. I believe I have shown that there is strong evidence to suggest that "the time of the end" not only has arrived but began already long ago.

Understanding the prophecies of the book of Daniel would require the book to be unsealed and would require "the time of the end" to have begun. You claim to understand the prophecies of the book. Therefore, even you must believe we are now in "the time of the end". Yet you try to claim that "the time of the end" has not yet begun and won't begin until sometime in the future. If that's the case then the book of Daniel must still be sealed and no one, including yourself, would be able to understand it yet. So, is the book still sealed or not? If it is then why are you acting as if you understand it? It has to be unsealed first in order for anyone to understand it and it was not to be unsealed until "the time of the end". If "the time of the end" has not yet begun then the book remains sealed and no one can yet understand it. But if you agree that it is already unsealed then wouldn't that mean "the time of the end" has begun rather than not beginning until a future time as you claim?

Excellent post John146

Thank you.

[Prophecy Countdown]

Just a little thinking here...

Everything in Daniel 8 up to verse 23 is past history,

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Alexander the Great died early (33 yrs), four stood up, his four generals were Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus and Ptolemy. They divided his kingdom but Lysimachus and Cassander were weak and Seleucid and Ptolemy became prominent in history. The Seleucids being the King of the North and the Ptolemys being the King of the South. Alexander did not have a child to succeed him (not in his own power).

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The end of the age. The kingdom that prevailed was the Seleucids which Rome overran and became the King of the North. There have been 6 resurrections of the Holy Roman Empire (9 resurrections in all) with one remaining to occur.

Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Rev 17 the Beast will have the False Prophet backing him doing great signs and wonders including calling fire down from heaven and persecuting the true Church of God.

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Rev 17

The Beast and False Prophet are destroyed at the return of Jesus Christ and He sets up the Kingdom of God on earth...

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The "good news" (gospel) of God's Kingdom ruling on earth...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

John8 32
Quote
Just a little thinking here...
Everything in Daniel 8 up to verse 23 is past history,

OK. Let’s think about what the scriptures say compared to John8 32.
This does not cover the whole of Daniel 8 but will concentrate on Daniel 7: 11: and 12 events and bring those same events together in Daniel 8 as concerning the time of the end, culminating on the day of the LORD at resurrection time, ending of the 2300 day vision concerning the 4th beast’s ‘kingdom divided’ also ending after its 42 month existence using Revelation 13. Medo/Iraq Persian/Iranian Empire was around at the silver chest, shoulder, arms period 539 – 331 BC, Greece was around the thighs of brass 331 – 168 BC on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel 2 however the last kingdom is during ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ yet to be established after which God sets up His everlasting kingdom in Daniel 2: 41 – 45 at the end of that 42 month period at the time of four last kings just before and within the 4th beast Empire.

Timing.
In Daniel chapter 8 verses 1 to 14 Daniel saw a vision and said that he wanted to know about that vision he had just seen in verse 15.

Daniel 8: 15. And it came to pass, when I, even I DANIEL HAD SEEN THE VISION, and SOUGHT THE MEANING, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Daniel 8: 16: And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the LAST END of the INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END SHALL BE.

Knowing that Daniel was told, after he saw the vision, in verses 1 to 14 that the vision is concerned with the TIME OF THE END in verse 17 and LAST END concerning the indignation of desolation in verse 19 So it is axiomatic that those verses refer to the future and not the many past ancient Empire times but to a future time during THE FEET OF IRON AND POTTER’S CLAY period mentioned in Daniel 2: 41.

Daniel 2: 41. “And whereas thou sawest THE FEET AND TOES, PART OF POTTER’S CLAY, AND PART OF IRON, THE KINGDOM SHALL BE DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.”
So we have the feet of iron and Potter’s clay period when the kingdom of God is to be set up during the time of 4 kings, depicted as the lion, bear, leopard and 4th beast most terrible in Daniel 7: 4 - 7 followed by the little horn/Satan, rising and joining together in Revelation 13: 1 - 18, by the way it is the same beast that will kill the two witnesses in Daniel 11: 7 until the last trump is blown in Revelation 11: 15 bringing in the Day of the LORD. Within Daniel 8 mention of the he goat from the far West that attacks the ram, after that happens the four kings which are called notables is a repeat of Daniel 7: 4 - 8 because these four kings/notables from Daniel 8: 8 – 9 are followed by the same little horn/Satan that comes up out of one of them so Rev 12 begins followed by Revelation 13: 1 – 8.

Historicists are unable to work out the biblical sequence because they go back from the feet of Iron and Potter’s clay period to an earlier empire age because of a preconceived idea about 70 AD make an un-biblical time error by saying quote that ‘the four notables are supposedly four Generals that rose up after Alexander of the Greek Empire’s age. unquote. How could that be? Did Jesus set up His kingdom during those four generals at the time of the brass thighs? Historicists confuse the four generals with the 4 notables that are the four kings that rise in Daniel 7: 4 – 7, followed by the little horn/Satan that same event is repeated in Daniel 8: 8 –9 followed by the little horn, all these beasts are displayed in Revelation chapters 13: 1 – 18 and many times more in Revelation.

Daniel 2: 44. AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Now we find the kings and absolute proof that during their time God sets up His kingdom, on Earth. Now the Bible has to say that all by itself and does exactly that.

In Daniel 7: 4 - 7 we have four beasts that rise up rise up who are kings according to (Dan7: 17. “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.”
So, we have the kings. Which have been mentioned in (Dan 7: 4–7) The next verse fulfills Daniel 2: 41 to 45 at the feet of iron and Potter’s clay says during the time of these kings God will set up His kingdom and the Saints will have that kingdom forever.
Daniel 7: 18: But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

In Daniel 7: 28 states that, that is the end of the matter.

The whole of chapter 7 is about the time of the end when God sets up His kingdom during theiol, bear, leopard 4th beast kings. Try reading Revelation 13 for proof when this last kingdom has only 42 months of existence.
Gabriel states that he will let Daniel know what shall be in the LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION, which is resentment against the Holy Covenant causing the vile person with that attitude to place the abomination of desolation to pollute the Sanctuary of strength and here is the biblical proof.

The Bible fixes the time span of the ‘abomination that maketh desolate’ at 1290 days.
Daniel 12: 11. “And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.”

Within Matthew 24: 15 we have the abomination of desolation being set up, which is for 1290 days, until verses 29 – 31, when Jesus puts an end to that set up upon HIS second coming unless Mark 13: 20 kicks in.
Mark 13: 20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
We are told, immediately after the tribulation of those days, which is at the finish of the 1290 days or sooner of the abomination of desolation set up Jesus returns.

Matthew 24: 29.IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the abomination of desolation is during the 1290 days or less to the second coming of Christ.

We must not forget the indignation and its connection to the abomination of desolation weakening the strength of the sanctuary by polluting it in Daniel 11: 31.

Daniel 11: 21. And in his estate shall stand up a VILE PERSON, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Again, the word “sacrifice” was added into Daniel 11: 31 as indicated by it being written in italics, so I have un-added it.

We have the abomination that maketh desolate set up in Daniel 11: 31.
Daniel 11: 31. And arms shall stand on his part, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

The abomination of desolation set up, from Daniel 11: 31 will last for no more than 1290 DAYS TO the day JESUS RETURNS TO RAISE THE DEAD. AT THAT TIME, on the day of the LORD, in Daniel 12: 1 – 2, which is the LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION.

Note Matthew 24: 15 we have the abomination of desolation lasting 1290 days ‘AT THAT TIME.’ 1290 days or less, later we will have the resurrection on the day of the LORD immediately after those days according to Matthew 24: 29 – 31 Jesus returns’ that SAME event is here explained again so the time span does not alter from the Matthew 24 description.

Daniel 11: 31. And arms shall stand on his part, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

1290 days later unless Mark 13: 20 kicks in to shorten them.

Daniel 12: 1. AND AT THAT TIME SHALL MICHAEL STAND UP, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. 2. And many of them THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, some to EVERLASTING LIFE, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The same 1290 biblical time span has been emphasized again from Daniel 11: 31 –1290 days or less to Daniel 12: 1 - 3 above, which is about the resurrection event and time span as depicted in Matthew 24: 15 – 1290 days or less to Matthew 24: 29, 30, 31 shown earlier.

Daniel 11: 30. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, AND HAVE INDIGNATION AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31. AND ARMS SHALL STAND ON HIS PART, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY OF STRENGTH, and shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY and THEY SHALL PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.
Knowing the correct time of the vision, we can then understand the explanation of it. But firstly lets note the mention of the indignation associated with placing the abomination of desolation that pollutes the Sanctuary, quoted above in Daniel 31, so lets look at the biblical connection with this time of the event where that indignation against the covenant pollute the Sanctuary that will have to be cleansed.

[Prophecy Countdown]

Now lets deal with the claim made by John1 32 about Daniel 8: 1 to 19 supposedly being about the past.
Daniel has a vision .
This is of course, the explanation of the vision that is concerned with ‘THE TIME OF THE END’ as clearly stated in Daniel 8: 17 by the Angel Gabriel.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Medo/Iraq and Persea/Iran are around today and the vision is about the TIME OF THE END and LAST END according to Gabriel now its about the time of the feet of iron and Potter’s clay, at the feet part of the statue according to Daniel 2: 41 – 45, it is not about the time of the Medes/Iraq or Persia/Iran when their kingdom at the chest, shoulders, arms of silver from 539 – 331 BC get taken over by the Greek Empire at the start of the Greek Empire in 331 BC at the beginning of the thighs of brass metal period to 168 BC where Rome followed in 168 BC – 476 AD Empire Time spans on to the Metal Empire Time Span Statue. The time of the end belongs at the feet of iron and Potters clay period of 42 months, see Revelation 13.

I like to use the original Aramaic name ‘Javan,’ which I have already explained in an earlier post.
Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Javan: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Alexander cannot be connected around the time concerning the 1290 days of the abomination of desolation set up, which when that time is fulfilled brings in the second coming of the Lord at ‘THE FEET OF IRON AND POTTER’S CLAY period as stated in Daniel 2: 41 - 45.
Alexander was around during the ending of the silver shoulders, arms and chest of silver REPRESENTING THE Medo/Persian Empire in 331 BC, which his, Alexander’s kingdom took over in 331 BC and continued until 168 BC until taken over by the Roman Empire until its demise as a one empire world power in 476 AD, did Jesus set up His kingdom 1290 days after any of those historic empires?
It was Rome that attacked Jerusalem and Zechariah 14: 1 - 7 states the Lord will fight that nation on the Day of the Lord But Rome went on for another 406 years and the topography has not changed around the mount of Olives predicted in Zechariah 14: 4 – 5. Proving 70 AD is a dud.

So from that Daniel 7, the overview is also concerned with the time of the end.

Daniel 7: 21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
From Daniel 7: 4 – 7 we have four beasts that rise up followed by the little horn, in verse 8. These same beasts are called the ‘notables’ that rise in Daniel 8: 8 and then followed by the same little horn/Satan in verse 9. They are all together in Revelation 13: 1 – 18 for 42 months.
And Revelation 19: 20, 21, happens to match Daniel 7: 11, 12, where the four king beasts lose their dominions to the Saints in verses 17, 18, 21, 22, 26, 27.
The vision of Daniel 8: 1 – 14 concerns the time of the end.

The lion loses his eagle wings in Daniel 7: 4. Why? The answer follows in Daniel 8: 22.

Daniel 8: 22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, FOUR KINGDOMS shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The following is not acceptable biblically.

John 8: 32.
Alexander the Great died early (33 yrs), four stood up, his four generals were Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus and Ptolemy. They divided his kingdom but Lysimachus and Cassander were weak and Seleucid and Ptolemy became prominent in history. The Seleucids being the King of the North and the Ptolemys being the King of the South. Alexander did not have a child to succeed him (not in his own power).

Daniel 8: The place of the Daily.
11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and THE PLACE OF HIS SANCTUARY WAS CAST DOWN. 12. And an host was given him AGAINST THE DAILY BY REASON OF TRANSGRESSION, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be THE VISION concerning THE DAILY, and THE TRANSGRESSION OF DESOLATION TO GIVE BOTH THE SANCTUARY and the host to be trodden under foot? 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, GABRIEL MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.
We have the same transgression of desolation placed upon the Sanctuary, as is the case in Matthew 24: 15, until verses 29 – 31 when Jesus returns and in Daniel 11: 30 – 31 until the LORD returns In Daniel 12: 1 – 3 resurrection time.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: BUT HE SAID UNTO ME, UNDERSTAND, O SONE OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION. 18. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19.And he said, Behold, I WILL LET THEE KNOW WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.

All of Daniel 8 is future as described earlier in my posts.

[Prophecy Countdown]

There is a sense in which "the time of the end" began long ago if "the time of the end" is equivalent to "the last time". Have you considered the possibility that we should understand "the time of the end" as being the same as "the last time" that John mentioned here:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Since it was already "the last time" in John's day what event was it that brought things into "the last time"? Wouldn't that have been Christ's first coming? Notice that what identified it as being "the last time" was the presence of many antichrists. In order for there to be antichrists, Christ had to come first, right? So, I don't think "the time of the end" necessarily has to only refer to the very last days preceding the return of Christ. I believe "the time of the end", or what John called "the last time", began long ago and is still ongoing today. According to Luke (based on cross referencing Luke 21:20-24 with Matt 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-2), the abomination of desolation had to do with the time when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and destroyed. Well, that is exactly what happened around 70 AD. Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies and the city and temple were destroyed. The destruction of the temple fulfilled the prophecy Jesus gave when He said that no stone of the temple would be left upon another (Matt 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 21:6).

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The book was to be sealed until the time of the end. So, when was it that people began to understand the prophecies contained within the book (which would indicate that it was no longer sealed)? Didn't Jesus expect people to understand the prophecy even back when He referred to it?

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

What Daniel 12:4 indicates is that the prophecies contained within the book of Daniel would be sealed and not understood until "the time of the end". Well, Jesus expected people to understand the prophecy regarding the abomination of desolation a long time ago when He gave His Olivet Discourse. So, it must be that the time of the end had already arrived at that point. There is no basis for thinking that the abomination of desolation can't occur until sometime in the future because the time of the end (supposedly) hasn't arrived yet. I believe I have shown that there is strong evidence to suggest that "the time of the end" not only has arrived but began already long ago.

Understanding the prophecies of the book of Daniel would require the book to be unsealed and would require "the time of the end" to have begun. You claim to understand the prophecies of the book. Therefore, even you must believe we are now in "the time of the end". Yet you try to claim that "the time of the end" has not yet begun and won't begin until sometime in the future. If that's the case then the book of Daniel must still be sealed and no one, including yourself, would be able to understand it yet. So, is the book still sealed or not? If it is then why are you acting as if you understand it? It has to be unsealed first in order for anyone to understand it and it was not to be unsealed until "the time of the end". If "the time of the end" has not yet begun then the book remains sealed and no one can yet understand it. But if you agree that it is already unsealed then wouldn't that mean "the time of the end" has begun rather than not beginning until a future time as you claim?

Capitals used for emphasis only.

(Dan 8:13.) Pegs the time span of the vision to around 2300 days.
Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be THE VISION concerning the daily and THE TRANSGRESSION OF DESOLATION, to give both the SANCTUARY and the host to be trodden under foot? 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 8 pegs the time of the vision.
Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

The indignation is mentioned (Dan 8:19)

Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

The above sounds complicated.
A vision is to be 2300 days long, speaks of the transgression of desolation, Sanctuary trodden underfoot(Dan 8:13) vision to be at the Time Of The End (Dan 8:17) the indignation’s LAST END (Dan 8: 19)

Time span of the vision.
---------------------------------------------------------------------2300 days -------------------------------------------------------------------- Resurrection

Prophecy Countdown, partially quoted by John146.

HIS second coming is concerned with the time of the end as is the abomination of desolation set up.
Matthew 24: 15. “When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” unquote.

Jesus did not say the words quote. “(whoso readeth, let him understand.)” because they are written within parenthesis, which is a digretion, an afterthought, an addition.
Let me place the more detailed answer left out and include a few more biblical facts.

HIS second coming is concerned with the time of the end as is the abomination of desolation set up for 1290 days. The reason I can understand this is because Prayerfully asking for understanding works and it helps that the Bible states it clearly, as follows.

Daniel 12: 11 states that the ‘ABOMINATION OF DESOALTION SET UP’ will last for ‘1290 days.’ The word ‘sacrifice,’ written in italics indicating it to have been added, as an afterthought, does not belong to the biblical ‘TIME OF THE END’ to which Matthew 24 is a part. The sacrifice of the Lamb occurred during the Roman Empire at the LEGS OF IRON and certainly not during THE TIME OF THE END. How do I know that it concerns the time of the end? The aswer is simple in that the 1290 days or less, our LORD Jesus will return and raise HIS people as these following verses make clear.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, THERE SHALL BE A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.

The LORD will shorten those 1290 days if HE deems it necessary.
Mark 13: 20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

From Matthew 24 verse 15 we have a set up named the abomination of desolation. This set up concerning a future Temple will be for no more than 1290 days, until verses 29 – 31 are reached, unless Mark 13: 20 kicks in to shorten that time span. Now If Jesus is to return then it is at the end of THE TIME OF THE END, a 2300 day period, as we shall see clearly when we get to the verse concerned.

Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16.Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Biblical summery so far.
So far using the time span stipulated in Daniel 12: 11. we have 1290 days from (Matt 24:15) or fewer days, bearing in mind Mark 13: 20, we have the second coming of Christ on the day of the LORD ‘IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS’ in Matthew 24: 29, 30, 31.

Matthew 24: 29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Biblical summery so far. A Time span. Please note that I use 3 open books that tell me about the closed book of Daniel
Daniel 12: 11. Matthew 24: 15. second coming 1290 days later (Mark13:20) or less to (Matthew 24: 15 - 29 - 31.

We can use the same mathematical equation of ‘1290 days’ from the sealed book of (Dan12:11) and apply the same event concerning the 1290 days applicable to the abomination of desolation set up’s time span through to the second coming, thanks to the open book of (Matt 24: 15 – 29, 30, 31.) and Mark 13: 20.

Daniel 11: 21. And in his estate shall stand up a VILE PERSON, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Daniel 11 is a progression from Daniel 8 where the abomination is first mentioned in. (Dan 8:19.) “And he said, Behold, I will make thee know WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.”

Again, the word “sacrifice” was added into (Dan 11:31) as indicated by it being written in italics, so I have un-added it.

The place of the daily also known as the ‘outer court’ of the Temple. Is that the place where the statue of the beast will stand in place of the Holy Covenant?
Daniel 11: 31. And arms shall stand on his part, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and SHALL TAKE AWAY THE DAILY and THEY SHALL PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

Revelation. 13: 15. And he had power to give life unto THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST, that the IMAGE OF THE BEAST SHOULD BOTH SPEAK, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Keeping (Matt 24:15 to verses 29 – 31) in mind with the time span (1290days) of the abomination of desolation set up, stated in (Dan12:11) we can progress.
The abomination of desolation set up is mentioned agin in Daniel 11: 31 to which we now understand has no more than (1290 days) to its end when Jesus returns to raise the dead, as we now know on the great day of the LORD, as stated in (Dan 12: 1-2) as ‘AT THAT TIME.’

If we look into the open book of (Rev 20: 15) we can understand about those words ‘WRITTEN IN THE BOOK’ mentioned in the closed book of (Dan 12:1). Those written in the book of life will be raised, however those that are not, are to be raised to shame and everlasting contempt and doomed. Open book, Revelation 20: 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So from an open book the Prophet John tells us about Daniel by thye same event,

Daniel 12: 1. AND AT THAT TIME SHALL MICHAEL STAND UP, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. 2. And many of them THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, some to EVERLASTING LIFE, and SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.

[Prophecy Countdown]

Following through these complex scriptures from a closed book of Daniel, makes sense by using complimentary open books, allowing for the deciphering of Daniel by Bible Prophets of open books. We are looking for patterns and parallels enabling this to be accomplished and an enormous amount of help from our dear Comforter the Holy Spirit, amen.

What will be done to the Sanctuary when the Lord returns after the time of the end finishes on the 2300th day at even time? The answer to that is made clear in Daniel.

Daniel 8:13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be THE VISION concerning THE DAILY, and THE TRANSGRESSION OF DESOLATION, to give both THE SANCTUARY AND THE HOST TO BE TRODDEN UNDER FOOT?

Daniel 8:14. And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days; THEN THE SANCTUARY SHALL BE CLEANSED.

Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Blending The SAME TIME from (Dan 8:16) with (Matt 24: 2) we get the following open book input.
Matthew 24: 2. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE? AND WHAT shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD?

Biblcal Summery so far. I am using the open books of (Rev 20:15) and (Matt 24:15) to open our understanding of the closed book of (Dan 12:1-3) and (Mark 13: 20.)
The question in (Matt 24:2) sets the TIME OF events from (Matt24:15) through to the last end (Dan 8:17,19) of the the time of the end for the indignation’s last end on the last day, concerning the abomination (Dan 24:15)1290th day or maybe less to the signs of His second coming at the Last End.
(Dan 11:31) concerning the set up of the abomination of desolation through no more than 1290 days until (Dan 12: 1 – 3) being 1290 days. (Matt 24.15) concerns the same abomination of desolation through no more than those 1290 days or less (Mark 13:20) to reach (Matt 24:29,30, 31) concerning the second coming of our dear LORD, to raise the dead written in the book of life (Dan12:1–3) verified by Rev 20:15. “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

I am not force reading any of this, it is the scriptures talking to us. Does anyone find this interesting? I have been studying this for 38 years, first as a partial preterist then realised from the scriptures that these things were not of the past. I still feel excited and enthusiastic about Eschatology. Our future in HIS hands, amen.

It is this vile person mentioned earlier and his army that will be responsible for the abomination of desolation being placed on the Temple.
By the way chittim is now called Cyprus where I believe is berthed an American war fleet it maybe the 3rd fleet, but I’m not too sure which fleet. Chittim was named after Javan’s son Kittim. See (Gen10: 4-5.)

Daniel 11: 21. And in his estate shall stand up a VILE PERSON, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

They shall take away the place of the daily.

Daniel 11: 30. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore HE SHALL BE GRIEVED, and return, and HAVE INDIGNATION AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31. And ARMS SHALL STAND ON HIS PART, AND THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily AND THEY SHALL PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

Biblical Summery so far.
So far, we have the indignation (Dan 8:19) the vile person (Dan 11:21) having indignation against the Holy Covenant (Dan 11:30) being the instigator behind placing the abomination of desolation upon the Temple (Dan 11:31) which we know lasts 1290 days (Dan 12:11) 1290 days within that time period of 2300 Evening Morning Vision (Dan 8:13) that is the time span of the vision in Daniel 8 verse 13 when completed ushers in the second coming.

I have quoted from the scriptures, which should be the final decisive word on this matter. The clear biblical answers cannot be tampered with or ignored and should be a watchman’s warnings to those that do not understand.

Prophecy through the word of God has been rejected before, by His own people, there is nothing new about that attitude by churches today and they do that from a perspective of not even knowing the testimony of Jesus.

Isaiah 30: 10. Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: 11. Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

2 Timothy2: 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

(1 John 2: 18.) John saw antichrists and the Antichrist.
The closed book of (Daniel 8:9) can be made clear by using the open book of Revelation 12: 1 – 6, written by the same Prophet John that wrote the open book of (1 John 2:15) which is an open book I use to decifer Daniel’s sealed book when we read (1 John 2: 28) it comes to light.
Devils, evil spirits demons Possessed many people at the time of Christ and after.

Daniel 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth A LITTLE HORN, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and IT CAST DOWN some OF THE HOSTAND OF THE STARS TO THE GROUND, and stamped upon them

From the sealed book of Daniel we use the open book of Revelation. Stars means angels in this case. See the open book (Rev 1: 20) to explain the sealed book of (Daniel 8:9.) about the stars.

Revelation 1: 20. The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

We are now given the identity of the LITTLE HORN AS SATAN by that very act of casting angels down to Earth, which began from baby Jesus and they were there through the time of Jesus where evil spirits possessed many people.

This is what the same St John saw and wrote in Revelation later identifying the little horn as Satan.

Revelation 12: 1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2.And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4. And HIS TAIL DREW THE THIRD PART OF THE STARS OF HEAVEN, and DID CAST THEM TO THE EARTH: and THE DRAGON stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5. And she brought forth a MAN CHILD, WHO WAS TO RULE ALL NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Note of intererest.
The term ‘rod of iron’ is also used in (Rev 2: 26 – 27. 19: 15.) concerning the war against the lion, leoprad, 4th beast’s worldly armies during the Armageddon battle after the wedding supper see (Rev 19:1–21) where the beast is killed and Satan is to be imprisoned for 1000 years in
(Rev 20:1–3) by the angel Abaddon/Apollyon, meaning Destroyer who was given the key to the bottomless pit in (Rev 9: 1) during trumpet 5 and woe number One, to which ‘he is king over the bootomless pit,’ 1 See Revelation (9:1–21) about the torment in store for the wicked.

So we have John stating that he saw the Antichrist and antichrists and yes it was Satan/little horn that cast them down to the Earth mentioned in (Dan 8:10) and (Rev 12:–5) so I am not surprised that John would have seen them during that time after the outpouring of the early rain of the Holy Spirit, mentioned in (Joel 2:23)

Lets look at the TIME OF context from John’s words.
1 John 2: 18. “Little children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME.”

This following puts the time at the time of the second coming, in Matt 24:3.” And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1 John 2: 28. And now, little children, abide in him; that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before HIM AT HIS COMING.

John contemplated the second coming of Christ during his lifetime (1 John 2: 18) and John states that in (1 John 2:28) and he knew it would be preceded by false christs and Prophets, stated in Matt24: 4, 11). It was the Disciples that asked Jesus about this subject in Matthew 24: 3. “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”

So we have John 2: 18, contemplating quote. WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME’. However John followed by mentioning THE LORD’S SECOND COMING in verse 28, which clearly indicates that John was referring to the second coming of the Christ which is at THE TIME OF THE END, 2300 days vision in (Dan 8: 17) a time yet to come, yes John thought Jesus was to return during his lifetime, as have many generations have hoped for since then. Did Jesus return to set up His everlasting kingdom during John’s lifetime? John assciated that event with the LAST TIME.
That TIME OF association is inline with the time of the indignation concerning the 2300 evening morning vision of Daniel 8: 19. “And he said, Behold, I will make thee know WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR T THE TIME APPONTED THE END shall be.”

Simply put at the end of that indignation period the LAST END of that hideous abomination of desolation set up for on the 1290th day or less comes to its last end, will bring about the second coming of the Christ. As I have explained in (Dan 11:21) where the vile person has an indignation against the Holy Covenant in Daniel 11: 30 and with his army places the abomination upon the Temple in Daniel 11: 31 which in (Dan 11:36) ‘shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished’ The idignation concerns the abomination of desol;ation at the time of the end and last end mentioned at the time of the 2300 evening morning vision when the signd occr at HIS coming on the day of the LORD.

What didn’t we have in 70 AD? The Armageddon war mentioned in Revelation 19: 10 – 21, mathcing Daniel 7: 11, 12, where the false prophet and 4th beast are to be killed in Revelation 19: 20 and the remnant beasts lion, bear, leopard killed by the sword in Revelation 19: 21, after the 4th beast in Revelation 19:19, 20 on the day of the LORD, judgment day? Was Satan bound for a thousand years in Revelation 20: 1 – 3 in 70 AD?

If and I mean IF, 70 AD was the supposed day of the LORD why was Satan not released after a thousand years later in 1070 AD and killed?

[Prophecy Countdown]

Lets use the open book in (1 Cor15:51) to understand (Dan12: 1)
1 Corinthians 15: 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

Daniel 12: 1. And AT THAT TIME MICHAEL SHALL STAND UP, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Who do, Vanderhoven, Digdeep, John 1 46, or John 8 31, think the four beasts represent and the 4th beast?

We are still waiting for Armageddon, did we see the seven trumpet period and 3 woes or seven bowls of the wrath of God or the seven last plagues or Jesus rescue Jerusalem by attacking those Gentile nations that will attack her? Or Abaddon/Apollyon, torment those with the mark of the beast for 5 months? Or Jesus cleaving in two the Mount of Olives East and West that will straddle a valley put there by the foot of the LORD from North to South changing the topography of that place in 70 AD? That event was propheside to occur ON THE DAY OF THE LORD mentioned in Zechariah 14? Did we see them in Jeruslaem shouting ‘blessed is HE that cometh in the name of the LORD’ mentioned in Matthew 23: 39?
Are we realising the benefits promesed in 1 Corinthians 15: 49 – 57, by our the Lord at His second coming on the day of the Lord?
There are so many holes in that appallingl 70 AD non-biblical heressy, you could drive 10 ton trucks through it.

This is nothing like His first coming HE was born through Mary a virgin birth because Jesus had already been and gone up to Heaven when John wrote about Him. That simple time factor is why John expected the second coming, in his lifetime .
John wrote . John 2: 23. And now, little children, ABIDE IN HIM; THAT WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed BEFORE HIM AT HIS COMING.

This was foretold in Isaiah 53: 1 – 12 hundreds of years earlier.

Isaiah 53: 7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought AS A LAMB TO THE SLAUGHTER, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so HE OPENETH NOT HIS MOUTH.

Isaiah 53: 12. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, AND MADE INTERSESSION FOR THE TRANSGRESSORS.

The open book of 1 John 2: 18, 28, establishes the result of the little horn that cast his evil angels out of Heaven, at the time of baby Jesus, as recorded in the closed book of Daniel 8: 10, the little horn can be identified as the dragon/Satan that did that feit in another open book called Revelation 12: 1 – 6. that’s two open books establishing the sealed book of Daniel.

The second coming which John had indicated in 2 John 2: 18, 28.
1 John 2: 18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1John 2: 28. And now, little children, ABIDE IN HIM; THAT WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed BEFORE HIM AT HIS COMING.
So all that proves is John expacted Jesus to return after the counterfeit. John was looking forward to the second coming. I am amazed that historicists cannot work that out.

2 Corinthians 11: 12. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Open books. 2 Corinthians 11: 12 – 15 Correlates with Matthew 24: 3, 4.

[Prophecy Countdown]

John 1 46, states a misunderstanding from a preconceived idea by not comparing 1 John 2: 18 to the clear TIME OF follow up in John 2: 28. which Jesus associated with the time after 1290 days or maybe less according to (Mark13:20) from the set up of the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24: verse 15 of no more than 1290 days or less if necessary for the elects sake to His seconnd coming quote Immediately after the tribulation of those days. Unquote in Matt24:29-31)
Matthew 24: 29-31 an abomination spoken of in…. Daniel 8: 11. “Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.”
Then again in Daniel 12: 11 the abomination of desolation period of 1290 days which ends when Jesus appears at HIS second coming in Matthew 24: 29 – 31, which is repeated in Daniel 11: 31 when the abomination is set up for 1290 days until Jesus at His second coming at the end or lesss than the 1290 days later, HE raises the dead in Daniel 12: 1 - 3 those Bible verses and many more have proven John146, along with John 8 32, Vanderhoven and Digdeep to be in error.

This same St John the Prophet also wrote the following years later from the prison of Patmos.
Revelation 22: 20. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21.. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Could it be that John wrote that later than 70 AD?

Zechariah 14: is an open book which has a lot to say about THE DAY OF THE LORD proving histricists have made and continue to make biblical error after biblical error because they are unable to bring the verses from the Prophets together, and Zechariah knocks the 70 AD out of the area of biblical truth as it should.

Zechariah 14:1. Behold, THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14: 2. For I WILL GATHER ALL THE NATIONS TOGETHER AGAINST JERUSALEM to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

John146
“Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies and the city and temple were destroyed.”
“The destruction of the temple fulfilled the prophecy Jesus gave when He said that no stone of the temple would be left upon another (Matt 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 21:6).)

Did Jesus attack the Roman Empire on the day of the LORD that was supposedly in 70 AD? NO! Because The Roman Empire went on until 467 AD another 406 years at the legs of iron period!

Zechariah 14: 3. THEN SHALLTHE LORD GO FORTH, AND FIGHT AGAINST THOSE NATIONS, as when he fought IN THAT DAY OF BATTLE.

I’m sorry, did I miss something here? When we are told it is supposed to be on that day of the Lord and in that day HE will fight against those nations and that the LORD shall change the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14: 3. And cleave in two the Mount of Olives to the North and West and with His foot force out a valley East and West that the Mount will straddle, then I must ask preterists why has the topography not been changed? It is still the same, from before and after 70 AD, which is biblical evidence absolute that 70 AD was not the day of judgment on the day of the LORD. Ipso facto from Zechariah 14 an open book.

There were plenty of stones upon stones left THERE on that site and the original stones upon stones of the foundation wall are still there.

Here is where the stones will all be cast down on the day of the LORD the day of battle when Jesus does it Himself whilst the Saints are with HIM means it’s after the resurrection of course on the day of the LORD in Zechariah 14: 4.

Zechariah 14: 4. AND HIS FEET SHALL STAND IN THAT DAY upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and THE MOUNT OF OLIVES SHALL CLEAVE IN THE MIDST thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD MY GODSHALL COME, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.

Zechariah 14: 6. And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LIGT SHALL NOT BE CLEAR, nor DARK:

Zechariah 14: 7. But IT SHALL BE ONE DAY which SHALL BE KNOWN TO THE LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14: 8. And it shall be IN THAT DAY, that LIVING WATERS SHALL GO FROM JERUSALEM; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: IN SUMMER AND IN WINTER IT SHALL BE.

Zechariah 14: 9. And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: IN THAT DAY shall there be ONE LORD, and HIS NAME ONE.
(Zechariah 14: 8, 9,) did not happen in 70 AD because trumpet 7 has not sounded yet where 1 Corinthians 15 49 – 57 begins.

Zechariah 14: 10. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.

Zechariah 14: 11. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Zechariah 14: 12. And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD WILL SMITE ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE FOUGHT AGAINST JERUSALEM; THERE FLESH SHALL CONSUME AWAY WHILE THEY STAND UPON THEIR FEET, AND THEIR EYES SHALL CONSUME AWAY IN THEIR HOLES, AND THEIR TONGUES SHALL CONSUME AWAY IN THEIR MOUTH.

Verse 12 certainly did not happen in 70 AD.

Zechariah 14: 13. And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Zechariah 14: 14. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

John1:46. quote.
“The book was to be sealed until the time of the end. So, when was it that people began to understand the prophecies contained within the book (which would indicate that it was no longer sealed)? Didn't Jesus expect people to understand the prophecy even back when He referred to it?”

Daniel 12:4 indicates that the prophecies contained within the book of Daniel would be sealed and not understood until "the time of the end". Well, Jesus expected people to understand the prophecy regarding the abomination of desolation a long time ago when He gave His Olivet Discourse. So, it must be that the time of the end had already arrived at that point. There is no basis for thinking that the abomination of desolation can't occur until sometime in the future because the time of the end (supposedly) hasn't arrived yet. I believe I have shown that there is strong evidence to suggest that "the time of the end" not only has arrived but began already long ago. Understanding the prophecies of the book of Daniel would require the book to be unsealed and would require "the time of the end" to have begun.”

Historicists and that 70 AD time distorting theory have been around for a long time and within the King James Version many words were added with that historic bent, however we can be thankful, at least that the added words were written within parenthesis or in italics as is the case with the word (sacrifice) within the book of Daniel, showing the fact of its addition.
When the Ancient Dead Sea Scrolls were found in 1947 and more latter in 1957 where the added word ‘sacrifice’ was not found written in these following verses. Daniel 8: 11, 12, 13, Daniel 11: 31. Daniel 12: 11.
The only place the word sacrifice was found, was in Daniel 9: 27, therefore not written within parenthesis or in italics as should be expected.

John1:46 makes a fundamental error (underlined in his quote above) by placing biblical importance on the added words written in (Mat24:15) within parenthesis as follows. “(whoso readeth, let him understand ).” From those added words John1:46 says. (which would indicate that it was no longer sealed)? So John’s argument is based on something Jesus never said therefore is without any biblical foundation.

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The Disciples and other Prophets from many OPEN BOOKS especially Revelation are full of information deciphering Daniel.
Within the sealed book of Daniel knowledge has increased greatly.
Daniel 12: 4. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: MANY SHALL RUN TO AND FRO, AND KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED.
There will come a time when we see these things occur we will be able to use the scriptures telling us of the nest prophetic event during the 2300 evening morning period, but not the wicked.
Daniel 11: 10. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; BUT THE WICKED SHALL DO WICKEDLY: AND NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND; BUT THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND.

What is it that the wicked will not understand?
Daniel 12: “And FROM THE TIME THE DAILY SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS”.

John 1 46.
You claim to understand the prophecies of the book.

I have never claimed any such thing.

John146.
Therefore, even you must believe we are now in "the time of the end".
Yet you try to claim that "the time of the end" has not yet begun and won't begin until sometime in the future.
If "the time of the end" has not yet begun then the book remains sealed and no one can yet understand it.
If that's the case then the book of Daniel must still be sealed and no one, including yourself, would be able to understand it yet.
So, is the book still sealed or not? If it is then why are you acting as if you understand it?
If "the time of the end" has not yet begun then the book remains sealed and no one can yet understand it.

Daniel 12: 4. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: MANY SHALL RUN TO AND FRO, AND KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED.

I have presented scripture from open books that help us understand the sealed book of Daniel.

Daniel never had Revelation (I would say written after 70 AD) that demystifies a little some of Daniel for our knowledge to be increased before the time of the end as made clear in Daniel 12: 4. We have Revelation that describes Daniel also the following indicates an important time span just before the second coming from Matthew 24: 15 there is to be no longer than 1290 days until verse 29-31. That is what the Bible states now if that 70 AD supposedly was the day of judgment on the day of the LORD which occurs at trumpet seven, what happened to 1 Corinthians 15: 49 – 57? And Zechariah 14: 3. “THEN SHALL THE LORD GO FORTH AND, FIGHT AGAINST THOSE NATIONS, , as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And HIS FEET SHALL STAND IN THAT DAY UPON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and THE MOUNT OF OLIVES SHALL CLEAVE IN THE MIDST THEREOF TOWARD THE EAST AND TOWARD THE WEST, and there shall be A VERY GREAT VALLEY; AND HALF THE OF THE MOUNTAIN SHALL REMOVE TOWARD THE NORTH, AND HALF TOWARD THE SOUTH.

John 1: 46.
If "the time of the end" has not yet begun then the book remains sealed and no one can yet understand it.

Not so, let me remind you again how knowledge of Daniel is possible biblically TO GROW IN KNOWLEDGE up to the time of the end.
Here it is the verse that answers your repeated question!

Daniel 12: 4. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: MANY SHALL RUN TO AND FRO, AND KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED.

Knowledge of Daniel has increased, as it should, to the time of the end AND HOW LONG WILL THESE EVENTS LAST WITHIN THE 2300 DAYS?
As long as the 4th beast power exists and that is for 42 months stated in. Revelation 13: 4.

Revelation 13: 4. And they worshipped the DRAGON WHICH GAVE POWER UNTO THE BEAST AND THEY WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; AND POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO CONTINUE FORTY and TWO MONTHS.

That’s 3½ years from Revelation and the same time spans end of 3½ years will finish it.

From the open book of Revelation, we get more knowledge of the sealed book of Daniel to the time of the end.

Daniel 12: 7. “Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

Daniel 12: 8. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, HOW LONG shall it be to THE END OF THESE WONDERS?

Daniel 12: 9. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when HE held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and SWARE BY HIM THAT LIVETH FOR EVER THAT it shall be FOR A TIME, TIMES, AND AN HALF; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE things SHALL BE FINISHED.

How come, if 70 AD was the supposed date of the judgment, what happened to the promise in verse 7 that ALL these things shall be finished?

[John146]

PC, you are way too long-winded for me (and probably everyone else as well). You have to learn to be more succinct. Also, you seem to think that I believe the judgment took place in 70 AD. I never said that. I'm not a preterist just because I believe a couple things already occurred that you don't believe have occurred yet. I believe the resurrection of the dead and the judgment are yet future. All I'm saying is that the destruction of the city and temple that is alluded to in Daniel 9:26 and in the Olivet Discourse already occurred in 70 AD. I'm not saying that Christ's second coming, the resurrection of the dead or the judgment happened at that time. So, your inability to understand what others are saying combined with the fact that you are too long-winded has made me decide that we should just agree to disagree.

[Diggindeeper]

PC, you are way too long-winded for me (and probably everyone else as well). You have to learn to be more succinct. Also, you seem to think that I believe the judgment took place in 70 AD. I never said that. I'm not a preterist just because I believe a couple things already occurred that you don't believe have occurred yet. I believe the resurrection of the dead and the judgment are yet future. All I'm saying is that the destruction of the city and temple that is alluded to in Daniel 9:26 and in the Olivet Discourse already occurred in 70 AD. I'm not saying that Christ's second coming, the resurrection of the dead or the judgment happened at that time. So, your inability to understand what others are saying combined with the fact that you are too long-winded has made me decide that we should just agree to disagree.

Count me with you, John146.

I don't usually bother to read super-long posts. To me, they seem more like a 'rant' than a reasonable reply.
And they quote half the Bible in one long post, as if to insinuate that I've never read it. But I have, and probably for years before the poster was even born....

Also, I take my stand alongside you in how you believe. If that labels me a 'partial preterist', then so be it. But I do believe as you do, quoted in your post here.....

[Prophecy Countdown]

John 1: 46.
PC, you are way too long-winded for me (and probably everyone else as well). You have to learn to be more succinct. Also, you seem to think that I believe the judgment took place in 70 AD. I never said that. I'm not a preterist just because I believe a couple things already occurred that you don't believe have occurred yet. I believe the resurrection of the dead and the judgment are yet future. All I'm saying is that the destruction of the city and temple that is alluded to in Daniel 9:26 and in the Olivet Discourse already occurred in 70 AD. I'm not saying that Christ's second coming, the resurrection of the dead or the judgment happened at that time. So, your inability to understand what others are saying combined with the fact that you are too long-winded has made me decide that we should just agree to disagree.

Digdeeper Count me with you, John146.

I don't usually bother to read super-long posts. To me, they seem more like a 'rant' than a reasonable reply.
And they quote half the Bible in one long post, as if to insinuate that I've never read it. But I have, and probably for years before the poster was even born....

Also, I take my stand alongside you in how you believe. If that labels me a 'partial preterist', then so be it. But I do believe as you do, quoted in your post here…..

John1: 46.
Also, you seem to think that I believe the judgment took place in 70 AD. I never said that. I'm not a preterist just because I believe a couple things already occurred that you don't believe have occurred yet. I believe the resurrection of the dead and the judgment are yet future. All I'm saying is that the destruction of the city and temple that is alluded to in Daniel 9:26 and in the Olivet Discourse already occurred in 70 AD.

Dear John1: 46, it is impossible biblically to believe that the destruction of the Temple that left many stones upon stones upon stones within the foundation wall, which is the opposite result to that which Jesus said would happen in Matthew 24: ? Are you and Digdeeper saying that the Creator of this universe, that knows every hair upon our heads, can’t count a few stones properly? It sounds very much like you both are.

Matthew 24: 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, THERE SHALL NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, THAT SHALL NOT BE TROWN DOWN. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, TELL US WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE? AND WHAT shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND END OF THE WORLD?

Daniel 12: 11: And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be A THOUSAND TEO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.

Matthew 24: 15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24: 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

1290 days later or shorter, we will see the signs of HIS coming in the clouds to gather his elect.

Matthew 24: 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Matthew 24: 28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will THE EAGLES BE GATHERED TOGETHER.

Matthew 24: 29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Please note verse 28. ‘For wheresoever the carcase is, there will THE EAGLES BE GATHERED TOGETHER.’and compare Revelation 19: where we have the wedding supper, which is the first thing that happens after the resurrection then, after verse 10 we will get ready for the Armageddon battle on the same day of the Lord.

Revelation 19: 17. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, SAYING TO THE FOWLS THAT FLY IN THE MIDST OF HEAVEN, COME AND GATHER YOURSELVES TOGETHER UNTO THE SUPPER OF THE GREAT GOD;

Revelation 19: 18. THAT YE MAY EAT THE FLESH OF KINGS, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. Revelation 19: 19. AND I SAW TRHE BEAST, and THE KINGS OF THE EARTH, AND THEIR ARMIES, GATHERED TOGETHER TO MAKE WAR against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19: 20. And THE BEAST WAS TAKEN, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These BOTH WERE CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone.
Revelation 19: 21. And THE REMNANT WERE SLAIN WITH THE SWORD of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

70 AD DOES NOT FIT INTO MATTHEW 24. Revelation 19 does along with Revelation 11: which readers can read and see for themselves.

The judgement will take place on the great day of the LORD at His second coming according to the scriptures to which John 1: 46, Digdeeper, Vanderhoven. John 1: 32 stand against.

The harlot of Revelation 17 is identified as Jerusalem Israel in Ezekiel 16: 1 – 63.
That being done we see her destruction within on hour.

Revelation 18: 16. And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Revelation 18: 17. For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Revelation 18: 18. AND CRIED WHEN THEY SAW THE SMOKE OF HER BURNING, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Some claim that the harlot is Rome but Jews would not put dust on their heads over Rome burning.

Revelation 18: 19. AND THEY CAST DUST ON THEIR HEADS, and CRIED WEEPING and WAILING, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for IN ONE HOUR is she made desolate.

Revelation 18: 20. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Revelation 18: 21. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Revelation 18: 22. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Revelation 18: 23. And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 18: 24. And IN HER WAS FOUND THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS, AND OF THE SAINTS, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

70 AD cannot be judgment day against Jerusalem too many things did not occur.

Zechariah 14: 1. Behold, THE DAY OF THE LORD COMETH, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14: 2. For I WILL GATHER ALL NATIONS AGAINST JERUSALEM TO BATTLE; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14: 3. THEN SHALL THE LORD GO FORTH, AND FIGHT AGAINST THOSE NATIONS, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Jesus did not attack the Roman Empire on the day of the LORD, because 70 AD was not the right time for the prophecy, therefore for the following to occur.
Zechariah 14: 4. AND HIS FEET SHALL STAND IN THAT DAY UPON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and THE MOUNT OF OLIVES SHALL CLEAVE IN THE MIDST THEREOF TOWARDS THE EAST AND TOWAED THE WEST, and there shall be a VERY GREAT VALLEY; and HALF THE MOUNTAIN SHALL REMOVE TOWARD THE NORTH, and HALF OF IT TOWARD THE SOUTH.

The Mount of Olives has not been changed either before or after 70 AD. So Vanderhoven, John 1: 32, John 1: 46 and Digdeep, who tends to follow them all on a whim have all been beaten from the Bible only they can’t get away from that fact.

ALL THE SAINTS WILL COME WITH HIM, NOT JUST SOME, ALL OF THEM. That has to be after the resurrection.

Zechariah 14: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: AND THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.

Zechariah 14: 6.
And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that THELIGHT SHALL NOT BE CLEAR, nor DARK:

Zechariah 14: 7. But IT SHALL BE ONE DAY which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zechariah 14: 8. And it shall be IN THAT DAY, that LIVING WATERS SHALL GO OUT FROM JERUSALEM; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

John 1: 46.
All I'm saying is that the destruction of the city and temple that is alluded to in Daniel 9:26 and in the Olivet Discourse already occurred in 70 AD.

Take another look at Zechariah 14, which proves that belief unbiblical. Try and focus on the question concerning His second coming associated with the stone being thrown down which was not the case in 70 AD but will be on the day of the LORD in Zechariah 14.

John1: 46. So, your inability to understand what others are saying combined with the fact that you are too long-winded has made me decide that we should just agree to disagree.

John1: 46.
All I'm saying is that the destruction of the city and temple that is alluded to in Daniel 9:26 and in the Olivet Discourse already occurred in 70 AD.

It’s impossible that Daniel 9: 26 supposedly occurred during 70 AD here is what the Bible says.

The time of the vision concerns ‘the time of the end’ according to Gabriel in Daniel 8: verse 17, a 2300 day period verse 14 ending at the second coming on the day of the Lord, yet Daniel stated that he did not understand the vision.
Daniel 8: 26. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Daniel 8: 27. And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I WAS ASTONISHED AT THE VISION, BUT NONE UNDERSTOOD it.

So what does Gabriel do? Gabriel turns up to help him understand so that he can consider the vision, that is the same vision that we were told concerns the time of the end, which is not about the crucifixion during the Roman Empire time span of the legs of iron.

Daniel 9: 22. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I AM NOW COME FORTH TO GIVE THE SKILL AND UNDERSTANDING

Daniel 9: 23. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: THEREFORE UNDERSTAND THE MATTER, AND CONSIDER THE VISION.

What was the result of Daniel being told about the vision in verses 24 – 27? Daniel understood the vision and the time of it.

Daniel 10: 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

The vision’s time was set by Gabriel at the time of the end containing the 4th beast kingdom in Revelation 13: 1 – 18 where the beast is to be killed in Revelation 19: 20, 21 when Jesus comes back to Earth with the Saints as depicted in Zechariah 14: 5. “And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and THE LORD SHALL COME, and ALL THE STAINTS WITH THEE.

Zechariah 14: 9. And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: IN THAT DAY SHALL THERE BE ONE LORD, AND HIS NAME ONE.

It’s a bit late to quote ‘beg to differ’ when you have the Bible to thank for dealing with your incorrect assumptions. However for your personal remarks and those from Digdeep, about me. I forgive you both and pray that our LORD bless you John1: 46, Digdeep, Vanderhoven, DurbanDude and John 1: 32 with understanding. Amen.

Digdeep quote.
And they quote half the Bible in one long post, as if to insinuate that I've never read it.

That is such an exaggeration if you think that that’s half the Bible that I quoted, then you haven’t read that much of it have you.

Digdeep But I have, and probably for years before the poster was even born….

How wrong you are in your assumptions about my age.

[Diggindeeper]

Prophecy Countdown, I'm trying to tell you, in a nice way, that super long, book length posts do not get read!

How can I get through to you???

[Cyberseeker]

PC, you are way too long-winded for me (and probably everyone else as well).

I belonged to a forum once where a member tried to cut 'n paste the the entire Bible. Needless to say the Mods intercepted and locked him in the cooler for a time. (lol)

[Prophecy Countdown]

[QUOTE]Digdeep.
ProphecyCountdown, I’m trying to tell you, in a nice way, that super long, book length posts do not get read![/QUOTE

I am telling you they do.

How can I get through to you???

You can’t. Not without, at least, quoting scripture to back up why you support Vanderhoven and John 1: 46, and many others, that would save me lots of post set up time and volume
At least prove your case biblically or find biblical errors in mine, until that happens you will not convince our peers, reading these discussions or me for that matter.

Of course I could roll over and let false doctrine survive or I can present the biblical evidence covering all aspects.

Ciberseeker nor Digdeep do not have to read my posts, so why all the fuss? I suspect Historicists do not read it because most of my posts are quoted Bible verses against their ideas. I think they just want to shut me up.
Many wonderful people, our peers that view our discussions are seeing what is going on here. Those that do read, I say thank you for your valuable time and may God bless you abundantly. Amen

[billy-brown 2]

OK. Let’s think about what the scriptures say compared to John8 32.
This does not cover the whole of Daniel 8 but will concentrate on Daniel 7: 11: and 12 events and bring those same events together in Daniel 8 as concerning the time of the end, culminating on the day of the LORD at resurrection time, ending of the 2300 day vision concerning the 4th beast’s ‘kingdom divided’ also ending after its 42 month existence using Revelation 13. Medo/Iraq Persian/Iranian Empire was around at the silver chest, shoulder, arms period 539 – 331 BC, Greece was around the thighs of brass 331 – 168 BC on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel 2 however the last kingdom is during ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ yet to be established after which God sets up His everlasting kingdom in Daniel 2: 41 – 45 at the end of that 42 month period at the time of four last kings just before and within the 4th beast Empire.

Timing.
In Daniel chapter 8 verses 1 to 14 Daniel saw a vision and said that he wanted to know about that vision he had just seen in verse 15.

Daniel 8: 15. And it came to pass, when I, even I DANIEL HAD SEEN THE VISION, and SOUGHT THE MEANING, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Daniel 8: 16: And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the LAST END of the INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END SHALL BE.

Knowing that Daniel was told, after he saw the vision, in verses 1 to 14 that the vision is concerned with the TIME OF THE END in verse 17 and LAST END concerning the indignation of desolation in verse 19 So it is axiomatic that those verses refer to the future and not the many past ancient Empire times but to a future time during THE FEET OF IRON AND POTTER’S CLAY period mentioned in Daniel 2: 41.

Daniel 2: 41. “And whereas thou sawest THE FEET AND TOES, PART OF POTTER’S CLAY, AND PART OF IRON, THE KINGDOM SHALL BE DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.”
So we have the feet of iron and Potter’s clay period when the kingdom of God is to be set up during the time of 4 kings, depicted as the lion, bear, leopard and 4th beast most terrible in Daniel 7: 4 - 7 followed by the little horn/Satan, rising and joining together in Revelation 13: 1 - 18, by the way it is the same beast that will kill the two witnesses in Daniel 11: 7 until the last trump is blown in Revelation 11: 15 bringing in the Day of the LORD. Within Daniel 8 mention of the he goat from the far West that attacks the ram, after that happens the four kings which are called notables is a repeat of Daniel 7: 4 - 8 because these four kings/notables from Daniel 8: 8 – 9 are followed by the same little horn/Satan that comes up out of one of them so Rev 12 begins followed by Revelation 13: 1 – 8.

Historicists are unable to work out the biblical sequence because they go back from the feet of Iron and Potter’s clay period to an earlier empire age because of a preconceived idea about 70 AD make an un-biblical time error by saying quote that ‘the four notables are supposedly four Generals that rose up after Alexander of the Greek Empire’s age. unquote. How could that be? Did Jesus set up His kingdom during those four generals at the time of the brass thighs? Historicists confuse the four generals with the 4 notables that are the four kings that rise in Daniel 7: 4 – 7, followed by the little horn/Satan that same event is repeated in Daniel 8: 8 –9 followed by the little horn, all these beasts are displayed in Revelation chapters 13: 1 – 18 and many times more in Revelation.

Daniel 2: 44. AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Now we find the kings and absolute proof that during their time God sets up His kingdom, on Earth. Now the Bible has to say that all by itself and does exactly that.

In Daniel 7: 4 - 7 we have four beasts that rise up rise up who are kings according to (Dan7: 17. “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.”
So, we have the kings. Which have been mentioned in (Dan 7: 4–7) The next verse fulfills Daniel 2: 41 to 45 at the feet of iron and Potter’s clay says during the time of these kings God will set up His kingdom and the Saints will have that kingdom forever.
Daniel 7: 18: But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

In Daniel 7: 28 states that, that is the end of the matter.

The whole of chapter 7 is about the time of the end when God sets up His kingdom during theiol, bear, leopard 4th beast kings. Try reading Revelation 13 for proof when this last kingdom has only 42 months of existence.
Gabriel states that he will let Daniel know what shall be in the LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION, which is resentment against the Holy Covenant causing the vile person with that attitude to place the abomination of desolation to pollute the Sanctuary of strength and here is the biblical proof.

The Bible fixes the time span of the ‘abomination that maketh desolate’ at 1290 days.
Daniel 12: 11. “And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.”

Within Matthew 24: 15 we have the abomination of desolation being set up, which is for 1290 days, until verses 29 – 31, when Jesus puts an end to that set up upon HIS second coming unless Mark 13: 20 kicks in.
Mark 13: 20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
We are told, immediately after the tribulation of those days, which is at the finish of the 1290 days or sooner of the abomination of desolation set up Jesus returns.

Matthew 24: 29.IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the abomination of desolation is during the 1290 days or less to the second coming of Christ.

We must not forget the indignation and its connection to the abomination of desolation weakening the strength of the sanctuary by polluting it in Daniel 11: 31.

Daniel 11: 21. And in his estate shall stand up a VILE PERSON, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Again, the word “sacrifice” was added into Daniel 11: 31 as indicated by it being written in italics, so I have un-added it.

We have the abomination that maketh desolate set up in Daniel 11: 31.
Daniel 11: 31. And arms shall stand on his part, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

The abomination of desolation set up, from Daniel 11: 31 will last for no more than 1290 DAYS TO the day JESUS RETURNS TO RAISE THE DEAD. AT THAT TIME, on the day of the LORD, in Daniel 12: 1 – 2, which is the LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION.

Note Matthew 24: 15 we have the abomination of desolation lasting 1290 days ‘AT THAT TIME.’ 1290 days or less, later we will have the resurrection on the day of the LORD immediately after those days according to Matthew 24: 29 – 31 Jesus returns’ that SAME event is here explained again so the time span does not alter from the Matthew 24 description.

Daniel 11: 31. And arms shall stand on his part, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

1290 days later unless Mark 13: 20 kicks in to shorten them.

Daniel 12: 1. AND AT THAT TIME SHALL MICHAEL STAND UP, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. 2. And many of them THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, some to EVERLASTING LIFE, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The same 1290 biblical time span has been emphasized again from Daniel 11: 31 –1290 days or less to Daniel 12: 1 - 3 above, which is about the resurrection event and time span as depicted in Matthew 24: 15 – 1290 days or less to Matthew 24: 29, 30, 31 shown earlier.

Daniel 11: 30. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, AND HAVE INDIGNATION AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31. AND ARMS SHALL STAND ON HIS PART, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY OF STRENGTH, and shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY and THEY SHALL PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.
Knowing the correct time of the vision, we can then understand the explanation of it. But firstly lets note the mention of the indignation associated with placing the abomination of desolation that pollutes the Sanctuary, quoted above in Daniel 31, so lets look at the biblical connection with this time of the event where that indignation against the covenant pollute the Sanctuary that will have to be cleansed.

Hi PC,

The text in red above is of interest.

I. The verse below is critical in this:

Dan. 2
44 AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Why?

Because this one verse tells us everything we need to know about the "set up" of the Kingdom of God and its timing: IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS.

And there were only four (4) "earthly" KINGDOMS and one "heavenly" KINGDOM mentioned in Daniel 2. And here is an excerpt from that critical passage below:

Dan. 2
31 “You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome.
32 “The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze,
33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
34 “You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them.
35 “Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Now, which of the "kingdoms" of Dan. 2:31-35 is not like the others? The everlasting "stone cut out without hands" is indeed not an "earthly" kingdom, and is not of this world--even though it is now in this world. And notice that there are only five (5) kingdoms in the dream/vision of Dan. 2:31-35:

Kingdom 1): head - gold
Kingdom 2): breast/arms - silver
Kingdom 3): belly/thighs - bronze
Kingdom 4): legs/feet - iron/clay
Kingdom 5): stone cut out without hands

That's all.

Now, notice that all the kingdoms represented in the interpretation verses below are of this world:

Dan. 2
36 “This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king.
37 “You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory;
38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.
39 “After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
40 “Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.

Thus, kingdom 5 above is not like kingdoms 1 thru 4 at all. And unlike kingdoms 1 thru 4 (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome), the "stone cut out without hands" kingdom has had only one King of Kings for all time--King Jesus.

And every member of the "stone cut out without hands" kingdom is a King also (i.e., they represent the King in this world through the authority of Jesus' name)--as taught here:

Mark 16
14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

and of course, here:

Rev. 5
8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.

Yep.

And if the passages of Mark 16 and Rev. 5 above are not true, then ALL Gospel preaching and teaching today should come to a screeching halt. After all, we are in the Kingdom of God right now with redemption and forgiveness of sins:

Col. 1
13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

And Paul wrote this in the first century . . . Interesting . . .

II. We have this from you as well:

Now we find the kings and absolute proof that during their time God sets up His kingdom, on Earth. Now the Bible has to say that all by itself and does exactly that.

And so, we have a dialectic here that is critical here: the nature of the Kingdom of God. Additionally, how does God set up His kingdom? Is not the Kingdom of God here already? Notice the words of Jesus below:

John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

III. Finally, we have the following from you:

We are told, immediately after the tribulation of those days, which is at the finish of the 1290 days or sooner of the abomination of desolation set up Jesus returns.

Matthew 24: 29.IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the abomination of desolation is during the 1290 days or less to the second coming of Christ.

And so, it appears that you are "joining together" all of the "abomination of desolation" passages as if they refer to the same thing every time; are you sure that you want to do that? After all, we have this passage:

Matt. 24
15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Now, who is supposed to see "the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION" in this passage? Do you know?

[divaD]

Now, who is supposed to see "the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION" in this passage? Do you know?

IMO, you would need to show exactly what abomination took place in the 1st century. Just because the temple was destroyed, that doesn't mean an abomination was the reason for it. But if so, then what abomination caused this to occur? That seems like a simple question that should have a simple answer, if the abomination that causeth desolation, that this occurred in the first century.

I know where you going with this...Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. In your mind, this is only applicable to those in the first century. No problemo, that is as long as you can Scripturally tell us exactly what abomination occurred back then.