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Thread: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Hi Butch, you are right here in my understanding as well. I have some other verses I want to dig out and post. Hopefully I will have time here as I am buried in homework. I have to take breaks though


    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    Hi Luciano,

    You said,



    This statement goes directly against Paul's admonition. It is the very reason for his letter of chastisement. The Corinthians were building themselves up, that's the reason Paul writes the letter and chastises them.

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Butch... if you read in Acts you'll see how wrong your statement is.

    Acts 3:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
    13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”


    Several nationalities to include Gentiles were present when Peter spoke and AS he was speaking, each of those many different nationalities heard him speaking in "their" native languages all at the same time.

    If you were to speak English and in the congregation the Hispanic heard you in Spanish, the Russian heard you in Russian, and the Korean heard you in Korean as you spoke in English... this is an example of the tongues that Peter was manifesting.

    This continues today and this "kinds of tongues" cannot be faked as the kind the Corinthians were manifesting.

    So... who/what/how are Christians empowered today to speak in tongues?
    No Slug1, what I said is not wrong. If you read the entire event carefully that becomes clear.


    Acts 2:1-13(KJV)
    1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
    7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
    8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
    9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
    10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
    11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
    12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
    13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    Luke says that the Spirit came upon them and they (Plural, those 120 in the upper room) began to speak in "Other" tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. So, these 120 were all speaking different languages that they didn't know, as the Spirit gave it ito them. So of course that would mean the each of those who heard would hear someone speaking in his own language. The passage says nothing about God changing the sound between the apostles lips and the hearer's ear.

    In addition if the change was after the apostles spoke there would be no need for the Spirit to give the apostles "Other" tongues.

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Oregongrown View Post
    Hi Butch, you are right here in my understanding as well. I have some other verses I want to dig out and post. Hopefully I will have time here as I am buried in homework. I have to take breaks though
    I believe the problem is that many Chrsitians don't realize that this is a letter of chastisement and as such don't read it that way. Paul is ripping these Corinthians

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I think confusion comes because there are all sorts of manifestations of God's gifts to the church and God's gifts to each individual. If you study out 1 Cor. 12 you will see a list of nine gifts to the church (not necessarily to the person, though it is through a person that these gifts are manifested). They are the speaking gifts (tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy); the knowing gifts (word of wisdom, word of knowledge and discerning of spirits); and the doing gifts (faith, working of miracles, and healings).

    These gifts are (my opinion) given to the church and not possessed or owned by any member in particular. In other words, some person can move in gifts of healing one week and the next in interpretation of tongues, while another member moves in a differing gift at differing instances. God gives these gifts "severally as He WILL" (1 Cor. 12:11).

    However, 1 Cor. 14 makes it clear (to me at least) that tongues and prophecy (not necessarily, from the list in 1 Cor. 12) in this instance is personal gifts that are common and given for personal edification (tongues) and corporate edification (prophesy). Every instance (5 times) in the book of Acts, when one received the Holy Spirit they spoke with tongues. Tongues should be common then among believers, to build themselves up, and are not necessarily to be interpreted.
    Thank you and that makes me see it more clearly now. I wasn't sure of the proper names. I was just bunching them all together.


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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    Hi Saved,

    . Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge ceased before faith hope and love cease. You yourself acknowledged that faith and hope end when Christ returns, therefore Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge must cease before faith and hope.
    .

    I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that since the gifts are a part of faith, then when faith is no longer needed, the gifts will not be needed either. Therefore, since we see we still have to have faith, then the gifts must also still be in existence. The evidence of this being that there is still a need for teaching, and helps and other such gifts, and we know that faith and hope are still needed because Christ has not returned. If those gifts still exists then obviously we still need faith and hope, because the gifts are tied to these two things...its' a thing where the two go hand in hand and cannot be separated. As for the tongues ceasing, I'm not sure why you think that gift won't cease, but scripture says that tongues will cease.

    1 corinthinans 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that since the gifts are a part of faith, then when faith is no longer needed, the gifts will not be needed either. Therefore, since we see we still have to have faith, then the gifts must also still be in existence. The evidence of this being that there is still a need for teaching, and helps and other such gifts, and we know that faith and hope are still needed because Christ has not returned. If those gifts still exists then obviously we still need faith and hope, because the gifts are tied to these two things...its' a thing where the two go hand in hand and cannot be separated. As for the tongues ceasing, I'm not sure why you think that gift won't cease, but scripture says that tongues will cease.
    There's a problem there because Paul said that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, cease "before" faith and hope, so if faith and hope end when Christ returns, prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, "Must" cease prior to Christ's coming.

    Also, Christ's coming probably isn't the "Perfect" anyway because it doesn't fit Paul's analogy. He gave the analogy of a child growing into a man. This is a process that takes place over time. Christ said his coming would be as a thief in the night, that is a sudden event, not a drawn out process.

    Regarding tongues, my point was that the cessation of tongues is not tied to the coming of the Perfect. Paul said,

    1 Corinthians 13:9-10(KJV)
    9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    What is in part is prophecy and knowledge, Paul doesn'tsay anything about tongues being in part. This is also substantiated by the grammar. Of the three that cease, two are in the Greek passive voice, prophecy and knowledge, and one is in the Greek middle voice, tongues. The passive voice indicates that something outside of prophecy and knowledge will cause them to cease, however, the middle voice indicates the subject of the verb is acting on itself. In other words, tongues will cease of their own accord. We know that tongues was for a purpose, Paul says tongues is for the unbeliever.

    1 Corinthians 14:22(KJV)
    22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

    What many Christians miss is what Paul said just before this.

    1 Corinthians 14:21(KJV)
    21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

    Paul says in the Law it is written and from what is written he draw a conclusio that tongues are for the unbeliever. So, the question then is what was written? It was this.


    Isaiah 28:1-19(KJV)
    1Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
    2Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
    3The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
    4And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
    5In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
    6And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
    7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
    8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
    9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
    11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
    13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
    14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
    15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
    16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
    17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
    18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
    19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.


    The unbelievers that Paul is speaking of are "ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. " Tongues were a sign of Judgment to the Jewish leadership in the days of Christ. When the Jewish leadership saw these people speaking in Tongues they should have recalled that passage in Isaiah that says judgment is coming. These Corinthians were using tongues to edify themselves, they were trying to out do one another with the gifts. Paul tells them, hey, tongues isn't for use in the church the purpose of tongues is to show the Jewish leadership that their judgment is coming, and it did, less than 40 years later. So, after the judgment passed there would no longer be a need for the sign warning of the judgment, thus tongues would end of its own accord. History bears this out as tongues began to disappear and by 200AD, there is hardly any mention of it.

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    No Slug1, what I said is not wrong. If you read the entire event carefully that becomes clear.


    Acts 2:1-13(KJV)
    1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
    7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
    8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
    9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
    10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
    11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
    12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
    13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    Luke says that the Spirit came upon them and they (Plural, those 120 in the upper room) began to speak in "Other" tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. So, these 120 were all speaking different languages that they didn't know, as the Spirit gave it ito them. So of course that would mean the each of those who heard would hear someone speaking in his own language. The passage says nothing about God changing the sound between the apostles lips and the hearer's ear.

    In addition if the change was after the apostles spoke there would be no need for the Spirit to give the apostles "Other" tongues.
    Butch... when Peter spoke that sermon after coming out of the upper room, he only had to give it once. All the listeners who spoke all different languages heard the sermon in their language as is established in the previous scriptures I posted and underlined the parts that show us that truth. He had to calm everyone down and explain "why" they were all hearing in their own personal native language through the ref back to Joel.

    You really need to get out there in the world and experience how God is moving... one form of the gift of the Holy Spirit "different kinds of tongues" that is active today still. When a person speaks, people hear them speaking in their native language and if two different or even many more different nationalities are present, they all hear the speaker in their own personal language. Doesn't matter what language the speaker is speaking. He's speaking in ALL the other languages at the SAME time by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    So you can reason the scriptures as you want... God will continue to work the way He's wants. It's just a matter of accepting what God is doing. He's aligned with what is written in scripture. Seems that since you believe sign gifts have ended then the meaning can't possibly be anything except the way you interpreted Acts 2, to fit your belief.

    Maybe someday you will get out into the world where that gift is in need of manifestation and then you will re-reason your understanding of the scriptures? Until then, you have your belief and you will ensure your interpretation of your belief is all in alignment?

    Anyway... for those who are manifesting "different kinds of tongues" today as it's going on out there in the world as the Gospel is spread... who/what/how are Christians manifesting this kinds of tongues??

    Oh... if a prophet came to you and God spoke to you through the obedient prophet... what would you do?
    Slug1--out

    ~Does Predestination mean: Once of the devil, Always of the devil?~

    ~Limitations in a Christian’s life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    This statement goes directly against Paul's admonition. It is the very reason for his letter of chastisement. The Corinthians were building themselves up, that's the reason Paul writes the letter and chastises them.
    the first few verses of Chapter 14 make it clear that Paul was not chastising them for speaking in tongues, he was encouraging it and explaining that it was a prayer in the spirit (v. 14). He exhorts us to prophesy because its better than tongues (for it edifies the Body of Christ). That does not in any way lessen the important of praying and singing in the spirit (in tongues). Jude exhorts us to "build our selves up in the holy faith by praying in the Holy Ghost" (v. 20). And Paul explains that we are weak sometimes and don't know how we should pray, so the Holy Spirit intercedes and helps us with groanings that can not be uttered (articulated) (Rom. 8:26).

    If Paul, perhaps the greatest of the Apostles (besides Jesus - Heb. 3:1), was weak and needed help and spoke (prayed) in tongues more than all the Corinthians (1 Cor. 14:18), than who am I to think I don't need help/intercession by the Holy Spirit when I pray or sing? (1 Cor. 14:15)

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    the first few verses of Chapter 14 make it clear that Paul was not chastising them for speaking in tongues, he was encouraging it and explaining that it was a prayer in the spirit (v. 14). He exhorts us to prophesy because its better than tongues (for it edifies the Body of Christ). That does not in any way lessen the important of praying and singing in the spirit (in tongues). Jude exhorts us to "build our selves up in the holy faith by praying in the Holy Ghost" (v. 20). And Paul explains that we are weak sometimes and don't know how we should pray, so the Holy Spirit intercedes and helps us with groanings that can not be uttered (articulated) (Rom. 8:26).

    If Paul, perhaps the greatest of the Apostles (besides Jesus - Heb. 3:1), was weak and needed help and spoke (prayed) in tongues more than all the Corinthians (1 Cor. 14:18), than who am I to think I don't need help/intercession by the Holy Spirit when I pray or sing? (1 Cor. 14:15)
    Yep... Paul went there to disciple them (the Body of Christ) in the proper conduct, USE OF, and the order of... those gifts of the Holy Spirit.

    Many... SO MANY today need the same discipleship.
    Slug1--out

    ~Does Predestination mean: Once of the devil, Always of the devil?~

    ~Limitations in a Christian’s life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Oh... if a prophet came to you and God spoke to you through the obedient prophet... what would you do?
    At least three things:

    1. Search the Word to make sure it lines up. (i.e. divorce your wife and marry an unbeliever would obviously not be supported by the Word)

    2. Ask the Holy Spirit to confirm it in my spirit (which is sometimes difficult because it may be a hard word; i.e. quit your job, move, go to this school, travel to this country as a missionary, start a church, etc.)

    3. 3 men taught the Scriptures more than any others (Moses, Jesus, Paul). All three teach us: that it is by the mouth of (at least) two or three witnesses let every word be established. (Deut. 19:15; Matt. 18:16; and 2 Cor. 13:1). I would seek confirmation with my pastor, elder, mentor or someone that I know is sensitive to the voice of God.

    Sometimes the timid or disobedient (Gideon and Jonah come to mind) do everything in their "will" to thwart what God is speaking to them. I am not sure throwing out a fleece is an acceptable way of determining God's will. That seems to be tempting God. And its only found in one instance, therefore I don't think its solid doctrine. Casting lots is found both in Old and New Testaments, however, this is also pretty rare. I would hate to think that someone rolled a dice to make an important decision in their life.

    Ultimately, our intimacy with the Holy Spirit is the most vital voice that keeps us from going in the wrong direction.

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    At least three things:

    1. Search the Word to make sure it lines up. (i.e. divorce your wife and marry an unbeliever would obviously not be supported by the Word)

    2. Ask the Holy Spirit to confirm it in my spirit (which is sometimes difficult because it may be a hard word; i.e. quit your job, move, go to this school, travel to this country as a missionary, start a church, etc.)

    3. 3 men taught the Scriptures more than any others (Moses, Jesus, Paul). All three teach us: that it is by the mouth of (at least) two or three witnesses let every word be established. (Deut. 19:15; Matt. 18:16; and 2 Cor. 13:1). I would seek confirmation with my pastor, elder, mentor or someone that I know is sensitive to the voice of God.

    Sometimes the timid or disobedient (Gideon and Jonah come to mind) do everything in their "will" to thwart what God is speaking to them. I am not sure throwing out a fleece is an acceptable way of determining God's will. That seems to be tempting God. And its only found in one instance, therefore I don't think its solid doctrine. Casting lots is found both in Old and New Testaments, however, this is also pretty rare. I would hate to think that someone rolled a dice to make an important decision in their life.

    Ultimately, our intimacy with the Holy Spirit is the most vital voice that keeps us from going in the wrong direction.
    I've done the fleece option and God answered directly in three different ways and one of them is framed and on a bookshelf in the backroom where I do my praying.

    I agree... as I testified in another thread (Here), a prophet came to me long ago and laid out a sin that was behind closed doors but clear to God. Then God informed me of some other info and the prophet was completed in bringing me a message from God. I was resisting God and hearing that prophet speak, broke me while at the same time, made me aware of both His seriousness and mercy.

    I know that this type of prophetic word through a prophet is more than obvious since the spoke about what was going on behind closed doors and this led to me facing God and He led me through a period of restoration. Your points are what we all need to do when faced with a prophetic word spoken to us when it's not as clear as my situation was. Other prophetic words I've received or were spoken to me were all put through prayer, waiting for confirmation, through higher authority (my pastor), etc. Some are still on the "hanger" either confirmed but still waiting for them to be fulfilled or on the hanger in need of confirmation.

    I've been out of work since Feb 11 when God made it clear to me that I was to go back to school... I resisted that for a long time too until God had me face down on the altar at church. I even had a resume in my hand for a job where they came TO ME, paid a little more than what I was making too... I tore that resume up during the prayer as an act of faith and then went down to the VA to begin my Post 9/11 GI Bill paperwork and I was in college a month later. Been in school since.

    Now, no prophet had to speak to me about this one but I can hear God pretty clear, even when He's telling me to stop working. It's the "WHAT, stop working??!!!" That was something that required faith and that I actually needed a lesson in knowing JUST how much faith I exercise.

    Anyway... let me kick this soapbox aside, I have an assignment I still need to write up and email to my instructor.
    Slug1--out

    ~Does Predestination mean: Once of the devil, Always of the devil?~

    ~Limitations in a Christian’s life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I've done the fleece option and God answered directly in three different ways and one of them is framed and on a bookshelf in the backroom where I do my praying.

    I agree... as I testified in another thread (Here), a prophet came to me long ago and laid out a sin that was behind closed doors but clear to God. Then God informed me of some other info and the prophet was completed in bringing me a message from God. I was resisting God and hearing that prophet speak, broke me while at the same time, made me aware of both His seriousness and mercy.

    I know that this type of prophetic word through a prophet is more than obvious since the spoke about what was going on behind closed doors and this led to me facing God and He led me through a period of restoration. Your points are what we all need to do when faced with a prophetic word spoken to us when it's not as clear as my situation was. Other prophetic words I've received or were spoken to me were all put through prayer, waiting for confirmation, through higher authority (my pastor), etc. Some are still on the "hanger" either confirmed but still waiting for them to be fulfilled or on the hanger in need of confirmation.

    I've been out of work since Feb 11 when God made it clear to me that I was to go back to school... I resisted that for a long time too until God had me face down on the altar at church. I even had a resume in my hand for a job where they came TO ME, paid a little more than what I was making too... I tore that resume up during the prayer as an act of faith and then went down to the VA to begin my Post 9/11 GI Bill paperwork and I was in college a month later. Been in school since.

    Now, no prophet had to speak to me about this one but I can hear God pretty clear, even when He's telling me to stop working. It's the "WHAT, stop working??!!!" That was something that required faith and that I actually needed a lesson in knowing JUST how much faith I exercise.

    Anyway... let me kick this soapbox aside, I have an assignment I still need to write up and email to my instructor.
    I should have mentioned that I was responding on what I would do if someone just walked up to me and began to prophesy something over me that I hadn't already heard from the Lord. If God hadn't already prepped me to receive this word, then I would follow the steps outlined in my previous post. If God tells me to do something, whether any person prophesies that over me as confirmation or not, I am responsible to obey.

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    the first few verses of Chapter 14 make it clear that Paul was not chastising them for speaking in tongues, he was encouraging it and explaining that it was a prayer in the spirit (v. 14).
    The letter was a chastisement, in chapter 14 Paul gives instructions on how to behave after chastising them. He wasn’t encouraging the to pray in tongues, he makes that clear in the next verse.

    1 Corinthians 14:15(KJV)
    15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
    Paul says he’ll pray in with understanding. He made the argument in verse 14 that if he prayed in tongues he wouldn’t know what he was saying. So, in verse 15 he says I’ll pray with understanding.



    He exhorts us to prophesy because its better than tongues (for it edifies the Body of Christ).
    He exhorts the Corinthians to prophesy.
    That does not in any way lessen the important of praying and singing in the spirit (in tongues).
    What purpose is there to praying to God if you don’t know what you’re saying?

    Jude exhorts us to "build our selves up in the holy faith by praying in the Holy Ghost" (v. 20). And Paul explains that we are weak sometimes and don't know how we should pray, so the Holy Spirit intercedes and helps us with groanings that can not be uttered (articulated) (Rom. 8:26).
    Take note to what you posted, Paul said with groanings that “CANNOT” be uttered. It isn’t tongues because it cannot be uttered




    If Paul, perhaps the greatest of the Apostles (besides Jesus - Heb. 3:1), was weak and needed help and spoke (prayed) in tongues more than all the Corinthians (1 Cor. 14:18), than who am I to think I don't need help/intercession by the Holy Spirit when I pray or sing? (1 Cor. 14:15)[/QUOTE]

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Butch... when Peter spoke that sermon after coming out of the upper room, he only had to give it once. All the listeners who spoke all different languages heard the sermon in their language as is established in the previous scriptures I posted and underlined the parts that show us that truth. He had to calm everyone down and explain "why" they were all hearing in their own personal native language through the ref back to Joel.

    You really need to get out there in the world and experience how God is moving... one form of the gift of the Holy Spirit "different kinds of tongues" that is active today still. When a person speaks, people hear them speaking in their native language and if two different or even many more different nationalities are present, they all hear the speaker in their own personal language. Doesn't matter what language the speaker is speaking. He's speaking in ALL the other languages at the SAME time by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    So you can reason the scriptures as you want... God will continue to work the way He's wants. It's just a matter of accepting what God is doing. He's aligned with what is written in scripture. Seems that since you believe sign gifts have ended then the meaning can't possibly be anything except the way you interpreted Acts 2, to fit your belief.

    Maybe someday you will get out into the world where that gift is in need of manifestation and then you will re-reason your understanding of the scriptures? Until then, you have your belief and you will ensure your interpretation of your belief is all in alignment?

    Anyway... for those who are manifesting "different kinds of tongues" today as it's going on out there in the world as the Gospel is spread... who/what/how are Christians manifesting this kinds of tongues??

    Oh... if a prophet came to you and God spoke to you through the obedient prophet... what would you do?
    Slug1,

    You can call it my interpretation is you like, however, what I posted was Scripture. I posted the same passge you did, except I posted the psrt you left out. It cleary said,

    Acts 2:3-4(KJV)
    3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    It clearly says 'the began to speak with other tongues". There were multiple people and multiple languages.

    The Ad Hominem doesn't help your case either and I really hope I wasn't set up for this. You are already well aware of my position on this topic yet you questioned me with questions I've already previously answered for you, then you present the ad hominem. I'm really hoping that this is just frustration or something on your part and not intentional.

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    Re: Tongues and Prophecy : importance according to scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    The letter was a chastisement, in chapter 14 Paul gives instructions on how to behave after chastising them. He wasn’t encouraging the to pray in tongues, he makes that clear in the next verse.

    1 Corinthians 14:15(KJV)
    15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
    Paul says he’ll pray in with understanding. He made the argument in verse 14 that if he prayed in tongues he wouldn’t know what he was saying. So, in verse 15 he says I’ll pray with understanding.
    The key word is "and". Paul both prays with the spirit "and" with understanding. If, however, what you are saying is that "praying in the spirit" is not praying in tongues, that is a whole other argument. The context seems to clearly indicate that praying with the spirit and praying with understanding are contrasted and not the same thing. Thus praying, with the spirit is not praying with understanding.

    [/QUOTE]
    What purpose is there to praying to God if you don’t know what you’re saying?
    Take note to what you posted, Paul said with groanings that “CANNOT” be uttered. It isn’t tongues because it cannot be uttered
    [/QUOTE]

    Reiterating, Rom. 8:26 speaks to our weakness in not knowing what we should pray for, thus the Spirit itself helps us with groanings and words which cannot be uttered (spoken in a discernible language or not even spoken at all). Tongues (as far as for personal use, not the gift that is to be interpreted in the church - 1 Cor. 12) is sometimes just groaning, babbling, stammering lips, etc. that "flows" ("rheo" - flowing, rhetoric, speaking) from our belly or innermost being (Jn. 7:38). The next verse goes on to explain that Jesus was referring to the receiving of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 7:39).

    If you do not believe that the saints today should speak or pray or sing in tongues, then this whole discussion is moot. What this thread was trying to establish, I think, is "order" in the area of prophecy/tongues in the church of today, not in Corinth of yesterday.
    Last edited by Luciano Vinci; Jan 14th 2012 at 11:43 PM. Reason: wrong quotes come up

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