Works of the law, Good works

[Butch5]

You are straining at semantics now. Two types of false conversions are described by Jesus in the parable of the sower. When I use the word "false conversion", I mean something that to the naked eye appears to be a conversion, but is not genuine. Have you ever heard of "false wheat"? How about artificial fruit? Or fools gold? These are servicable similes.

Regarding sola fidei, think of it this way. When a person comes to God to confess their sins, on what basis does God forgive them? Does He forgive them on the basis of their works, or on the basis of the work of Christ? Luther was correct in this regard. It is by faith that God declares a sinner righteous, not be any righteous deeds that they have done, for before conversion we are unrighteous and dead in trespasses and sin. So we come to God as wicked sinners, and receive forgiveness, pardon, and justification even though we have done absolutely nothing to deserve it, on the contrary, before conversion all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Hi Glad,

It's not samantics. It's the difference between what people call saved and unsaved. You mentioned that parable of the sower, those who received the word were converted, some didn't continue but they did receive the word. You mentioned the forgivenenss issue but that isn't at issue what a person initally comes to Christ.

[glad4mercy]

Hi Glad,

I'm not suggesting we rely on our own strength. Us doing something isn't relying on our own strength. There is nothing a man can do to save himself, he can do all the good works in the world they won't save him. Only God can save. The point is that god has told us to do things and if we don't do them we can't expect him to be waiting there for us in the end.

Actually I can agree with these statements, but I can't agree with the statement "faith plus works saves us." We are forgiven, cleansed, reconciled to God, filled with the Holy Spirit, and united with Christ by faith alone. When I put my faith and trust in Christ and called upon His name, God saved me at that moment. If I had died a moment later, I would have gone to be with the Lord in Heaven. So the matter is simple. God saves us freely, conditioned only on faith and repentance, and He Keeps us as we abide in the faith/in Christ. .

John 15: 5- I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Regarding the role of works in salvation, please explain the role that works play in the New Birth.

You mentioned the forgivenenss issue but that isn't at issue what a person initally comes to Christ.

Please explain what you mean by this statement

[mailmandan]

I didn’t brush it aside. The works that Paul is speaking of are the works of the Mosaic Law. Paul is addressing the issue that was facing the early church, that of the Judaizers. His discussion in Romans is based on keeping the Mosaic which is what the Judaizers were espousing. Paul clearly says what the works are in his argument. The word Law appears 52 times is Romans, that’s more than any other book of the Bible. So, you didn’t address James words with an explanation, you simply counter posted Paul’s words. I’ve already amply shown that Romans is dealing with the works of the Mosaic Law, so you’ve got this passage out of context. James is speaking of meeting people’s needs not the Mosaic Law.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Please tell me Butch, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

Either we perfectly keep the Mosiac law, which includes the moral aspect of the law, and we are saved by works or else we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (who never once broke the law) and receive His imputed righteousness (Romans 4:5-6). There is no middle ground. It's not Christ did most of it but we did some of it. We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). Salvation through faith in Christ is the alternative to salvation by works.

Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. In doing so, God has obligated Himself to save those who believe and are baptized.

In Mark 16:16, if we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 2—He who does not believe shall be condemned. Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they shall be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse. While Jesus does give the positive condition of baptism (whoever is baptized) in Mark 16:16, nowhere in the Bible do we find the negative condition of baptism being taught (such as whoever is not baptized will be condemned).

If water baptism is required for salvation, then why did Jesus Himself not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18, 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. No mention of baptism. Surely, if water baptism was also required for salvation, God would not make statements in which He promises salvation to those who simply BELIEVE.

A.T. Robertson explains on Mark 16:16 - And is baptized (kai baptisqeiß). The omission of baptized with "disbelieveth" would seem to show that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on disbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. Baptism is merely the picture of the new life not the means of securing it. So serious a sacramental doctrine would need stronger support anyhow than this disputed portion of Mark. Maybe you should start a new thread on baptism.

[mailmandan]

No, but James said that Abraham was justified by works. Without justification, no one is saved.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc...). The word justified is also used in a "declarative sense." James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will SHOW you my faith by my works.

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified (KJV) by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right..." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/ (dikaioo - shown to be right) by her deeds."

In Luke 16:14-15, "Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God." The Pharisees belief was that their own goodness was what justified them. This is the very definition of "self-righteousness." But, as Jesus explained, their righteousness was flawed, being an external appearance only. That might be enough to justify them before (deceived) men, but not before God, because He knew their hearts.

James uses dikaioo in this sense - to show to be righteous. And so we see that Abraham's works show that he was righteous. He had been accounted as righteous on the basis of his faith, not his works in Genesis 15:6, but was shown to be righteous in Genesis 22, which is the point that James is making. The harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. What a genuine believer means by salvation through "faith (in Christ) alone" and what James means by "faith only" is NOT the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:1-6; Ephesians 2:8-9); yet faith, if it is genuine, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect harmony*

Dan, I'm well aware of what you're saying. It's just not what James is saying. You're saying works play no role is salvation. Yet Jesus, James, Paul, Peter, church history, and the newness of your doctrine all say otherwise.

The role that works play in our salvation is that they are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If there are no works at all, then our faith is bogus. Neither Jesus, James, Paul or Peter taught salvation by works regardless of what "he said, they said" (fallible men) in church history said. Clement of Rome said: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians). Basil said: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ." I could quote these two men for example and say, there you have it. The Roman Catholic church loves to quote the church fathers to support baptismal regeneration and transubstantiation. Did all the church fathers agree on these two doctrines? Are these men infallible? Do they speak for all of Christianity?

Dan, that doesn't answer the question. According to you, a person is saved the "Moment" they believe. This doesn't leave anytime for works to even enter the picture. If they are saved the moment they believe, how does the either man know if he is saved?

I answered the question. When we (truly) believe the gospel, we are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13). The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.. (Romans 8:16). True saving faith then manifests itself by good works produced in the transforming, regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. What other confirmation are you looking for? We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Matthew 27:39-43 (the story of the thief on the cross), we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a change of mind and placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Now how many good works did that thief accomplish on the cross in those final moments before he died? If the thief would have been allowed to live, you would have seen a changed life in the thief demonstrated by good works, but the point is that he was saved through faith, apart from whatever works he would have accomplished later.

[Gadgeteer]

I don’t buy the disputed passage argument yet, simply because the earliest copies of the NT we have date to around 400AD. The ECF’s quote the long version of Mark prior to 200 AD.

Whether or not it's "disputed" isn't important, Butch; it simply does not say "he who is not water-baptized is condemned".

The other arguments are easily addressed, however, I don’t want to hijack Dan’s thread. I’d be more than happy to discuss water baptism in another thread if you’d like.

That's fine if you wish; though Cornelius & friends/family (Acts10) absolutely were saved prior to being baptized.

Faith includes works and they’re all things Christians are required to do.

I disagree. What we're arguing is "cause" and "effect"; faith does not include works, faith leads irresistibly to good works, if it is true faith. You may say "faith is actively receiving and abiding in Jesus", which would be true; but before one comes to God, he must "believe that God IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" (Heb11:6).

I didn’t brush it aside. The works that Paul is speaking of are the works of the Mosaic Law.

So why are SOME works part of salvation, and OTHER works are not? Are they not all "works of righteousness"? By delineating LAW-works, from RIGHTEOUS-works, you are trying to "filter" Scripture the same way that some doctrines filter things; Calvinism for instance takes "ALL MEN" (1Tim2:4) and filters it into "only-some-of-all-TYPES". As another poster eloquently said in this thread, "Faith comes before works".

There is nothing in the Scriptures we've discussed to separate "works done in righteousness" from "works of Law"; Titus3:5 and Rom11:6 simply say "works". The only measure for your separating them is a "preconceived doctrine of salvation by faith plus works". No disrespect intended.

Tell me flat out --- during World War 2, thousands of people in prison-camps accepted Christ. But it was impossible for them to get waterbaptized.

Were they saved?

That decision is up to God. However, using an example like that to undermine the apostle teaching doesn’t negate what they said.

First, no one said "without water you are not saved"; second, nowhere is water part of salvation. Third, Cornelius & family/friends were filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues --- and not yet dipped.

You see this argument is made by many Christians, but it doesn’t work. God is not bound by the rules He places us under. If God says to us, don’t go outside, that doesn’t mean He can go outside. Likewise if God says believe and get baptized and I’ll save you, it doesn’t mean He can’t save someone who isn’t baptized.

Butch, nowhere in Scripture is the idea that "those who are not waterbaptized will perish". It may be argued that waterbaptism is a command; as such, one who refuses baptism has validly questionable salvation; but the baptism is the consequence of a surrendered heart, not the cause. As Peter said, "Baptism now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience". 1:3:21. It's the same as Acts22:16 -- it's not the WATER that washes away sins (else we would have to be dipped daily!!!), it is calling on His name that cleanses us! 1Jn1:9!

Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. In doing so, God has obligated Himself to save those who believe and are baptized.

Again, it is anecdotal; the second half is: "He who has disbelieved will be condemned". Not "he who is not waterbaptized is condemned". In vain would you or I search the Scriptures for anything which hints/implies/states "Dipped or (condemned)".

That does not limit God to only save those who meet that criteria. He can save anyone He wants to save. The difference is in our preaching, we can only preach what God has promised. Jesus said be baptized, Peter said repent and be baptized. Nowhere in Scripture do you find Jesus or the apostles “TEACHING” that some can be saved without water baptism. Therefore if we teach that people can be saved and not be baptized we are presuming of God. We are making promised for God that He didn’t make.

Cornelius was filled with the Spirit. Either an unsaved man was Spirit-filled, or he was saved before dipping.

Exactly what is that "something"? Is it part OF the gift? Or is the gift complete before we receive it? When we stand before God, are there two things that He checks for --- Christ in us, AND a stack of good deeds in our hand?

...or does God look at our lives and say "Your good deeds reveal that you belonged to Christ"? The difference might be subtle, but it is profound. The question is "are deeds CAUSAL, or CONSEQUENTIAL?"

I won’t presume to answer for God.

No one's asking you to. Yet God has given many answers in His inspired ("God-breathed" 2Tim3:16) Scripture.

But, you agree that we do something, correct?

We do not "work" --- we do HIS work by believing. It is His gift we receive, everything else is consequential to our believing/receiving Jesus.

"To as many as received Christ, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believed in His name --- who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God." Jn1:12-3.

You are arguing that "we are born by men's will", by making "works" part of "born-again". Can you deny this?

There is nothing required on our part for Jesus to have been the perfect sacrifice, the appeasement for our sins; Col2:14 says that He took our certificate of debt away, and nailed it to the Cross. We provided no nails, no paper, no ink, and no blood.

...He gave it all...

That’s not what we’re talking about.

Yes it is --- are we saved by "grace through faith + works"? Or are we saved "by grace through faith, and works are created beforehand that we should walk in them"?

The question is, does our having to do something for salvation diminish Christ’s sufficiency?

Yes. Either He did all the work, or we "come to the Cross with something of our OWN in our hands".

He did it all; even the works He prepared beforehand intending that we walk in them.

No, it seems like a play on words. You state right here, we pick up the gift, how then did God do all of the work?

Because the work was done BEFOREHAND; we merely walk IN it.

The Jews had just seen Jesus feed the 5000; they thought, "Neat trick! Show us how to also work the works of God!" (Show us how to fill our bellies without work!) Therefore Jesus said, "Do not WORK for food that perishes, but work for food that endures to eternal life." (Jews: "What must we do to WORK THE WORKS of God?") "This is the work of God, that you believe in ME."

how can "If works it is no longer grace", become "salvation is by grace through faith and works".

It’s simple, Paul is addressing the issue that was facing the early church, that of the Judaizers. His discussion in Romans is based on keeping the Mosaic which is what the Judaizers were espousing. Paul clearly says what the works are in his argument. The word Law appears 52 times is Romans, that’s more than any other book of the Bible. You’ve got to start at the beginning and follow his argument.

The Law was the path to righteousness; it was absolutely "works of righteousness".

You see, the problem is that many Christians define works in a vacuum. They simply look at the word and define it out of context. However, when look at the historical setting and let the Scriptures define works we see that the modern definition doesn’t fit.

Yet the context of all Scriptures asserts that Jesus paid the price --- if we do WORKS as PART of our salvation, then WE are paying part of the price!!!

That's the whole issue.

That’s not my definition. James has already shown that works are causal, Faith without works is dead. Dead faith cannot save, thus works are causal.

No; "no works" exposes an unsaved faith, "good works" exposes a saved faith; it's the same as in Matt7:16-18.

So, you didn’t address James words with an explanation, you simply counter posted Paul’s words.

James compliments all the others; especially Jesus in Matt7:16-18 --- "no bad tree produces good fruit, no good tree produces bad fruit; you will know them by their fruit/works".

I’ve already amply shown that Romans is dealing with the works of the Mosaic Law, so you’ve got this passage out of context. James is speaking of meeting people’s needs not the Mosaic Law. However, for clarity I’ll post it again.

Romans 4:5(KJV)
⁵But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
This verse is part of Paul’s argument against the necessity of keeping the Mosaic Law, consider what precedes this.

And there is no basis for separating "righteous deeds according to MOSAIC LAW, and righteous deeds the saved now do".

Look at Rom10:8 --- "the word of faith is in your hearts and mouths --- that is the word of faith which we are preaching". That is a direct quote of Deuteronomy30:14.

They were not saved by WORKS in Deuteronomy 30, but by faith; the word of faith was in them, they acted on that faith by obeying Christ and walking in His statutes and by holding fast to Him.

Then as now, "works" were the consequence of a faithful heart.

Romans 3:23-28(KJV)
²³For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
²⁴Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
²⁵Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
²⁶To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
²⁷Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
²⁸Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Agreed, and in both of these example that it is the believers who are being admonished to continue. If it is Christ who does the good works why are these being admonished to continue?

All the admonishments are to "measure our position by our deeds". That is Peter's clear message in 2:1:5-11; as long as godly deeds are evident, we are useful and fruitful and will not stumble/become-wretched (ptaio), in THIS way the very eisodos-gates of Heaven will be provided to us. In this way we make our calling and election/salvation bebaios-firm.

How does that affect the good deeds if Christ is doing them?

Because good deeds are the consequence of faith, not the cause; that seems to be our difference.

[Butch5]

Whether or not it's "disputed" isn't important, Butch; it simply does not say "he who is not water-baptized is condemned".

It doesn’t have to affirm the negative, it already affirms the positive. It’s the same as if I said, if you come over to my house and wash my car I’ll give you $20, but if you don’t come over you won’t get $20. Obviously if you don’t come over you wouldn’t wash my car. It isn’t necessary for me to state the obvious. Likewise if some doesn’t believe in Christ obviously he‘s not going to be baptized in the name of Christ. There’s absolutely no necessity or reason for Jesus to say he who doesn’t believe and doesn’t get baptized won’t be saved. We don’t talk like that why would we expect Jesus to?

That's fine if you wish; though Cornelius & friends/family (Acts10) absolutely were saved prior to being baptized.

That’s your opinion; there is nothing in the Scriptures that states that. But either way, I’ve made it clear that Salvation is a process. When a person accepts Christ they enter into a relationship with Christ. Baptism obviously follows belief, however, to be saved in the end it is another story.

I disagree. What we're arguing is "cause" and "effect"; faith does not include works, faith leads irresistibly to good works, if it is true faith. You may say "faith is actively receiving and abiding in Jesus", which would be true; but before one comes to God, he must "believe that God IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" (Heb11:6).

Well, you can disagree if you like, however, James is clear, “Faith if it has no works is dead”. That brings us back to the question I’ve been asking and you guys have not been able to give an adequate answer to, how does dead faith produce anything?

So why are SOME works part of salvation, and OTHER works are not? Are they not all "works of righteousness"? By delineating LAW-works, from RIGHTEOUS-works, you are trying to "filter" Scripture the same way that some doctrines filter things; Calvinism for instance takes "ALL MEN" (1Tim2:4) and filters it into "only-some-of-all-TYPES". As another poster eloquently said in this thread, "Faith comes before works".

The difference in the works is defined by the apostles not me. You’re talking about filters and yet you guys are filtering works through your 21st century understanding. I on the other hand am letting each of the apostles define works for me. You posted Romans 11:6 and you spoke of Romans 4. Read the entire book. As I pointed out the word Law appears more in Romans than any other book of the Bible.


KJV Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
KJV Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
KJV Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
KJV Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
KJV Romans 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
KJV Romans 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
KJV Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
KJV Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
KJV Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
KJV Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
KJV Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
KJV Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
KJV Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
KJV Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
KJV Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
KJV Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
KJV Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
KJV Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
KJV Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
KJV Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
KJV Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
KJV Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
KJV Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
KJV Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
KJV Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
KJV Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
KJV Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
KJV Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
KJV Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
KJV Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
KJV Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
KJV Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
KJV Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
KJV Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
KJV Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
KJV Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
KJV Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
KJV Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
KJV Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
KJV Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
KJV Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
KJV Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
KJV Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
KJV Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
KJV Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Clearly Paul is arguing between righteousness by faith and righteousness by works of the Mosaic Law. Also, as I pointed out, Paul turns his attention to the Jews in 2:17 then turns to the Gentiles in Romans 11:13. Take notice that after Paul turns to the Gentiles he only mentions the Law twice, 13:8 and 13:10, and both times he says the same thing, love is the filling of the Law.

James on the other hand is not addressing the Law.


James 2:14-16(KJV)
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

As you can see, I’m letting the apostles define works not me. When we do this we can come to a proper understanding of what is being said.

[glad4mercy]

Butch, please answer the following questions.

1. Regarding the role of works in salvation, please explain the role that works play in a. forgiveness of sins. b. the New Birth.

2. Please explain what you mean by this statement-

You mentioned the forgiveness issue but that isn't at issue what a person initally comes to Christ.

I did agree with some of what you said in some of your posts, but I don't think good works play any role in a. forgiveness of sins. b. the New Birth. c. cleansing from sin. ( and others, but these will suffice for now)

[glad4mercy]

That’s your opinion; there is nothing in the Scriptures that states that. But either way, I’ve made it clear that Salvation is a process. When a person accepts Christ they enter into a relationship with Christ. Baptism obviously follows belief, however, to be saved in the end it is another story

They received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.

Well, you can disagree if you like, however, James is clear, “Faith if it has no works is dead”. That brings us back to the question I’ve been asking and you guys have not been able to give an adequate answer to, how does dead faith produce anything?

I am going to make a statement that should settle the disagreement once and for all.

You are correct in saying that dead faith does not produce salvation. Yet Living faith produces salvation before it produces works. We are saved first, then works follow. Works do not precede salvation, salvation precedes works. The reason God did it this way is so that our faith would be in Him, not partly in Him and partly in our works. I will present two items of evidence that demonstrate that salvation precedes works, the issue of forgiveness and the issue of the Holy Spirit.

1. To demonstrate that salvation precedes works, we only have to look to the issue of forgiveness. The Bible never says that God makes works a condition for being forgiven and cleansed from sin. Faith and Repentance are the only conditions for being forgiven. When He forgives us He also cleanses us, engrafts us in the Vine, and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now some think that God's free grace in forgiveness is a license to then live as we please. Nothing can be further from the truth, now that we are saved we are even more accountable to God. ( see the parable of the Talents and the epistle of Jude )

2. Additionally, salvation must precede works in salvation because any works that we do before salvation are done in the flesh. How do I come to the conclusion? Please read the following scripture which demonstrates this truth.

Romans 8: 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness


This passage demonstrates that there are two types of people, those in the flesh and those in the Spirit. If we are in the flesh, we cannot please God. Yet we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is in us. Now if the Holy Spirit is not in us, it is evident that we are in the flesh, so any works that we may do will be done in the flesh and are incapable of saving us. Yet when we are converted, we receive the Holy Spirit and are no longer in the flesh, and now it is possible to please God. The Holy Spirit does not indwell unsaved people, so we must be saved before our works can have any eternal value.

[Neanias]

We are granted entrance into grace freely, if only we will repent and believe!

But once we have this grace, this power to do the will of God, we must remain steadfast in obedience and following the Lord, following up to the good profession of faith we made.

[Brother Mark]

If all the law can be summed up in one word, love, as Paul stated

Gal 5:13-15

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
NASU

If good deeds are the result of loving our neighbor and loving God, then why do we endeavor to show a difference between deeds done according to the Law and deeds done according to love? Are they not the same?

[glad4mercy]

We are granted entrance into grace freely, if only we will repent and believe!

But once we have this grace, this power to do the will of God, we must remain steadfast in obedience and following the Lord, following up to the good profession of faith we made.

I agree with this statement 100%. The only point of disagreement is the whether works have anything to do with our regeneration. As far as I know, everyone who posted on this thread all agreed that obedience and abiding in Christ is necessary for a believer who has been born again.

[Butch5]

They received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.

Hi Glad,
Yes, that’s true. Does the passage say they were saved? Is God capable of manifesting His Spirit however he chooses to?

I am going to make a statement that should settle the disagreement once and for all.

You are correct in saying that dead faith does not produce salvation. Yet Living faith produces salvation before it produces works. We are saved first, then works follow. Works do not precede salvation, salvation precedes works. The reason God did it this way is so that our faith would be in Him, not partly in Him and partly in our works. I will present two items of evidence that demonstrate that salvation precedes works, the issue of forgiveness and the issue of the Holy Spirit.

1. To demonstrate that salvation precedes works, we only have to look to the issue of forgiveness. The Bible never says that God makes works a condition for being forgiven and cleansed from sin. Faith and Repentance are the only conditions for being forgiven. When He forgives us He also cleanses us, engrafts us in the Vine, and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now some think that God's free grace in forgiveness is a license to then live as we please. Nothing can be further from the truth, now that we are saved we are even more accountable to God. ( see the parable of the Talents and the epistle of Jude )

2. Additionally, salvation must precede works in salvation because any works that we do before salvation are done in the flesh. How do I come to the conclusion? Please read the following scripture which demonstrates this truth.

Romans 8: 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness


This passage demonstrates that there are two types of people, those in the flesh and those in the Spirit. If we are in the flesh, we cannot please God. Yet we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is in us. Now if the Holy Spirit is not in us, it is evident that we are in the flesh, so any works that we may do will be done in the flesh and are incapable of saving us. Yet when we are converted, we receive the Holy Spirit and are no longer in the flesh, and now it is possible to please God. The Holy Spirit does not indwell unsaved people, so we must be saved before our works can have any eternal value.

OK, there are several issues here.

You are correct in saying that dead faith does not produce salvation. Yet Living faith produces salvation before it produces works.

This is a contradiction to what James said. James said without woks faith is dead. If this living faith you speak of has no works it is dead, not living. Without works it’s dead, that means that works “Must” precede life.

We are saved first, then works follow. Works do not precede salvation, salvation precedes works.

If you are speaking of initial salvation agreed, however, I’ve made the point that I am not talking about initial salvation, but, rather being saved in the end.

Faith and Repentance are the only conditions for being forgiven.

According to Scripture there are additional requirements.

Matthew 6:14-15(KJV)
¹⁴For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
¹⁵But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Acts 2:38(KJV)
³⁸Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2. Additionally, salvation must precede works in salvation because any works that we do before salvation are done in the flesh. How do I come to the conclusion? Please read the following scripture which demonstrates this truth.

Romans 8: 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

I hate to keep beating this drum but look at the context. You’ve taken this passage and defined it as “any works we do”. However, as I pointed out in the post to Gadgeteer this verse lies in the middle of Paul’s address to the Jews and is absolutely talking about the Mosaic Law. The flesh here refers to the Jews keeping the Mosaic Law. Paul often refers to the keeping of the Law as the flesh. For example,

Galatians 3:1-3(KJV)
¹O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
²This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
³Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Here’s are reference from just one chapter prior.

Romans 7:5(KJV)
⁵For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

This passage demonstrates that there are two types of people, those in the flesh and those in the Spirit. If we are in the flesh, we cannot please God. Yet we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is in us. Now if the Holy Spirit is not in us, it is evident that we are in the flesh, so any works that we may do will be done in the flesh and are incapable of saving us. Yet when we are converted, we receive the Holy Spirit and are no longer in the flesh, and now it is possible to please God. The Holy Spirit does not indwell unsaved people, so we must be saved before our works can have any eternal value.

As pointed out that passage refers to the Mosaic Law. However, as Paul tells us it is possible to be in the flesh even though one has the Spirit. That was the whole issue in Hebrews that believers were considering a return to the Mosaic Law. He tells his Roman readers this also.

Romans 8:1(KJV)
¹There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You mentioned that we cannot please God if we are in the flesh but only if we are in the Spirit. It seems from your post that one who has the Spirit is in the Spirit. However, Cornelius pleased God before he had the Spirit, as did all of the OT saints, which didn’t have the Spirit.

[Butch5]

Butch, please answer the following questions.

1. Regarding the role of works in salvation, please explain the role that works play in a. forgiveness of sins. b. the New Birth.

I'm not 100% certain in what regard you mean so let address what I think you're asking. I think you're asking what role works play in one coming to Christ. If that is the case, no works are necessary for a person to come to Christ. By coming to Christ I am referring to what you would call the New Birth. I don't hold that the new birth is simply claiming faith in Christ.

Concering forgiveness, what role do works play? Well, I'm guessing that since you said anything we do is a work that you would consider water baptism a work. Therefore that would be the only work necessary for the forgiveness of "Past" sins. Futre sins would be determined by ones walking in the Spirit, and confessing them as John says.

2. Please explain what you mean by this statement-

Butch---You mentioned the forgiveness issue but that isn't at issue what a person initally comes to Christ.

I did agree with some of what you said in some of your posts, but I don't think good works play any role in a. forgiveness of sins. b. the New Birth. c. cleansing from sin. ( and others, but these will suffice for now)

Regarding the quote, what I meant was that works were not necessary for a person to come to Christ for forgiveness.

[glad4mercy]

I'm not 100% certain in what regard you mean so let address what I think you're asking. I think you're asking what role works play in one coming to Christ. If that is the case, no works are necessary for a person to come to Christ. By coming to Christ I am referring to what you would call the New Birth. I don't hold that the new birth is simply claiming faith in Christ.

Concering forgiveness, what role do works play? Well, I'm guessing that since you said anything we do is a work that you would consider water baptism a work. Therefore that would be the only work necessary for the forgiveness of "Past" sins. Futre sins would be determined by ones walking in the Spirit, and confessing them as John says.



Regarding the quote, what I meant was that works were not necessary for a person to come to Christ for forgiveness.

OK, then on these issues I think we are in agreement, except for the Baptism issue. We can agree to disagree on Baptism, as you and Mailmandan and I presented the differing sides of Baptism, and I don't think I want to go any further into that in this thread. Maybe that should be a topic for another thread. The point I was trying to make is that a person doesnt have to do "good works" to come to Christ, and if someone comes to Christ in faith, He saves them. Whether or not they continue in faith and in Christ is a different matter. So you see, Mailmandan, Gadgeteer, and I were not teaching that dead faith saves a person, merely that living faith produces regeneration before it produces work.

Thank you for the interesting discussion. God Bless

[Butch5]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc...). The word justified is also used in a "declarative sense." James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will SHOW you my faith by my works.

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified (KJV) by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right..." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/ (dikaioo - shown to be right) by her deeds."

In Luke 16:14-15, "Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God." The Pharisees belief was that their own goodness was what justified them. This is the very definition of "self-righteousness." But, as Jesus explained, their righteousness was flawed, being an external appearance only. That might be enough to justify them before (deceived) men, but not before God, because He knew their hearts.

James uses dikaioo in this sense - to show to be righteous. And so we see that Abraham's works show that he was righteous. He had been accounted as righteous on the basis of his faith, not his works in Genesis 15:6, but was shown to be righteous in Genesis 22, which is the point that James is making. The harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. What a genuine believer means by salvation through "faith (in Christ) alone" and what James means by "faith only" is NOT the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:1-6; Ephesians 2:8-9); yet faith, if it is genuine, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect harmony*



The role that works play in our salvation is that they are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If there are no works at all, then our faith is bogus. Neither Jesus, James, Paul or Peter taught salvation by works regardless of what "he said, they said" (fallible men) in church history said. Clement of Rome said: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians). Basil said: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ." I could quote these two men for example and say, there you have it. The Roman Catholic church loves to quote the church fathers to support baptismal regeneration and transubstantiation. Did all the church fathers agree on these two doctrines? Are these men infallible? Do they speak for all of Christianity?



I answered the question. When we (truly) believe the gospel, we are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13). The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.. (Romans 8:16). True saving faith then manifests itself by good works produced in the transforming, regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. What other confirmation are you looking for? We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Matthew 27:39-43 (the story of the thief on the cross), we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a change of mind and placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Now how many good works did that thief accomplish on the cross in those final moments before he died? If the thief would have been allowed to live, you would have seen a changed life in the thief demonstrated by good works, but the point is that he was saved through faith, apart from whatever works he would have accomplished later.

Dan,

Due to the time it takes to respond to these posts and since we've been down this road to no avail, I'm going to stick to answering the posts from Glad and Gadgeteer. However, I cannot let the quote by Clement go unaddressed. As is always the case we cannot proof text. You posted the passage from Clement, but he "Didn't" understand the works issue as you do. I'm going to post a couple more quotes from Clement.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Clement of Rome
Take heed, beloved, lest His many kindnesses lead to the condemnation of us all. [For thus it must be] unless we walk worthy of Him, and with one mind do those things which are good and well-pleasing in His sight.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Clement of Rome
Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.

So, you see, Clement understood the Scriptures just as the apostles, that a man is justified by both faith and works. Just as Paul and James state.

Also,Basil was after the Ante-Nicene period. Once the church merged with Constantine they accepted all kinds of error.