Oh, and Israel means "struggles with God".Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci
Deadpan Snarker
Oh, and Israel means "struggles with God".
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Correct (Jacob's wrestling match).
Unhappy is he who mistakes the branch for the tree, the shadow for the substance.
Regular Contributor
***
I guess the definition of what a curse might be here (or what blessing is for that matter), maybe what I am not understanding.
God implicitly told Jeremiah to stop praying and interceding for the nation (Jer. 7:16 and several other places), and that He would not hear his prayer, because God was about to bring down some doom and gloom (curses, in my opinion) upon them.
I am not saying that praying for the nation of Israel is a bad thing, just that the blessing we get for our prayers and financial gifts, is no more or less different than if we pray for America or Egypt or Italy. We should be blessing the household of faith primarily, the Israel of God (Gal. 6:10, 16), if we want a return on our blessing.
Senior Member
No, it means "God prevails" from the hebrew word El meaning God, and the word śârâh which means "to prevail".....ie: God prevails not "struggles with God"
Senior Member
It depends what you are praying for exactly. Pray that they are able to come to the Messiah, and pray for all nations not only one.
In an etimological sense, perhaps. But contextually in Genesis 32:28 you are incorrect. In this context it means "to stive or struggle" not "God prevails." The text even says so -
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;[b] for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
Unhappy is he who mistakes the branch for the tree, the shadow for the substance.
Except that God is explicit in His Word about this and God doesn't go willy-nilly changing definitions.
Unhappy is he who mistakes the branch for the tree, the shadow for the substance.
Senior Member
We are talking about what the name Israel means, not the circumstances of why the name change occurred. Israel means, "God prevails".
Deadpan Snarker
But that was really God cursing Israel, not man.
And there are no Jewish prophets who did not also offer words of consolation.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
Almost no one translates it that way, including Christian bibles.
For example:
NIV Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
NLT "Your name will no longer be Jacob," the man told him. "From now on you will be called Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have won."
ESV Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
NASB He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed."
God's Word Translation The man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel [He Struggles With God], because you have struggled with God and with men-and you have won."
ASV And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Darby And he said, Thy name shall not henceforth be called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast wrestled with God, and with men, and hast prevailed.
ERV And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
The word in question isn't "Sarah" it's "Sarisa", a unique word that only appears in this context.
Use common sense and glean it's meaning from the context.
Jacob just had a fight with some heavenly being. The being says "Your name is Israel, for you have "Sarisa" [unknown word] with God and man, and prevailed".
He just "struggled", so the context tells us what we need to know.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Senior Member
The issue isn't the translation of that verse but what the name Israel means.
Deadpan Snarker
The verse is telling us what the name means.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Regular Contributor
***
I think we are looking at the wrong point. The fact is that he struggled with God as Jacob (supplanter, deceiver, etc.) is obvious, the fact that he as Israel prevailed should be the focus. I believe the point of the struggle was over the nature of Jacob. The fight with the man/angel/God changed that nature to one who prevails with God and man. If it just means struggle, then there is not much difference between Jacob's old nature and his nature after meeting God face to face. Something changed.
Deadpan Snarker
Who said that Jacob's nature changed?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Senior Member
It tells us why the name was changed, not it's actual meaning. The two words that were used to form the new word tells us what it means, God prevails...
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