State of Israel and blessings

[Fenris]

It tells us why the name was changed, not it's actual meaning.

If you read it in Hebrew, it becomes clear that it's telling you what the name means.

[ewq1938]

If you read it in Hebrew, it becomes clear that it's telling you what the name means.

I've read it in Hebrew, and I read the words used to form the name Israel. If you prefer to change it to struggling, go right ahead. I prefer to keep it as originally intended, God prevails.

[Luciano Vinci]

I like the Amplified rendering of these verses:

27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And [in shock of realization, whispering] he said, Jacob [supplanter, schemer, trickster, swindler]!

28 And He said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [supplanter], but Israel [contender with God]; for you have contended and have power with God and with men and have prevailed.

Something happened to Jacob, there was a change of nature with the change of name. He realized what his character really was as Jacob, but God gave him a new name and in essence told him to walk in a new character. He literally changed his walk (by giving him a limp).

[Fenris]

I prefer to keep it as originally intended

Why must people read the bible in a manner that supports their theology, rather than what it actually says?

[ewq1938]

Why must people read the bible in a manner that supports their theology, rather than what it actually says?

Exactly! Why change what is clearly written? Makes no sense to me.

[Fenris]

I like the Amplified rendering of these verses:

27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And [in shock of realization, whispering] he said, Jacob [supplanter, schemer, trickster, swindler]!

28 And He said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [supplanter], but Israel [contender with God]; for you have contended and have power with God and with men and have prevailed.

Jacob means "heel", not "trickster". He was called this because he grasped his brother's heel when he was born.

Also, you don't get to add words in square brackets to the bible because it supports your point.

And you and ewq1938 have to take it up about the meaning of the name "Israel", because you agree with me.

Something happened to Jacob, there was a change of nature with the change of name. He realized what his character really was as Jacob, but God gave him a new name and in essence told him to walk in a new character.

Not supported by biblical text.

He literally changed his walk (by giving him a limp).

Hmm that was because the man struck him.

[Fenris]

Why change what is clearly written?

I don't know. Why?

[ewq1938]

I don't know. Why?

Often it's preconceived beliefs. They were taught something a certain way, even though it's incorrect, and no amount of evidence will often help them see what's correct.

[Luciano Vinci]

Jacob means "heel", not "trickster". He was called this because he grasped his brother's heel when he was born.

Also, you don't get to add words in square brackets to the bible because it supports your point.

And you and ewq1938 have to take it up about the meaning of the name "Israel", because you agree with me.
Not supported by biblical text.

Hmm that was because the man struck him.

I didn't add anything to the text, I was quoting exactly. I just have a hard time believing that you don't see any spiritual application to this encounter. There has to be something that happened to him besides just the fight, he met God face to face. How is something not changed after that?

[keck553]

I like the Amplified rendering of these verses:

27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And [in shock of realization, whispering] he said, Jacob [supplanter, schemer, trickster, swindler]!

28 And He said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [supplanter], but Israel [contender with God]; for you have contended and have power with God and with men and have prevailed.

Something happened to Jacob, there was a change of nature with the change of name. He realized what his character really was as Jacob, but God gave him a new name and in essence told him to walk in a new character. He literally changed his walk (by giving him a limp).

Which further supports the charismatic (new-age emergent) nature of the Amplified "Bible" - another reason not to use it for serious study.

[keck553]

We are talking about what the name Israel means, not the circumstances of why the name change occurred. Israel means, "God prevails".

No, we're talking about GOD renaming Jacob and the specific CONTEXT GOD renamed Jacob. It's also plain in the english translation - because Jacob STRUGGLED with man and God and prevailed. It says that right in the Scriptures. Twisting the context by corrupting the Hebrew text isn't going to make it mean what you want it to mean. One can not steal the author's shoes and change the book and remain credible.

[Luciano Vinci]

Which supports the charismatic nature of the Amplified "Bible"

I have never heard that about the Amplified version, maybe you are right.

However, my point is; from looking at the account, how could one not find any spiritual significance to this encounter. And if name changes have no significance, why does God even do it. Sarai (domineering, bitterness, Queen) to Sarah (noble lady, princess); Abram (father) to Abraham (father of nations).

I just refuse to believe that all Rabbi's are teaching Jacob's name change to Israel as nothing more than just some guy struggling with God. There has to be a message in there somewhere.

[keck553]

I have never heard that about the Amplified version, maybe you are right.

However, my point is; from looking at the account, how could one not find any spiritual significance to this encounter. And if name changes have no significance, why does God even do it. Sarai (domineering, bitterness, Queen) to Sarah (noble lady, princess); Abram (father) to Abraham (father of nations).

I just refuse to believe that all Rabbi's are teaching Jacob's name change to Israel as nothing more than just some guy struggling with God. There has to be a message in there somewhere.

I don't care what the Rabbi's teach. The text in the Bible tells us plainly why God renamed Jacob. In fact all the folks God renamed pointed directly to their earthly position and ministry.

God created the heavens and the earth and all life and that is as much as a reality as God's domain. I have found in my discussions and readings of interpretations and reasoning of some theologians who spiritualize everything in the Bible tend to adhere to the thought patterns expressed by Plato's shadow-cave philosophy which is foreign to God's word and to the eastern thought that penned it under His inspiration.

[Luciano Vinci]

I don't care what the Rabbi's teach.

I am not giving validity to what Rabbi's teach. I was speaking more towards Fenris' (a natural Jew) implication that there is nothing going on in the text but what is literally read, and that he has never been taught by Rabbis that this event has spiritual applications. I may be wrong, since I have never heard a sermon by a Rabbi, but I assume they teach, like pastors do, on the principles learned from Scripture, not just tell the story.

[Fenris]

Sarai (domineering, bitterness, Queen) to Sarah (noble lady, princess)

Sarai does not mean "domineering" or "bitterness".

If you get to create facts you can prove most anything.

I just refuse to believe that all Rabbi's are teaching Jacob's name change to Israel as nothing more than just some guy struggling with God. There has to be a message in there somewhere.

I'll give you the message with my own square brackets, k?

27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob [meaning "heel", a very humble name]

28 And he said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [meaning "heel", a very humble name], but Israel [meaning "struggles with God", a very proud name]; for you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.