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Thread: State of Israel and blessings

  1. #31
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It tells us why the name was changed, not it's actual meaning.
    If you read it in Hebrew, it becomes clear that it's telling you what the name means.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  2. #32

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    If you read it in Hebrew, it becomes clear that it's telling you what the name means.
    I've read it in Hebrew, and I read the words used to form the name Israel. If you prefer to change it to struggling, go right ahead. I prefer to keep it as originally intended, God prevails.

  3. #33
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    I like the Amplified rendering of these verses:

    27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And [in shock of realization, whispering] he said, Jacob [supplanter, schemer, trickster, swindler]!

    28 And He said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [supplanter], but Israel [contender with God]; for you have contended and have power with God and with men and have prevailed.

    Something happened to Jacob, there was a change of nature with the change of name. He realized what his character really was as Jacob, but God gave him a new name and in essence told him to walk in a new character. He literally changed his walk (by giving him a limp).

  4. #34
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I prefer to keep it as originally intended
    Why must people read the bible in a manner that supports their theology, rather than what it actually says?
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  5. #35

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Why must people read the bible in a manner that supports their theology, rather than what it actually says?
    Exactly! Why change what is clearly written? Makes no sense to me.

  6. #36
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I like the Amplified rendering of these verses:

    27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And [in shock of realization, whispering] he said, Jacob [supplanter, schemer, trickster, swindler]!

    28 And He said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [supplanter], but Israel [contender with God]; for you have contended and have power with God and with men and have prevailed.
    Jacob means "heel", not "trickster". He was called this because he grasped his brother's heel when he was born.

    Also, you don't get to add words in square brackets to the bible because it supports your point.

    And you and ewq1938 have to take it up about the meaning of the name "Israel", because you agree with me.
    Something happened to Jacob, there was a change of nature with the change of name. He realized what his character really was as Jacob, but God gave him a new name and in essence told him to walk in a new character.
    Not supported by biblical text.

    He literally changed his walk (by giving him a limp).
    Hmm that was because the man struck him.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  7. #37
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Why change what is clearly written?
    I don't know. Why?
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  8. #38

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I don't know. Why?
    Often it's preconceived beliefs. They were taught something a certain way, even though it's incorrect, and no amount of evidence will often help them see what's correct.

  9. #39
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Jacob means "heel", not "trickster". He was called this because he grasped his brother's heel when he was born.

    Also, you don't get to add words in square brackets to the bible because it supports your point.

    And you and ewq1938 have to take it up about the meaning of the name "Israel", because you agree with me.
    Not supported by biblical text.

    Hmm that was because the man struck him.
    I didn't add anything to the text, I was quoting exactly. I just have a hard time believing that you don't see any spiritual application to this encounter. There has to be something that happened to him besides just the fight, he met God face to face. How is something not changed after that?

  10. #40
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I like the Amplified rendering of these verses:

    27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And [in shock of realization, whispering] he said, Jacob [supplanter, schemer, trickster, swindler]!

    28 And He said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [supplanter], but Israel [contender with God]; for you have contended and have power with God and with men and have prevailed.

    Something happened to Jacob, there was a change of nature with the change of name. He realized what his character really was as Jacob, but God gave him a new name and in essence told him to walk in a new character. He literally changed his walk (by giving him a limp).
    Which further supports the charismatic (new-age emergent) nature of the Amplified "Bible" - another reason not to use it for serious study.

  11. #41
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    We are talking about what the name Israel means, not the circumstances of why the name change occurred. Israel means, "God prevails".
    No, we're talking about GOD renaming Jacob and the specific CONTEXT GOD renamed Jacob. It's also plain in the english translation - because Jacob STRUGGLED with man and God and prevailed. It says that right in the Scriptures. Twisting the context by corrupting the Hebrew text isn't going to make it mean what you want it to mean. One can not steal the author's shoes and change the book and remain credible.

  12. #42
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Which supports the charismatic nature of the Amplified "Bible"
    I have never heard that about the Amplified version, maybe you are right.

    However, my point is; from looking at the account, how could one not find any spiritual significance to this encounter. And if name changes have no significance, why does God even do it. Sarai (domineering, bitterness, Queen) to Sarah (noble lady, princess); Abram (father) to Abraham (father of nations).

    I just refuse to believe that all Rabbi's are teaching Jacob's name change to Israel as nothing more than just some guy struggling with God. There has to be a message in there somewhere.

  13. #43
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I have never heard that about the Amplified version, maybe you are right.

    However, my point is; from looking at the account, how could one not find any spiritual significance to this encounter. And if name changes have no significance, why does God even do it. Sarai (domineering, bitterness, Queen) to Sarah (noble lady, princess); Abram (father) to Abraham (father of nations).

    I just refuse to believe that all Rabbi's are teaching Jacob's name change to Israel as nothing more than just some guy struggling with God. There has to be a message in there somewhere.
    I don't care what the Rabbi's teach. The text in the Bible tells us plainly why God renamed Jacob. In fact all the folks God renamed pointed directly to their earthly position and ministry.

    God created the heavens and the earth and all life and that is as much as a reality as God's domain. I have found in my discussions and readings of interpretations and reasoning of some theologians who spiritualize everything in the Bible tend to adhere to the thought patterns expressed by Plato's shadow-cave philosophy which is foreign to God's word and to the eastern thought that penned it under His inspiration.

  14. #44
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I don't care what the Rabbi's teach.
    I am not giving validity to what Rabbi's teach. I was speaking more towards Fenris' (a natural Jew) implication that there is nothing going on in the text but what is literally read, and that he has never been taught by Rabbis that this event has spiritual applications. I may be wrong, since I have never heard a sermon by a Rabbi, but I assume they teach, like pastors do, on the principles learned from Scripture, not just tell the story.

  15. #45
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    Sarai (domineering, bitterness, Queen) to Sarah (noble lady, princess)
    Sarai does not mean "domineering" or "bitterness".

    If you get to create facts you can prove most anything.
    I just refuse to believe that all Rabbi's are teaching Jacob's name change to Israel as nothing more than just some guy struggling with God. There has to be a message in there somewhere.
    I'll give you the message with my own square brackets, k?

    27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob [meaning "heel", a very humble name]

    28 And he said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [meaning "heel", a very humble name], but Israel [meaning "struggles with God", a very proud name]; for you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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